should 16 teams Copa America continues ?

Discussion in 'Copa América Centenario 2016' started by w-inds., Jun 27, 2016.

  1. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    #26 Unak78, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
    We already play two Gold Cups per cycle so this would hardly require ending the Gold Cup, simply eliminating the needless second Gold Cup.

    I don't know why this is discussed in such zero-sum terms. First off we already play 2 Gold Cups, so they'll still have ample opportunity for international football if we drop the second tournament. Qualification to CONCACAF's 6 spots at Copa America can be determined by Gold Cup finish, giving every team in CONCACAF a fair chance to go to that tournament as well.

    Owing to CONMEBOL's 10 team membership, the Copa America is never for CONMEBOL teams only. 2 guest teams, usually from CONCACAF, are always invited to round out the numbers. The only thing this changes is the number of invitees and allows CONMEBOL an opportunity to grow the size, scope and profitability of their tournament, as UEFA has done with their own, in the only manner that they possibly can. In this manner it helps CONMEBOL.

    As for simply creating a new tournament, who would have any interest in what would likely be a bloated, watered down beast of a tourney that would have far more difficulty getting permanently placed on the FIFA calendar than this did; likely be of little to no value to the South American players who will have already played, or be about to play the Copa America, and thus be of zero value to me as a fan and no more beneficial competitively to the USMNT or Mexico than SuperLiga was to MLS clubs years ago. It will be essentially be a money grab. I like my money grabs to carry intrinsic value.
     
  2. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    To the question of this thread :

    I hope not.
    Copa America should be restricted only for Conmebol teams. No invited participating teams as well.

    If teams from Concacaf, really want to take part in it, it's easy :
    first quit from Concacaf.........., then join Conmebol.

    Of course they get the "bonus" of not only participating and eventually hosting Copa America, but they also get the benefit of participating in Conmebol WC qualifiers, as well (that's a huge amount of games against lots of worthy opponents).
     
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  3. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    #28 Unak78, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
    ...so a 10 team tournament...

    ...I have a better idea... CONCACAF sides could just wait until the next Copa America where CONMEBOL will probably invite 2 of them again...

    This isn't the first time they've invited CONCACAF teams nor is it remotely close to the last. Hell they invited 3 back in '99 when Honduras was shuffled in so fast that they barely had time to find their boots because Argentina pulled out and they were needed to essentially save the tournament. Noone wants to organize a 10 team tournament when you can put together 12 teams. And why stop there? Why not split the cut of the wealthiest nation in the world; one of the best followed teams in this hemisphere who's fans throw money at it as though they were the team that has been secretly harboring the Jules Rimet all these years, all while increasing the overall scope of the tourney to the point that might propel better tv money from Sky, ESPN, Fox, BeIn,...

    It's all the same because it's not your job organize it and max it's profits. Don't forget, CONCACAF didn't go to CONMEBOL to pitch this thing, it was the other way aroud. CONMEBOL officials are probably as corrupt as ours and the rest of the lot, but even honest officials would be lying if they told you they didn't envy the way UEFA can expand the Euro while marketing it as the World Cup Beta...


    The only reason this may not happen is if CONCACAF demands too much of the profits. Control of profits is probably part of the reason Gulati and Co would prefer creating a separate tourney that could be split 50-50. However, I'd bet even the 33% cut CCCAF got off of this dwarves anything they ever get, have gotten or ever will get from 100% of any Gold Cup. Not to mention that CCCAF admit that they probably would have asked for even more TV money had they known how big this would end up being.
     
  4. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    YES.
    Although, could be more, if more teams join in.

    Nope, you are wrong.
    Concacaf teams (although I should really say Mexico and maybe the USA), have been asking for more involvement almost since the day they got invited the first time.
    They were never heard before, because at Conmebol, no one gave any credit to their plea.

    You are right, on regards to the corrupt officials, and only when they saw the opportunity to enrich themselves beyond anything imaginable before, is that they paved the way for teams from Concacaf, to get that "involvement" they always wanted.
    Little they knew, that only after a few months, everything would explode on their faces
     
  5. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    #30 HomietheClown, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
    That is all fine and dandy...
    .... but when those teams play games here they bring more people to the gates in the USA than the CONCACAF teams (other than Mexico and USA) that qualified to this Centenario. Their ethnic populations are larger within our borders than Costa Rica and Haiti. That is the point.
     
  6. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    #31 Unak78, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2016
    Are you kidding me? So CONCACAF came up with the idea for the Copa America Centenario? Is that what you're saying? When did CONCACAF suggested this? By "this", I literally mean this competition. Remember, until last year, the confederation was essentially run by T&T, who wanted no part of CONMEBOL. The only countries in CONCACAF who had any reason to want in, already had the ability to play in any competition that they wanted. And of the two, the US pretty much ignored CONMEBOL competitions to concentrate on improving in CONCACAF. Only Mexico showed inclination of pushing for more involvement in CONMEBOL. Mexico isn't CONCACAF. I've said before that Mexico wants to jump to CONMEBOL. And sure the fans in the US like myself would like this but who are we?

    So let's get the story straight. This tournament... was CONMEBOL's idea. They announced this thing as a "done deal" before they even told CONCACAF what was going on. Of course they rightly figured that CONCACAF wasn't going to turn it down, but CONCACAF had no idea at the time and the US was told that they were going to host a competition without even being asked. This was news to the USSF, but of course they like money as much as South Americans. You won't find a single article or piece of news that states otherwise.

    They were already involved. Mexico pretty much plays... strike that- they play in every single CONMEBOL competition already. What would they be getting the way paved for? The US and Mexico pretty much already had carte blanche to play in Copa America any time they want.
     
  7. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    You can believe whatever you want. I don't pretend to convince you, on the contrary. But as I told you, both the USA and mexico have wnted to get involved into CA, since very long ago. At some point when Chile still didn't have the hosting rights to the 2015 edition, Mexico was attempting to be themselves whom would host it, even if they still held no rights on even pretending to be hosts of it.
    Specifically CAC, is just something that came through, only after Chile got those rights to host 2015, after the brazilian FA accepted to switch dates with the chilean FA, and as said before, was just an idea that happened in the minds of lots of our dirty corrupt officials (by saying "our", I'm refering to both, Concacaf and Conmebol), as since the begining this idea came up, Concacaf officials werew in it as well, including of course the USA (take in account that at those days the general secretary of Concacaf was that US fatso that looks like Santa Clos, whom happened to afterwards be the whistleblower for the FBI, whom put all of this issue at the dept of Justice, as the "cherry of the pie", of their whole case against corruption activities regarding FIFA).
     
  8. fafaco

    fafaco Member+

    Jun 16, 2015
    Country:
    Ecuador
    Mexico Yes.. USA No... I'm used to Mexico participating in Conmebol Competitions like Copa America and Copa Libertadores.. it's normal to me.. the reason Mexico participates in Our Tournaments is because, other than South American teams, Mexico are the next best Latin American Team.. think about it.. besides the South American Nations, who else is the best Latin American Team? Exactly, it's Mexico! When I think of Latin American Futbol, the first thing that comes to my mind are the 10 Conmebol teams and Mexico.. 10 plus 1.. so that's 11 teams.. it's always been those 11 teams.. South America and Mexico.. I think Mexico should join our Confederation ( Conmebol ) and officially be one of us... Copa America and Copa Libertadores wouldn't be the same, without Mexico.. Now the USA on the other hand, they usually turn down invitations, because of scheduling conflicts with MLS.. which means, USA never had a major presence in Copa America.. Besides CA2016, the last CA the USA took part in, was CA2007..
     
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  9. sidspaceman

    sidspaceman Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 20, 2002
    AMÉRICA DE CALI
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Country:
    Colombia
    Lol at the USA wanting to help Concacaf all that crook Blazer wanted was to line his own pockets.
     
  10. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    #35 Unak78, Jul 4, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2016
    You and Rickdog need to talk to one another, according to him, the USA's been beating down CONMEBOL's door. I can understand your reasoning though, since it's actually based on facts. But otherwise I'm done arguing with Rickdog...
     
  11. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    #36 Unak78, Jul 4, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2016
    ...did you just happen to miss that word...

    For instance, "improving in CONCACAF" and "improving CONCACAF" have entirely different meanings.
    I even pointed out how much the USSF liked money. Calm down, I never said a thing about the USA helping CONCACAF... next time slow down and read what I actually said.
     
  12. sidspaceman

    sidspaceman Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 20, 2002
    AMÉRICA DE CALI
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Country:
    Colombia
    My bad i misread it.
     
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  13. NaBUru38

    NaBUru38 Member

    Mar 8, 2016
    Las Canteras, Uruguay
    Club:
    Club Nacional de Football
    Clubs should stop playing the International Champions Cup,
     
  14. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    "C£ub$ $hou£d $top p£aying th€ Int€rnationa£ Champion$ Cup" ?

     
  15. LoreBSC

    LoreBSC Member

    Jun 9, 2016
    Union City NJ
    Club:
    Barcelona Guayaquil
    Its simple, Conmebol provides the talent and the spectacle, Concacaf brings the TV ratings, There are 33 million Mexicans in US they are huge soccer fans, Sponsors pay huge money for TV ads in sporting events in American TV networks.
     
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  16. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    Nigeria
    Not to mention probably an equal number of combined immigrants from other countries around the world including S. America.
     
  17. fafaco

    fafaco Member+

    Jun 16, 2015
    Country:
    Ecuador
    Yup.. but also don't forget about the South Americans that already live in the states..
     
  18. ATLfirefan

    ATLfirefan Member

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 8, 2005
    Dacula, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    I really think that both confederations have a lot to gain by having an quadrennial Championships of the Americas (or whatever). There could be a LOT more money and it's a great way to increase the competition for both confeds. Yes, even CONMEBOL could benefit from playing a tournament with USA, Mexico, Costa Rica, Jamaica and others.
     
  19. Loco

    Loco Member

    May 1, 2005
    Simple answer; no, because it means that there would never be a representative of CONCACAF in the Confederations Cup.

    If the converse to this is; well, let's have Copa America one year (every four), a Gold Cup one year (every four year) and the 16 team format in an alternative year, then No again. Because that would mean too many games for players. Potentially, you could have players that won't have a summer off. For example, Chile played in the summer of 2015, the summer of 2016, will now also play in summer of 2017 (confederations cup), and provided they qualify for the WC, Chilean international players will also play in the summer of 2018 (WC). And the following year, will play in summer of 2019 (Copa America). - this means, that players like Alexi Sanchez-Vidal & co will play 5 summers in a row without a summer off- that's too many games. Its fair to the players or the clubs.

    The only way to do is to get rid of Copa America & Gold Cup, and just have one joint tournament to decide the representative for the Confederation Cup. But again, CONCACAF representative in the Conf. Cup will be very rare. I don't think sponsors want that.

    So for all that make the argument of "more money" and more "viewers" - that would be true only for the 16 team tournament, but not for the Confederation Cup
     
  20. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    It would mean too many games for a couple teams that play in the Confederations Cup.
    The upside is there will be more competitive matches for Federations and managers to fine tune their teams before World Cup years. Which could give them the upper hand if/ when their teams make the World Cup.

    And of course as most people are pointing out the money may just be just too tempting to turn down.
     
  21. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    #46 HomietheClown, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    Also, National team Managers are not stupid. Pizzi knows he can't ride Sanchez and Vidal like mules in the Confederations Cup summer because the more important matches are in August for qualifying to 2018.

    I mean if he was truly in tune with things and knows the pulse of his team he will rest one or both of Vidal and Sanchez during a group match against the likes of New Zealand or whoever they may face in summer of the Confederations Cup 2017 and pace things accordingly.

    I really don't buy the summers off argument. Never have and never will. Many Players want to play for their National teams and win Cups during the summer. It is an honor and a privilege to do so.
     
  22. Loco

    Loco Member

    May 1, 2005
    It's not just about the players, the power is with the clubs. The clubs won't continue to release players for summer tournaments. The negotiations between clubs and national teams is constant and painful -

    The only way the 16 team tournament is; (a) no more Copa & Gold cup, and (b) CONCACAF will have to accept that most likely, they won't have a rep in the Confederation Cup any time soon (which btw, will drastically reduce viewership in N America)
     
  23. svelten

    svelten Member

    Jun 22, 2009
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    That won't happen in any universe; both FIFA and CONCACAF would want a rep in the Confed cup, no matter how "gamed" it is. Even OFC gets a spot (Tahiti. TAHITI. And Papua New Guinea if not for bad penalties luck). The best placed CONCACAF nation, even if every single one of them is out 0-3 in the group stages will be given a spot should your combined tournament scenario play out. It doesn't even make sense otherwise - they won't suddenly have a 7 team tournament
     
  24. Loco

    Loco Member

    May 1, 2005
    So then its, Copa America & Gold Cup same year, then next year the 16 game tournament, then Confed Cup with representatives of both Copa America & Gold Cup winner-

    So, why is the 16 game tournament played? And I still don't think that the big clubs in Europe will go for this (which pay millions of dollars to about 90% of the players in Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil & Colombia - and a lot of other players)
     
  25. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    They already do allow players to play in two CONCACAF Gold Cups and in two African Cups per World Cup Cycle.
    IT is only fair they allow it for this proposed Cup too.
     

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