Si, para mi la liga italiana sigue siendo mas, bastante mas. Juventus, Milan, Inter, Roma... solo el Bayer se les acerca (por detras). Lo demas es cuestion del momento. La liga italiana ha "envejecido" un poco, pero eso es un ciclo natural por el que ya ha pasado antes. Aunque la Roma sea hoy "crap", sigue teniendo jugadores interesantes. En Alemania hoy puede estar bien el Shalke, mañana quedarse por debajo de la mitad de tabla y luego a esperar 10 años a que vuelva a crecer. Lo mismo ha pasado con el Colonia, el Dortmund, el Brehmen. Solo el Bayer se sostiene. Para una Bundesliga en "alza", yo hablaria de las decadas del 80-90, que no tenia las grandes estrellas de Italia, pero tenian equipos homogeneos que permitieron hacer crecer a jugadores como Rummenigge, Klinsmann, Haesler, Mathaus, Litbarsky, Voeller... Y eran partidos que se veian en todo el mundo, sin las facilidades de hoy en dia, por la gran demanda de esa liga.
bueno no se el Bayern por historia y realidad en competencias europeas esta por encima de Inter y Juve y solo por detras del Milan en historia porque ahorita es mucho mas equipo el talento que esta saliendo de la liga alemana (hay una cantidad enorme de jovenes alemanes possiblimente sea su nueva golden generation) tambien sobresale a la italiana tal vez los niveles sean parecidos pero no se como se puede decir que la liga italiana es bastante mas a lo maximo sera un poquito mejor no mas
Yes, but to me they are on the level of S04, HSV, etc. I mean, they signed that Argentinian wonder kid from River, Lamela. I just don't see him going to the Bundesliga, to put an example. Yes, but its not about the number, its about the best players from 'important' countries. Its only one way of looking at things, I admit is not a definite factor of which league is better. But it counts. In the latest call-up for Argentina, for example, there are equal number of players from la Liga than in Serie A (4 vs 4). Brazil, one of the best teams of the worlds, has many national team players in Serie A. Uruguay has a lot of nat team players in Serie A too. This is one strong reason why for me Serie A is better than the Bundesliga. Maybe its got to do with the history. There is still that difference though, German teams will have to continue to do good for some years and Italian teams continue to do bad for both to be equal in my eyes. Maybe its the over-representation of foreigners in Italy as you say. That would explain why the German national team is currently superior to the Italian one. But that over-representation is to me another factor that helps the Serie A be the superior league.
Having done an in-depth study ( ), I don't think it is nostalgic to think that Serie A is superior. If you look at the following list of the Champions League since the beginning of the centuy, which includes from quarterfinalists up, you will see a difference: 2000: Bayern (1st), Valencia (2nd) Leeds, R. Madrid La Coruna, Arsenal, Man U, Galatasaray 2001: Real (1st), Bayer Leverkusen (2nd) Man U, Barcelona La Coruna, Liverpool, Panathinaikos, Bayern 2002: Milan (1st), Juventus (2nd) Inter, R. Madrid Man U, Barcelona, Ajax, Valencia 2003: Porto (1st), Monaco (2nd) Chelsea, La Coruna Lyon, Milan, Real Madrid, Arsenal 2004: Liverpool (1st), Milan (2nd) Chelsea, PSV Inter, Lyon, Bayern, Juventus 2005: Barcelona (1st), Arsenal (2nd) Villareal, Milan Juventus, Lyon, Inter, Benfica 2006: Milan (1st), Liverpool (2nd) Man U, Chelsea Bayern, PSV, Roma, Valencia 2007: Man U (1st), Chelsea (2nd) Liverpool, Barcelona Arsenal, Roma, S04, Fernebahce 2008: Barcelona (1st), Man U (2nd) Chelsea, Arsenal Villareal, Porto, Liverpool, Bayern 2009: Inter (1st), Bayern (2nd) Barcelona, Lyon Bordeux, Man U, Arsenal, CSKA Moscow 2010: Barcelona (1st), Man U (2nd) Real Madrid, S04 Tottenham, Inter, Chelsea, Shakhtar Donesk 2011: Chelsea (?), Bayern (?), Real Madrid, Barcelona, Apoel, Marseille, Benfica, Milan BLUE - Italy RED - Germany ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From 2000 until right now: -> Germany has has 1 champion vs 3 of Italy. -> Germany has had 2 finalists vs 2 of Italy. -> Germany has had 1 semifinalists vs 2 of Italy. -> Germany has had 5 quarterfinalists vs 9 of Italy. -> German clubs in the list amount to 2 (Bayern and Bayer) while Italian clubs in the list amount to 4 (Inter, Juve, Milan, Roma). -> There has been 1 all Italian Finale, something very unique and a huge deal for me personally. So again, I say the German league is improving but the Italian league is still better by some margin. Is not a huge margin but there is still a difference. And this is only in so far as recent results. If you count the history of all big Italian teams combined vs German, compare the budgets, compare squads...
Bam! AL7 laying down the gauntlet. No one doubts that the Italian league is in decline. The thing that is, the Bundesliga isn't on some huge upswing. A huge upswing is what the EPL went through in the early 2000s. Arsenal became a big time team, then Chelsea, then Manchester City. Now even Tottenham is trying to join in. Bundesliga is very slowly improving, but after 10+ years of all this talk about it making strides, it still only has ONE big-name, big-money team. If the current trend continues, maybe it'll catch up to the Italians in 20 years. But as of right now, it's still safely in 4th.
unfortunatly the UEFA cefficient only goes back till 07/08 which is 5 seasons so 2000 is kinda pointless, I mean if you go into the late 90's then Seria A superiority is unquiestionable but we are dealing with the now so I take UEFA's view and see 5 seasons as enough time to go back in this is how they do it For the league coefficient the season's league coefficients for the last five seasons must be added up. In the preliminary rounds of both the Champions League and Europa League, the awarded points are halved. Bonus points are allocated for: Qualifying for the Champions League group phase (4 bonus points). Reaching the second round of the Champions League (5 bonus points). Reaching the quarter, semi and final of either the Champions League or the Europa League (1 bonus point). The bonus points are added to the number of points scored in a season. for the past 5 seasons Bundesliga has outperformed Seria A using those parameters now using what you put up but only last 5 seasons 2007: Man U (1st), Chelsea (2nd) Liverpool, Barcelona Arsenal, Roma, S04, Fernebahce 2008: Barcelona (1st), Man U (2nd) Chelsea, Arsenal Villareal, Porto, Liverpool, Bayern 2009: Inter (1st), Bayern (2nd) Barcelona, Lyon Bordeux, Man U, Arsenal, CSKA Moscow 2010: Barcelona (1st), Man U (2nd) Real Madrid, S04 Tottenham, Inter, Chelsea, Shakhtar Donesk 2011: Chelsea (?), Bayern (?), Real Madrid, Barcelona, Apoel, Marseille, Benfica, Milan BLUE - Italy RED - Germany I see the milan's and Bayern, no surprises there s04 is there twice (juve nowhere to be seen btw) and Roma once bear in mind they also include EUROPA league results seeing as its a measure of a whole leagues quality they rank in this particular league in the 07/08 season Bayern semis and Leverkusen last 8 fiorentina made last 4 08/09 season Werder Bremen and Hamburg made last 4 Udinese made last 8 09/10 season Hamburg semi, Wolfsburg last 8 no italians 10/11 no teams from either league in last 8 11/12 Schalke and Hannover in last 8 no italians so in the past 5 seasons 7 different Bundesliga teams have made last 8 (Hamburg making it twice) 2 italians to me it clearly demostrates why Bundesliga is ranked higher and it clearly demonstrates Seria A aint all that anymore
Ha. Nice reply. The statistics for the last 5 years I think though only prove what we have been saying all along - that the Bundesliga is on the rise and that the Serie A is in the decline. But I very much disagree that 5 years of better performances can outdo decades of superiority to the extent that one can say, because of those last 5 years, that the German league is superior to the Italian. To be able to say that you would need much more than 5 years of better performances, about 10 or 15. This is specially the case if the differences in the last 5 years is not THAT drastic but actually pretty close: -> 0 German CL champions vs 1 Italian CL champions -> 2 German CL finalists vs 0 Italian CL finalists -> 1 German CL semifinalists vs 0 Italian CL semifinalists -> 2 German CL quarterfinalists vs 3 Italian CL quarterfinalists This is why I went back to the statistics from 2000 which I don't think is too far back. Its only 12 years ago. If the German league and the Serie A had both commenced from scratch in 2007 then the German league would be superior. But that is not the case. The Europa League is all nice but we know its a 2nd tier tournament in Europe where Italian and German teams do not send their best. So your Europa League of statistics of the last 5 years make a point - German mid-tier clubs are probably stronger than Italian. But, again, on the upper level of things, you only got Bayern to compete with Inter, Milan, Juve. And this is without considering the following: -> That most clubs German clubs who do well in the Europa League are those who finish third on their groups on the champions league, where sometimes they couldn't pass to the next round while a Italian club did only to be eliminated in the knockout CL stage (i.e. if Italian clubs had finished third in their groups instead there is a high chance they might have done near or just as well as the originally-CL German teams). -> Rumours - I don't know if founded or not - that some Italian clubs who qualify for the Europa League prefer to focus on their domestic league to reach CL positions thus not taking the Europa League as seriously as other countries. This is of course a stupid thing to do which affects their Uefa coefficient directly. But it probably explains to a large part why the German league is ranked above the Italian and why the Portuguese has nearly catched-up with the Serie A (http://theothersports.com/football/...sing-its-fourth-spot-in-the-champions-league/ / http://www.serieaweekly.com/2012/04/serie-a-in-freefall-in-coefficient-rankings.html / http://www.thehardtackle.com/2011/italian-serie-a-2011-12-preview-the-wait-is-finally-over/) -> That a review of the Uefa Cup and the Europa League since 2000 would probably show a similarity, if not superiority, of the Italian League in terms of champions, finalists, semifinalists and quarterfinalists.
if we are talking about which league is better then the Europa league has to be considered otherwise I dont know how one can measure such things, A league is comprised of more than the top 3 or 4 teams If the italians dont care much for it, not much we can do (even do ironically it has cost them a spot in the champions league)
Yeah, of course. Europa League has to be considered. I think it only proves that Italian mid-tier clubs are better than Italian though. And that's not to be overseen. But I think the top 4 Italian teams combined are a lot stronger than the top 4 German teams. That's what makes me believe that the Serie A as a whole is stronger than the Bundesliga.
Si hubiera una mini-liga de 4 equipos "top" alemanes, vs 4 "top" italianos ¿que equipos pondrian? Por los italianos lo tengo más claro: Juve, Inter, Milan y quizás Roma Por alemania: Bayern... y yo tengo cierto rechazo a llamar "top" a los otros equipos alemanes. Por ejemplo, el Moenchengladbach no es ni la sombra de lo que era...
historically speaking Tornino has won more than Roma I think (who really havent done much considering who they are) I dont think there is a 4th team in italy that can stand alongside the big 3, similarily there isnt a 2nd german team that can do the same with Bayern...or in spains case Barca and Real
Napoli looks to be the new 4th. Considering their present and also their past. For a while Roma was the undisputed fourth but then they fell. Lazio and Parma also had their stints. In Germany I think Leverkusen was the second for a while but then they also fell.
Actualmente Napoli, sin duda. They beat Juve fair and square in the Cup final. Plus they were moments away from knocking out Chelsea in the Champions League. They are better than every German team besides Bayern IMO.
Borussia tossed aside Bayern all season long and in the german cup wouldnt dismiss them so easily, young team should do better in CL next season
Bundesliga is very competitive thats for sure. But as someone mentioned earlier, haven't really seen a German team not called Bayern make noise in quite a long while, in the CL. Unfortunately Napoli will not participate in next seasons CL.
Schalke reached the CL semifinal one year ago, eliminating Valencia and Inter in the process. And Schalke reached the CL quarterfinal 4 years ago. Milan and Inter are the only Italian teams who have done better in recent years.
I agree with no bundesliga making a statement in CL, but to me the same can be said of italian teams not called Inter and Milan even Juve hasnt done anything since they last played a final
yep Seria A is the place to be http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...-conte-investigated-for-match-fixing?cc=3436;)
Its speaks bad of their ethic and is one of the major reasons why Serie A is not growing...but in terms of teams, squads, power...
Ese es mas un problema del pais en si. Pero tampoco es una novedad. Ya ocurria en tiempos de Maradona, Platini y Mathaus y Boniek... incluso hubo una historia similar en la que estuvo implicado Paolo Rossi, quien despues pudo "limpiarse" como campeon del mundo y goleador. En terminos de que pais eligiria yo para vivir, seguro que eligiria Alemania; pero si quiero ser visible para otros clubes y asi poder crecer en mi carrera, eligiria antes Italia.