To the OP: The NT doesn't even have foreign player limits for the sake of the NT, as anyone who has even taken a 5 minute piss in the United States can play for the NT. Why would it matter what MLS does?
Well, since citizenship is required, of course we have a foreign player limit and that limit is 0. You simply being some sort of "nativist" (irony intended) fool does not change that fact.
I do think it hurts. Look at England. Their national team has been getting worse and worse as the foreign percentage in the Premier League has increased. Spain, Germany, and Italy have a low percentage of foreign players and they have won the last 3 world cups. You have to get the in game playing time to get better. Look at how someone like Jamie Vardy fell through the cracks. That kind of thing shouldn't happen but it's too hard for an English footballer to make/start in the Premier League now so Vardy had to take a very circuitous route where the team itself was promoted from the third division to the Premier League in a span of five years. You want aspiring young American soccer players to believe they can make a career out of this in the MLS. Giving too many spots to foreigners limits that expectation and then you have them looking to other sports (NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL) as a career. Look at Odell Beckham jr. gave up on soccer for American Football. You don't want to have dedicated your life to soccer and being one of the top guys at every level and then all of a sudden some German import comes in and takes your spot at the highest level.
I like the idea of rewarding clubs when they're faced with selling players they developed, but do you really believe that professional managers, knowing that if they lose they are fired (and rather quickly) don't take the quality of their players into account? They may make mistakes, I'm sure they do, but they know the players far better than we do, they know what they need out of a position, far more than we do, etc. No manager selecting on anything beyond what will best help his club win lasts very long.
Which means the Americans, and five per team means 100 are starting, have to be better than they were 6 to 10 years ago. How is that not a good thing. Also Kei Kamara is a US citizen, and only a total idiot would have sat him this year. It could well be that the CC plan was to split time, but there was no way that was going to happen with the season he had. You don't bench an MVP candidate.
WTF? Beckham gave up soccer for Am Football because making it in the NFL is easier than making it in the MLS? Ya think? Really? Ok.
its not that simple. 1. 5 americans are not starting on every team. some only have 1 or 2...if any (especially any that will ever play for usmnt) 2. lack of freedom over player movement means players can be stuck not starting even though they are easily easily top 100 americans...take alan Gordon as 1 example (please don't pick that example apart). mcienenry shouldn't be the reason kamara sits....my point is just that jack mac is a top-40 mls forward who isn't starting for someone and should be. you might have "100 American starters" in MLS...but those 100 are not the "best 100 americans"...the two groups would overlap a lot more with free agency. 3. like I said, when a club has invested heavily at a young cheap player's position, the coaches hands are tied. its the same sort of BS yanks in Europe face i.e. discrimination against americans/too many players-not enough spots...only now, its in MLS too.....i.e. McNamara, mullins, diskerud...vs .pirlo, lampard...even if the 2 players are roughly equal....heck, even if the young, cheap player is better the DP will start! poku vs lampard 4. increased competition is better...but when players are stuck on whatever team they are stuck on...too many are left to the whims of the football gods unnecessarily. 1 lost player is 1 too many. in any other league, a player can choose what team to sign for....not in MLS. this is crucial...it makes it artificially hard to succeed in MLS, pointlessly. Mullins, for instance, is stuck behind a DP...doesn't mean ha cant be an MLS starter. instead, he's just wasting valuable and short developmental time so NYCFC can play in yankee stadium. look at mullins points/minute...no way he cant start in MLS....but no player in his salary range will ever unseat one in Villa's tax bracket....marketing concerns trump on field concerns anyway!.......basically, its not merely the number of americans...its whats happening to key americans at key points in their development. don't tell me villareal isn't good enough to play in MLS....last season, he barely did. playing time does not = quality ....especially not in any absolute sense....if a player wants to stay on the bench for galaxy, fine...let them....but if theyd prefer to go to Colorado and start...then let them, too. I don't give a sh*t about parity or competitive balance when it comes to which players get playing time...I want the best prospcets on the field first and foremost.....there's a reason we are in a "gap in generations" on the usmnt....its because of all the influx of "talent" into MLS and what that has meant to prospects developing (or not)
First, Vardy was a professional with other lower league clubs, scoring goals for fun. He was not unknown. He just wasn't judged to be worth a top league spot. It was probably a mistake, but there is no system in which mistakes will not be made. and, in this case, is it a mistake and he would have recreated this form with another club, or is this a perfect matchup of club and player, through which both benefit? And you don't want crap American players to make a career out of it, you want the best 11 on the field that you can get, and if they are American, great. If not, great. A german import doesn't "take" a job from an US player, he earns it. the US player has the same chance to earn it. That's what you want from your league, the chance for players to prove themselves against the highest level of competition, in practice day after day.
1. 5 are not starting on every team, at SKC it's 8, and DD is pursuing US citizenship. Whether or not some will ever play for the USMNT can't be an issue, clubs do and must create lineups that serve their needs. the fact that Espinoza at SKC plays for the Honduran national team doesn't affect the fact that, being from Denver, he is American and cannot and should not count as a foreign player, or go against a limit. Same applies to Kamara at CC, etc. 2. that's impossible. So, teams that with, say, three great CBs should, if they decide to start two foreign nationals, be forced to trade the American they would otherwise keep on the bench? 3. Yanks are not discriminated against over here. If they aren't good enough to start, they don't. But no one over here sits better players, who would give them a better chance to keep their jobs. FWIW the most expensive player in the history of my club is an American. The problem we have is that the numbers aren't that good, so the sample size sucks. You cannot draw conclusions off it. 4. that's a good point, MLS needs more FA, but I believe that will come. But Villarreal is 22, and starting for him doesn't mean starting anywhere, it means beating out Keane. He should not be starting in front of Keane at this point. Here's what US soccer needs: Players that force players like Keane to the bench. that never comes if they are handed starting slots.
Your point on free agency is key. We are losing a good portion of an entire generation of players because they aren't getting first team minutes until they hit 25-26 and they can't do anything about it unless they are willing to emigrate. People keep saying Morris will get plenty of minutes in Seattle but if he's gone on national team duty at the same time Dempsey I don't see where all these minutes are coming from.
well, first off...I should say I am a usmnt follower before MLS. I watch MLS with one eye on the usmnt.... so, my view of MLS is skewed in that sense. "American" means "us-eligible" in my book...for how I view MLS (not politically). I don't give a*&^* if Espinoza and kamara are "American" if they play for foreign national teams. it seems you are more of a club-first fan and that's where our differences come from. 1. yeah a handful of teams slant American - NE, DC, SKC, DAL....(which a lot of times seems to be indicative of cheapness more than anything, tbh) the majority slant the other way and would clearly go all foreign if given the option. 2.not forced. I don't like "trading"....I prefer the way the entire rest of the world does it....players choose what team they sign for. at the very least, let players have some say in the whole thing. to me, it strikes me as a bit hypocritical how "teams" own players rights when it suits mls but then MLS owns player contracts and everything is single-entity when it suits MLS. to me, a single-entity model...kinda trumps the mere possibility of "individual clubs" ....MLS is more of a franchise system of the same brand and one big club. if, we as fans, have to sacrifice true competitiveness for single-entity, American players should at least be put in the best positions career-wise, not consistently less than optimal ones. in other words, I would prefer the league shuffling the best prospects around to the best club situations on a yearly basis, with an eye towards development than the current setup. as it is, its better strategy for a team to let a good young prospect rot on their bench than loan them to another MLS club....which is wacked out. the reason teams don't loan players getting no palying time....isn't always because they aren't good enough to play in MSL...a lot of times its because they actually are good enough to make a difference on the field! 3.we just disagree. I think lower salary players are not competing on an even playing field with higher-priced teammates for playing time...especially DP's. a lot are american but it also happens to foreign prospects too....poku was better than Lampard this year if you ask me...but lampard was the "starter" despite Kreis losing his job over it, for example. sample -size is irrelevant: No club can bench DP-players in MLS....it happens maybe 1 in 20 times... 4. villareal isn't competing with Keane. he's a left winger/midfielder....he's more competing with zardes. I'm not even personally convinced zardes is a better left winger than villareal, tbh. and I'm definitely not convinced villareal isn't a top 20 left winger in MLS...but he's not starting or getting minutes and he's losing invaluable developmental time and missing his window to reach the top of the game.....it's forced mediocrity...the hallmark of MLS so far. it's not about "being handed a slot"...its that he is clearly good enough to be a starting mls winger but isn't starting! for what though? whats the benefit? "increased competition for spots"? so MLS can keep up the illusion that individual clubs are competing against each other (when they are all in fact communally cooperating). that's not making him a better player. and it never will. its communism at its finest....the biggest reason people hate on communism is because they say it stifles individual opportunity for achievement, right??? bottomline: I prefer they drop the charade of "individual clubs" and let player development take precedence. I know I'm in the minority and it will not happen....but it's still my preference.
Decreasing the number of international slots will not necessarily increase the number of USMNT-eligible players in MLS. Teams will be more aggressive with obtaining Green Cards for their DPs and other similarly situated players who have already been capped by other NTs. You'll also see an increase in the number of YAs enticed to play in MLS. They will have a greater market value in the US because of their passports and their marketability (especially if already capped by the US).
First, thanks for the correction, I was looking at Villarreal subbing in for Keane and thinking it was like for like, but must have been tactical. But that means he's competing with Zardes, another young US player. What possible motivation would Bruce Arena have for sitting one young prospect who is better than another young prospect? I am completely club over country in my soccer, so American means what it actually means, American, a US citizen. And no, people tend to "hate on communism" for a wide range of reasons, but in no way is MLS "communist." The workers do not control the means of production. It is not a society without class distinction. Your notion of a willing sharing of resources would work into that theory, though (which is why it won't happen, MLS is capitalist to a fault). I disagree with the notion that no club can bench DPs in MLS, but only because the club I follow most closely does it. In fact, SKC has done it consistently (Beiler, Bravo, Lopez and I'm not sure that Zusi isn't next). It's about performance. Now, money almost always flows to talent, and talent to money, so they tend to go hand in hand. But on the larger issue, what you're talking about isn't how professional sports works, or can work. Clubs are out to further the aims of the club. By doing so they can improve a national team, but it is not and should not be a primary goal.
they should decrease it to help the USMNT. ---------------------------------Akinola------------------------------------------------- --Chris Mueller------------Gianluca Busio----------------Efrain Alvarez----- (Josh Perez) (Jackson yueill) (Andrew Carleton) ----------------Chris Durkin—Keaton Parks--------- (juan Pablo torres) (eryk Williamson) (derrick jones) George Bello---donovan pines----Mark McKenzie-----------Marco Farfan (jaylin Lindsey) ------------------------ before this past weekend the above players only had 8 COMBINED starts this season out of a possible 100+...and a bunch of these guys started this week in MLS and made whoscored team of the week of usa players....or had game winning goals/assists etc also look at this article: http://americansoccernow.com/articl...stic-u-23-options-for-2020-olympic-qualifying most of the domestic options for USA U23 are not starting or even playing much at all for their MLS teams.....less foreign players will mean these porspects will be on the field more.....and actually have a chance of moving from U23 to full USMNT. no-brainer.
The disconnect is that due to US labor laws, players with green cards aren't counted as foreign players in the US. That's not changing. So for FC Dallas, most of the players that folks think are foreign aren't counted as foreign. Michael Barrios has a green card, for instance. So changing the foreign player limits really does nothing when its so easy for clubs to get green cards for their players. What has to change is the attitudes of coaches and front office personnel to give their young players more opportunities. And we're seeing that happen at a bunch of clubs (Philly, RSL, Dallas, etc.) as the path from the DA to the ULS/reserve teams to the first team MLS club is being developed. The young players coming into the league are better than they've been before. Paxton Pomykal is more talented and more "MLS ready" than Bryan Leyva and Danny Garcia before him. Jesus Ferreira is more "MLS ready" than Ruben Luna and Coy Craft before him. Brenden Aaronson is a more "MLS ready" than Zach Pfeffer before him. There are tons of examples. There's a lot to be excited about with the number of young American players currently getting minutes in MLS. The shift is already happening. We don't need to set more aggressive foreign player limits, which as stated above won't change anything anyway. Does the Bundesliga have foreign player limits? No. And by the way, the market is forcing MLS clubs to shift. Not MLS HQ. MLS clubs like RSL are losing kids from their academies like Sebastian Soto (Hannover), Taylor Booth (Bayern), and Richie Ledesma (PSV) on free transfers. How can they try to stem this tide? By providing more and more first team opportunities to young players. FCD learned their lesson on this years ago when Weston McKennie left for Schalke on a free transfer. Everything that FCD has done since (Bayern Munich relationship, founding of NTSC in the USL, aggressive ramping up of minutes for youngsters on their first team, naming popular academy coach Luchi Gonzalez to the head coach position, etc.).................can be seen as a response to that.
I agree there has been a shift and it is very encouraging....I think MLS as a whole now gets that the young players they have are either gone on free transfers or they are going to potentially be lucrative assets that they can sell abroad....given the choice...it is much more beneficial to play those players and the sell them than let them leave for nothing. A big thing to me is that some MLS teams and some coaches are clearly anti-domestic....many clubs like FCD, NYRB SKC RSL are clearly on the right path...but then you have clubs like MTL, MINN, ORL, NYC....who seem like they have decided not to play any domestic youth at all. how can this be changed? I do think that lowering the # of intl slots would help more domestic players get on the field.....the barrios' can only get green cards after years in MLS...so if they can never come they can never get one in the first place....the point isn't to make zero foreigners in MLS...but to make sure the promising domestic players in MLS actually get a chance the way they used to. for a lot of players it is a 2-3 year progression to get to where they could be....forcing debutants to be better than TAM/DP players from day 1 is a recipe for exactly what we are seeing now....a large % of the domestic U23 pool with little experience on the field....which, given the relative quality of the league, makes zero sense.
Its worth remembering that have of the league has been founded since 2011. Half of the league is less than 10 years old. So they're just figuring out what they're doing with regards to their academies. And you have to get domestic players by going thru your academy, because there are few MLS-level domestic players available in the draft. In fact, this year FIRST round draft picks weren't offered contracts by clubs. I mean, what exactly are we expecting Minnesota to have built since they joined the league in 2017? That's not the kind of club that we should be complaining about. There are long-standing MLS clubs in big markets that struggle with this. Houston stands out. Also worth noting that in the European leagues there are some clubs that focus on player development and domestic development. And there are others that don't. If you're in England, Southampton focuses on player development. How many homegrown domestic players does Man City use? They give Phil Foden some minutes here and there. So as long as we get to the point that a healthy portion of the league is engaged, then we're in good shape. And there are clubs coming up behind the first wave that are doing some good things. Seattle has a lot of good young players in their academy that are probably a year or two away. They're starting to impact the USL team now.
MINN has only been around for a few seasons...but given MLS' collective control over what happens and that MLS owns player cotnracts etc...I think it is fair to hold individual culbs accountable from a collective-perspective....MLS as a whole needs to help its clubs in this, in my opinion. Unfortunately a club like DC United thinks it is better off to play a Durkin once in a while (or barely at all) than to let him go play every game on a team like MINN or Colorado...and I guess they have a point, from a selfish perspective. But when they are turning down offers from clubs like leverkusen and benfica...AND THEN don't play the player much at all...it is certainly frustrating from a USMNT perspective. to me there's enough "dead wood" laying around on other team's rosters - players they aren't using - to supplelement what the new teams havent built yet. I get it why those players don't get loaned out or transferred within the league but it is frustrating to watch prospects just rot on the bench for teams that won't sell them....they are too valuable to sell but not good enough to play....kinda hard to make sense of that....a la EPB, Carleton, Durkin, etc..... I agree that there's a lot ot be encouraged by....but the successes of NYRB, Dallas etc make me think the same model could be in place in every MLS club and THEN the USMNT would be primed to leap forward big-time. Maybe there could be some kind of incentive or new rule put in place to entice the HOU, NYC, etc of the world to jump in to the domestic talent production frenzy that other MLS clubs seem to be on?
Wat What I would argue is that the model at NYRB, FCD, etc. took years to build. The Dallas academy is where it is today because of investments they started to make in 2007. [2007 is when the DA was founded and the homegrown initiative was installed. Prior to that academies were basically community outreach programs.] FCD hired Oscar Pareja to build and develop the academy them. New York and RSL were other early adopters. So those clubs are reaping the rewards. There are certainly clubs that should be doing MUCH better. DCU is one of them. Wanna know a not-so-secret. The clubs that gave the most minutes to homegrown players made the playoffs last season (Philly, Dallas, RSL, New York, SKC). So the BEST way to convince the stragglers to ramp up investment is to show them that results on the field and in the pocket book are impacted. Cuz FCD didn't just make the playoffs, they also impacted their pocket book by selling Chris Richards for a ton of money. It all keeps feeding and building on itself. They'll probably sell Pomykal and Cannon next. Then the next generation like US youth internationals Thomas Roberts and Bryan Reynolds take a step up the depth chart. What we need is a bunch of clubs to copy what FCD, RSL, Philly, etc. are doing. And what we desperately need is the clubs in Southern California, the mecca of youth soccer, to get their stuff together. The Galaxy just had to fire their academy coach, Brian Kleiban. WHAT A MESS! You mentioned DCU as another straggler and they certainly are. The Durkin situation is discussed at length on the US youth boards. But you know what? The Durkin situation is going to be the next batch of elite youngsters LESS likely to sign with them. Griffin Yow did, but we'll see about others.
Most U23 players for all of the other countries in world aren't getting significant minutes either. The ones who are, are on senior national teams. Really? Who? Give examples. The league mandates that every team must have an academy, and also must have at the very least an affiliation with a USL club for player development. Now, are some organizations better at this than others? Certainly, yet the same can be said for clubs and leagues all over the world! Playing time isn't just handed out like food at a soup kitchen. Playing time has to be earned. Newsflash, dominating games and looking great against players your own age doesn't guarantee that a player will do the same as a professional or even against older players. This is real life, not a game of Football Manager or FIFA. Pro sports is a business, get over it. These teams are investing and spending millions of dollars per year on player development. If they decide that a another team's offer for one of their players does not meet their valuation, they have every right to refuse. They have a duty & responsibility to their organization to refuse. No, it can't. Not every team is located in a talent rich area. The model that RBNY & FCD are using works for them because they are located in talent rich areas & they spend millions of dollars on their programs every year. It's starting to work for Philly because they spend more money on their academy then any other MLS team does per year. We're talking about the less than 1% of players here that go on to play professional sports. The percentage of those players who go on to play at the international level is even smaller. Just how many professional level players, let alone international class players,do you believe are going to come out of Columbus, Cincinnati and Portland? They are getting a chance though. The ones who are good enough are getting minutes. You just don't pay attention and aren't watching. The younger players are getting minutes in USL, and the ones who are good enough progress to MLS. It's happening today and has been happening for years now.
there has been a bit more emphasis on playing young players this season i see...but it is still not enough. and i just flat out disagree with you that the only reason a young player isn't playing is based on readiness....that is just a ridiculous idea, in my opinion. the culture at some clubs and in some coaches minds is just not very "play your kids" friendly. some coaches just arent going to play a player until he's "earned it"...some will. If marsch wasnt smart enough to sell klesjtan and mccarty - tyler adams never would be in the champions league right now cuz those guys would still be the starters at RBNY - and that would have ZERO to do with anything about Tyler Adams and his readiness. it was a combination of readiness and vision from management. both were necessary. its like the debate of nature vs nurture....its a mix of both not one or the other.
Klesjtan had NOTHING to do with Adams. Adams actually played in the same lineup as Klesjtan for a season. They sold Klesjtan to make room for Kaku. Their style of play dictates that they have younger players. If RB didn't feel that Adams was ready to make the leap to MLS starter do you honestly believe that they would have sold McCarty? And for the love of god STOP watching merely "High Light Videos" will ya? EVERY player looks amazing in a high light video!!!! How do those players look the other 87 minutes of game though? Do they make themselves available as an outlet for other players to get out of trouble? Do they make smart runs? Do they make the correct play? How about you watch ENTIRE games? Better yet, get out of your room and actually attend a game in person.
Far more important than limiting international slots is a continue expansion of both MLS and USL. England has 20 premier league teams and countless lower division teams in an area 1/3 the size of California (albeit with a larger population than California). The continental US can certainly support more 24 mls teams and 36 USL teams. Considering MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL all have 30+ teams, it stands to reason that MLS should eventually be able to easily support 30+ teams, if not more. As the number of teams grows (especially at the base and in the middle of the pyramid), the supply and quality of players ready for the top of the pyramid will also increase. Right now, we see teams beginning to use their USL teams to get their young players ready for integration into the first team. Without that, it is a huge jump. Another parallel benefit I expect, as USL continues to grow, is an increase in non affiliated USL teams selling their best players to MLS and or possibly to Europe. (Don't know if any sales have been made to this point but expect that it is inevitable).
your smugness is presumptuous....and ignorant. re pomykal: I watched his every touch video....which seemed like a highlight video b/c almost every touch he had was class. are you arguing that every touch videos are not indicative of a player's performance?? re:adams - NYRB clearly made a organizational shift towards "unproven" homegrowns and young players and away from "proven" vets....klestjan and mccarty's trades were milestones in that shift. most observers thought those trades were questionable at best. they flew in the face of what most MLS people see/saw as the blueprint - expensive (usually foreign) DPs/TAM players, supplemented by complementary and supporting domestic players.....only to be proven right in the end! its not just adams - its the rest of the squad too - its sean davis, etienne, muyl, kaku, duncan, mines, etc.... that leap of faith that NYRB took was rare and took vision. not many other MLS teams make that move. most MLS teams would go with conventional wisdom and ride out with McCarty and Klestjan until the wheels fell off....stunting the development of their young players but likely maintaining a decent team. instead, NYRB set themselves up for true growth by taking a risk...a wise one that paid off. there is cultural environment in MLS that makes such a leap of faith unlikely. it makes it hard for young unproven players to break through and get a chance. the salary budget rules in MLS stack the deck against lower salary players' chances of establishing themselves. If NYRB still had Klesjtan and Mccarty they would probably still be starters and the younger players like muyl, adams and davis etc....would not have had the chances that they have had..and wouldnt have deveoped as much as they did.... from the outside it would have been too easy to say that those young players "weren't ready" "werent good enough" 'need to earn it" etc....If NYRB had made the decision to keep their stalwarts...their young players still wuldve been good enough....they just wouldn't have had the opportunity. this isn't only about NYRB...it is about every team in MLS. most aren't rolling out teh red carpet for their youth like the RECORD-SETTING red bulls did....far from it.....but if they did....they would likely benefit....as the teams at the bottom of the standings lately generally have poor records of integrating youth into their squads...... the lessons to be learned from the case of the recent red bulls are so clear...but apparently many aren't taking heed.
Yup. That pathway from the DA (only founded in 2007) to the USL reserve teams (which are only now being formed at most clubs) to the first team is really critical. That missing piece of the USL level really hurt 18-22 year olds over the past 10 years. That has manifested itself clearly in the difficulty the US has had in qualifying for the Olympics.................... I also want to bring up a simple point. MLS clubs have two principle priorities: A) Become successful and profitable businesses B) Win trophies So any discussion of an issue we'd like to see changed has to have an impact on those two categories. I doubt that "developing players for the USMNT" is in the business plan for a single MLS team. What is in the business plan for MLS clubs is to develop young players to impact one of those two categories above. And when you look at a club like NYRB, you can see the happy merging of the two. NYRB won a Supporter's Shield with Tyler Adams patrolling the midfield, and then sold him to Germany. Both goals impacted. The impact that had on the USMNT was a happy byproduct. Does the LA Galaxy care whether Efrain Alvarez plays for the USMNT or Mexico? I doubt it. What they care about is his impact on the LA Galaxy.