Seleção 2014-15: Dunga II Begins -- Post Cup, Pre Qualifiers [R]

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Guigs, Jul 9, 2014.

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Who would be the ideal choice as new Seleção manager?

Poll closed Aug 13, 2014.
  1. Felipão

    9.1%
  2. Muricy

    6.1%
  3. Tite

    18.2%
  4. Luxemburgo

    9.1%
  5. Guardiola

    24.2%
  6. Other Foreign Manager

    21.2%
  7. Other Domestic Manager

    12.1%
  1. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I believe they make all starter call ups, or they wouldn't have such contract in place.

    But it's Brazil a place where there's never punishment for well anything. And it's a place where people really don't mind this kind of behavior, and rather see it not go punished because eventually they might want to do the same behavior and also walk out free.

    Just the fact that there is a contract to me is enough to prove wrong doing.
     
  2. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    No they don't. Don't be absurd. It's basically just them ensuring we show up for friendlies with the "A" team as much as possible. Like making sure Neymar is called up every time. Because a friendly with Neymar will surely attract more atten$ion than one without. I don't like the contract itself, but I don't think things would be that much different if at all without it. Remember 3 years ago we had some friendlies with the U23 team to prepare for the Olympics. And if they had that much power, Lucas Moura would probably be in the team as opposed to say, Douglas Costa (Lucas plays at PSG which is sponsored in a big way by Qatar). Dani Alves would probably still be on the team.
     
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  3. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Only if you were working for the company....
     
  4. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The article has hit ESPN. So a lot of people not familiar with this will obviously find it disgusting. Not good for Brazil's image internationally. I am curious to see how other big national confederations deal with friendly games.
     
    MerlinRM repped this.
  5. JoãozinhoFutebol

    Feb 16, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Actually, let's really face it that he is totally useless. He offers nothing unless the opposition is slack in marking and mediocre to bad in general also paired with his team tailored to his liking. Ganso decides when he wants to play. He would have been a craque in the 70s-80s but time has passed with only the romantics there to apologize for his refusal to do any defensive work or move off the ball. He's easy to figure out.
     
  6. JoãozinhoFutebol

    Feb 16, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think I get what you're saying but you do realize that Pique is one of the faster defenders in the world? I'm not getting the Busquets reference either.... He's probably the best defensive midfielder in the world and has been since like 2010. Marking doesn't seem to be a problem for him either, ask Ozïl, Sneijder and countless others.
     
  7. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It goes from Nike and that fiasco in WC'98 to now!! Keep on with this bullshit we will never win another major tournament!! We will not win the Copa this year!!:mad:
     
  8. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    Isn't the Argentina federation doing the same thing? This is nothing new.
     
  9. Jiripoca

    Jiripoca Member

    Jul 16, 2013
    London - Sao Paulo - Peruibe
    Club:
    Sao Paulo FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I have to say after we lose in a WC we always have these stupid `excuse` theories to help soften our disappointment and change the subject to some scapegoat - corruption in 98; Perreira in 2006 and Dunga in 2010. The only thing that suprises me is its taken this long to start. We were a crap team and we got beat, move on and win some more WCs to shut people up!
     
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  10. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yeah, a contract that says you must play your A team is pretty common. I don't know what European federations do, but for Brazil they have had a clause like that for a long time.

    To take that and say it means the marketing company determines call-ups is either conspiracy theory stuff or outright stupid.

    That's not to say it's not greedy. Of course it is. CBF could simply not send a medical document when they don't call up an Oscar for example (something they would have to do IF the two upcoming friendlies were part of the ISE contract) and just get paid less. But who in CBF is going to want to be paid less when all they need is a note form the doctor?

    But there's nothing that gives the ISE the chance to call up specific names. The article was sensationalist and even changes a bit of the language of the contract to make its argument.

    For example - the contract (as shown in the article itself) says all players must be considered part of the "A" team. The article however says: "deve entrar em campo sempre com seus principais jogadores, sem qualquer possibilidade de testar jovens promessas" (must enter the game with its main player, with no opportunity to try out promising young players). This is hyperbole. If Dunga were to test a new player and ISE were to take Brazil to court, then there would be an argument about whether that young player could be considered part of an A team or not. Unless the contract further stipulates what an A team is, I don't see how a few players would be a problem.

    The next part however is problematic to me: "ou usar amistosos para preparar o grupo olímpico" ("or use friendlies to prep the olympic squad"). But the solution is to have separate youth friendlies which we are currently doing. I would prefer to have more integration of the two, but CBF long ago decided to make a ton of money by turning Brazil into the globetrotters.

    This doesn't mean we can't try young players, just that if Dunga were to sub the whole team out for a U-23 squad, CBF would be sued.

    The article is just a reflection of Brazil's outrage at the general state of soccer and foreign influence on the game. It doesn't actually analyze the contract it highlights, it just uses it as fuel for the fire.

    And I'm sorry Guigs but:
    Can't really be taken seriously. How would anyone get paid for an amistoso without a contract? Should Brazil be doing charity appearances only? It's hyperbole even greater than the article itself.
     
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  11. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Agents do influence call ups, let's not be naive. This story is a great distraction from that.
     
  12. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Agreed. This story fails completely at finding real reasons to be pissed off at callups.

    It's like the guy didn't grow up in an age where Brazil was already the globetrotters of soccer (Nike World Tours surrounding the 98 World Cup anyone?)

    To be fair to the journalist, I suppose there's a chance a lot of the hypberbole is editorial. Without it it's a bland description of a not-uncommon contract. It could start some conversation, but they've gone and started one that they didn't need that contract for in the first place.
     
  13. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Ideally you'd think why doesn't CBF take care of organizing and promoting it's own friendlies ? Obviously these people are making a good profit off Brazil's image. But I guess there is a lot of side work and deals that needs to be done in doing an international friendly nowadays and CBF doesn't want or doesn't have the expertise to do so.
     
  14. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    If that is what Guigs meant then I'll gladly apologize for taking it as I did.

    But as you already said, it is a lot of work and should be done by qualified people - there is ticketing, security, marketing and dozens of other areas that need to be taken care of. If CBF were to do it they'd be even more bloated and that would lead to even more opportunities for corruption.
     
  15. NotreDameFlamengo

    Jul 25, 2011
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    I guess I'm the only cynical one, but it sounds as if the company is a laranja or some form of it. How much, I don't know, but what does a paper company that has no real office or divulged names of the employees, and owned by a huge middle east conglomerate have to do with football?
     
  16. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The company behind it is a Saudi conglomerate (Dallah Albaraka). But yeah, there is probably some backend stuff going on to funnel the money to some CBF guys.
     
  17. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Good question.
     
  18. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  19. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    Kaka call up during the Asia friendlies make sense now.
     
  20. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Good thing our friendly vs Mexico on June 7 isnt in Mexico..or we might have seen Ronaldinho back in the team!!:D
     
  21. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    You kidding me? Pique looks fast because of his system where he gets to sit back and defend without much threat. And because he doesn't get beaten a lot because 60% of the time his team has the ball and the 40% of the time the other team has the ball they are not really trying to work up ways to go past the defense, but trying to clear the ball from their zone.

    If you sit back and are able to collect clears, you'll look good. Until an actual fast speedy player has a good counter and just speeds past him.

    Busquets marking? Please Ozil, Sneijder are spending most of their time defending deep in their field and when they recover possession most times they have nobody to play with, hence making it easier to disarm or nullify such player.

    Both of these players go outside of Barcelona they wouldn't be as successful as they have been. Here is a great example. Brazil lost 7 x 1 to Germany, without Neymar on the pitch, Germany had the liberty of pressing so high because there was no player that could take the ball from behind their DMs (which were on the Brazilian side of the pitch) and just score from the midfield.

    If Neymar is on the pitch, Germany's DMs are not pressing that high up the pitch.

    To defend effectively you need to have an offense. The more effective your offense the less effective your defensive system is allowed to be, because the other team needs to concentrate on not getting scored first, then scoring second.

    That's why you get Ozil running so deep on the midfield trying to intercept a ball and when it's accomplished he's stuck deep in his area and outside of his comfort area. Instead of making mind blowing passes to score, he's just trying to keep the ball under his teams control, you see that as him being taken out of the match by Busquets? I see that as him not being the right player for those matches (hence Di Maria being better at this role on a parked Real Madrid).

    Busquets cannot mark down a date in a calendar. He has been exposed so many times already it's insane that you believe he can. It's like David Luiz, he cannot mark either, he needs an offensive presence to be effective, while he's less effective as a parked bus style defense.
     
  22. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I'm not sure you understand where I'm coming from.

    It's one thing to sell the Selecao as a product and protect your product. But making Marketing claims for the Selecao is one thing.

    But having Kaka called up due to have more tickets sold for the amistoso, or having Ronaldinho being called up if the game was in Mexico as an incentive to ticket sales not surprising people shows wrong intentions.

    You're now affecting the product and not marketing the product. There is a huge difference between the two.

    Now you go into the youth divisions of the Selecao, where empresarios are always asking for their players to get picked up in order for their value to rise.

    Let's do hypothetical here.
    purchase a player for 100
    goes into the selecao base divisions for a fee of 50% of future transfer.
    Player sells for 1000
    CBF made 500, empresario made 500

    everyone wins?

    These back door deals is what we don't see, but we have seen plenty of evidence of it that usually gets brushed aside because we need more direct proof... That's why there's a difference between criminal and civil cases here in the US. Criminal because you're putting a person behind bars you need beyond a reasonable doubt, while in Civil cases you just need preponderance of evidence.

    So when a dirigente says he asked a lobbyist of CBF to get his player called up people just brush it aside for the lack of proof and leaves it at that.

    But to me the biggest evidence of wrong doing comes from this.
    http://www.cbf.com.br/noticias/a-cbf/esclarecimento-sobre-o-contrato-cbf-ise#.VVzhWflVhBc

    If the contract was no big deal they wouldn't go into a PR war with this guys. It's like the Sea World PR move to make people believe that whales with bent fins is normal etc.
     
  23. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Is Kaka' a big deal in Asia ? Didn't think about it, but you may be right. I can see that happening. Then again Dunga did have a strong relationship with Kaka'.
     
  24. omajac

    omajac Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    East Orange, New Jersey, USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Dunga also had a strong relationship with Robinho as well, that's why I guess he still is on the team!!
     
  25. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The point is this stuff is not in the contract.

    The article claims that third parties have complete control over Brazil's call-ups.

    Then the article points to specific language in the contract that says no such thing.

    I know there are tons of backdoor deals. I'm sure that the journalist wants to do some good by exposing this kind of stuff.

    He did not such thing in the article though. He did little more than a forum poster does every day, pointed to language that is easy to get riled up about and then the conversation started based on all of our "common knowledge" that this kind of shit goes down in some roundabout ways behind the scenes at CBF (not even necessarily the marketing company).

    That's not good journalism.
    I mean... that's like claiming 9/11 conspiracy theorists must be right when people reply to them.

    It's a lose-lose. Don't reply = they have a reason to keep quiet. Reply = they must be afraid so they need to say something.

    If that's how you evaluate claims disputed by two sides then you'll always side with the one you agree with, or the one that went first.

    EDIT: Do you think Kaká = A team, Brazil at full-strength? I don't. If you think that calling up Kaká is related to the clause about Brazil having to bring it's A squad... you can't just leave it at that. You have to show how the two parties would establish wtf an A squad is in the first place.
     

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