It is close to time to judge the progress of our players on the international standard. By 21 he should be playing like a highly hyped player elsewhere, with high soccer IQ. He's not.
exactly that's a massive difference in soccer and a lot of other sports. Especially in the US. By this time, with the training he's received both at the club level and international level, he should be the kind of player you lock into a formation. He shouldn't disappear more than a 35 year old. That's confusing. Gil is one of the few players that needs to be told to force the game a little. Insert yourself, don't let the game come to you. That obviously hasn't been working.
I've heard this argument before that players develop earlier in soccer than in other pro sports. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I am curious as to why it might be true. Female gymnasts, for example, hit their prime at a very young age because flexibility plays such a huge role in the sport. But I don't see any obvious reason why soccer players should mature more quickly than, say, hockey or basketball players either in terms of their skill or their game IQ. Is it just the NCAA system that forces other players through college, and thus they sort of have to mature at a later date? Or is it something about the game itself? Just curious.
They don't NEED to develop as much (physically) as the NBA, NHL, or NFL players, as much as I hate to say it soccer isn't as physical a sport. You need to have a different physique to play professional soccer, one that requires you to be strong, but much much more toned. Most people reach their peak in this area in their early 20's if not earlier. In sports like the NFL and NHL you need to be much more physically dominant and you don't hit that size until your mid to late 20's for the most part.
You're so full of shit. The best soccer players in the world are not at their best at "early 20s". Messi was always good, but he keeps getting better, even in his late 20s. As far as endurance goes ("toned"), marathon runners and cyclists peak in their late 20s and early 30s.
IMO, it has to do with the academy setup used in the rest of the world and what MLS is moving to. Players are indoctrinated to the game/club setting at a much younger age and thus should be able to make the jump to the first team faster. By no means is it a consistent thing. Many players don't come into form until a later age. You can see a player like Schuler as an example of this. However, Gil has had all of the training and such that the expectation should be he'll develop faster. It's frustrating to watch.
I forget who mentioned this earlier, but Javi Morales is a good counter-example, too. He didn't really pick up his game until he was, what, 25 or 26?
I didn't say their best, READ, I said that most individuals who play professional soccer reach their peak physical level in their early 20's. Everything after that is just adjusting or developing specific types of muscle's. By the time you reach 20 you are who you are and you aren't going to change much (from a biological perspective) unless you take DRASTIC/abnormal measures. Most soccer players will have a training regiment involving weight lifting and physical fitness, but after their early 20's their bodies aren't going to change that much. Most NFL, NBA, and NHL players have a vastly different training regiment and they put on a TON of weight and muscle after their early 20's in order to compete with the physicality. They spend much more time in the gym lifting huge amounts of weight.
If you look at it as amount of time as professional as opposed to age, nobody is expecting a player like Gil to mature more quickly. Gil has been a pro since 17. That means he has been playing professional soccer for four years. Players who go through the college system will generally be 25 or 26 after the same amount of time as a professional player. Not saying Gil should have hit his peak, but he should be better for someone who has been playing on the professional level for 4 years.
Sure, but this ignores that by being a professional Gil gained 4 years of professional training but lost out on 4 years of college practice. Don't forget the opportunity costs. You have to recognize that the benefit that Gil is getting is marginally better training and experience than what he would have gotten at the college level or in some academy in Europe or wherever. The question is: how big is that margin? Most here appear to assume it is quite large; I have no idea - it's probably important, but is it that big? The second question, which I asked above (thanks everyone for your responses), is how much does age in general play into development, regardless of being in college or being a pro? And then the third question is whether Gil has gotten enough of a chance in his best position that we can make a call on whether he's going to turn out or not? You can't really make a call on Gil until you've decided on those three questions. And I really have no idea on all 3 of them, TBH.
I'll bite 1. The margin between training with RSL, with professional athletes, and training at UVU is pretty big. Just go watch a training session. Then you add in training with the national team players (which Gil has done both with the full and youth national teams). The gap is massive. The difference in quality of training is night and day - even if he went to the best college program in the country. 2. I replied to this previously. 3. I get that he might excel at one position more than another. There seems to be a consensus that AM is the spot Gil does best at. What's frustrating is that with THAT much supposed talent, he shouldn't be only able to play well in that spot. That's stupid. He isn't a GK and we aren't asking him to play CB. RSL is putting him consistently in advanced positions and giving him opportunities to show his worth. Gil isn't showing his abilities. If he can't show that he can play soccer, no matter the place on the board his name is at, then he isn't worth the hype. At one point you have to just ignore the tactics of it and show me your technical skill. You've gotta show that you are a soccer player first and foremost. With Gil, I don't see that. He doesn't take a game over like he should.
Without specific regard to "the Gil question(s)" (because I honestly have not formulated an opinion), I think that the perception of soccer players being at their best in the early 20s is probably not accurate. I would love to see stats on how old players were when they had their best season. I think the age thing is skewed by the world cup and the huge outliers. The world cup tends to be dominated by younger talent. People pay more attention to a young phenom like Neymar, mostly because they are doing things that we wouldn't typically expect of someone that age. For example who gets more attention, today's Labron James or Labron James 5 years ago? Is he any less good of a player?
Sigh. (this isn't directed particularly at you, JLaw) For the last time, soccer players are probably at their best (in terms of total skill and development) in their late 20's. Soccer players are probably as physically developed as they're going to be in their early 20's. In terms of overall human physical development you reach general "stopping" point in your early 20's, by the time you hit 21-25 years old you are who you are. You can change what kind of physical shape you are in, but you're not going to get much taller and your physique is going to generally stay the same without serious changes to your daily lifestyle (things like diet, types and frequency of exercise, etc etc). For the most part soccer players have a built in daily regiment they've established by their mid-20's, so you don't see a huge change in their overall physical growth after that point. Contrast that to NFL, NHL, or NBA players who out of college go into professional teams needing extensive changes in their daily regiment. They put on a TON of muscle, and spend a lot of time working on increasing physical size in terms of muscle mass by lifting a lot of weight and exercising differently. In terms of skill and technical development, that's an ever changing process which depends entirely on the player and his/her dedication to the game. Look at John Stockton, not exactly a physical specimen, but he constantly grew his technical understanding of the game of basketball and because of that was an effective player into late 30's. That's rare in the NBA and it takes dedication to learning new aspects of the game to fit your deteriorating physical condition. THAT is what is applicable to soccer.
I'd say the difference is huge. I don't think the disparity between college soccer and professional soccer can really be debated. Not to mention the college season is less than 4 months long which means players are actively playing competitive soccer for less than a quarter of the year. From what I've gathered, peoples concern with Gil isn't that he is a 21 year old who disappears in most games, and appears to only play one position. It's that he is a 21 year old who disappears in most games, only plays one position, and is making over 300k a season. He is costing us as much as Morales and only displays a quarter of the talent.
For me, he's been in the system for what, 5 years now? I honestly can't see a difference from when we first saw him get minutes, and now. That's the part that's troubling to me. I can understand that he might not be at his peak, but I've not seen much of an improvement in his game. Given what we're paying him, we should be seeing some sort of tangible progress, and I'm not seeing it. It would be more understandable if we were going through a lot of coaching changes, or formations, or massive overhauls. For most of his career, it was under one coach, with nearly the same core of players throughout. You'd think at the very least he would've had some kind of chemistry between half the team, since they've been there as long. I still think it's troubling that he seemingly can only play one position. I fully understand that everyone has a spot they're better at, but most players can at least be serviceable in a few other spots. I'm fairly certain you could've put Javi on the side of the diamond, and not seen a huge drop off, or have him play more on a wing and get similar results. Not as good as AM, but it wouldn't cripple the formation. Same with guys like KB and even Grabavoy and Johnson would fill in other spots on occasion without it being a train wreck. I'm honestly concerned this is going to be an Adu type bust. A lot of hype that never really goes anywhere.
I totally agree with you, and then a college sophomore goes and scores for the USMNT vs. Mexico. Go figure...
the timing couldn't have come worse/better depending on your side of the argument That said, I don't know anyone that would argue against that kid being an outlier.
So, it seems that everyone thinks there is a huge difference between developing in college and developing with a pro team. Like I said above, I don't claim to know much about it, so I'll mostly defer to everyone else on the board. But, just to play devil's advocate for a minute, here are a few things to think about: @PattysCow mentioned that college soccer is only 4 months, while pro is 9-10. This is a great point. But, don't the best college players (those who plan to go pro) train with academies or elsewhere during summers? If so, the difference isn't that great. Obviously, the level of soccer at a pro team is much higher than a college team. I wouldn't debate that. But, it doesn't necessarily follow that pro soccer is a better place to develop. I can see a few potential problems: (1) The speed of play is so much faster that the younger players don't get time to think and develop their soccer IQ. For example, if i want to be a race car driver, I should probably practice at 60 mph, 70 mph, 80, 90, 100, and on up until I get to speed. Taking Gil and placing him with the first team at age 16 sort of took him from 70 mph straight to 200, which isn't necessarily the best thing. (2) Practices are geared towards players who are already mature and developed, not to players who are still developing. (3) Getting put with the 1st team when you're not ready can destroy your confidence. This, to be honest, is what I fear has happened with Gil. Everyone expects him to be the next big thing, and the longer that doesn't happen he starts to doubt himself. Reminds me of a study I read once where people looked at students with the exact same IQ and test scores, but the ones that were at the top of their class (i.e. students at schools where the average student wasn't as smart) were more likely to go to college. In this case, playing in college might actually be beneficial, because you're THE BEST, and you know it. That confidence carries you forward through the uncertain years until you're ready to hit the pro level around age 22-24. Just some thoughts. Really, my comments above are more an argument for why academies and teams like the Monarchs are so important. They provide a pro environment (and even significant interaction with the 1st team) but can still be tailored to development. I think it's really unfortunate that Gil was just a bit too early to take advantage of those development opportunities.
It's quite simple: The professional athlete's career is too fraught with luck. One injury and it is all over. A degree from Stanford University will serve him well for life.
Assuming they get a degree that has any use. Even if you don't go the college route, it'd be smart to at least pursue a degree and set yourself up for the future should anything happen. Especially since most people don't make enough in the MLS to build up enough to live off of once your career is over.
I've been thinking about this topic, and doesn't Beckerman's past resemble Gil's? He was part of the USYNT at 16. Was in Bradenton Academy, part of Project 2010. Became a pro at 17. He didn't really play in Miami, but played early on Colorado. I don't really remember him, however, in those early days at Colorado. It wasn't until those last couple of years with the Rapids (and particularly filling in for Mastroeni when injured) that it seemed like he made any impact. That was around 2005, maybe even as late as early 2006 (22/23 yo). Am I remembering that right? Gil is clearly at a pivotal point in his career. Even his ardent supporters know that over the next couple of years, he needs to be a player that makes more of an impact. He is clearly judged more harshly than most because of the unrealistic hype that was placed on him even before his 16th birthday. But he also needs to start to convert potential into production. When you look at the young midfield stars in this league that are around Gil's age - Will Trap, Dillon Powers, Harry Shipp - they share one thing in common, when they joined their clubs the teams were poor and they were able to shine by becoming the focal point of the midfield. Gil hasn't had that luxury, not even when he stepped in for Morales in 2011. Would he have been able to shine in those circumstances?
Exactly. You want to know the real reason this is true? Networking. The degree/education itself may or may not be more meaningful than, say, my degree/education from the University of Portland, BUT I guarantee you he'll have more doors open to him later in life than I will. Today's workplace environment is so much more about networking and knowing people and less so about what you know. Honestly, if I were a mid-range player, someone who was on the fringe of going professional but needing serious development time before cracking a starting lineup for a professional team, I'd take the Stanford education in a heartbeat. Of course I say that as an adult now. As a teenager....lol, not a chance, I'd be off to the professional ranks ASAP. Teenagers make stupid stupid decisions for the most part, I know I did.
To even further your comparison, defensive midfield was never Beckerman's position during his development years from Bradenton, to Miami, and then Colorado. Kreis had to convince him to become that defensive midfielder for RSL, Beckerman was more of an attacking midfielder prior to RSL.
which ties in nicely to a tweet I saw over this weekend about US players getting moved out of defensive positions when younger just to come back to them later at a huge success rate. Makes you wonder what the US could have done if Shea was always at LB. Edu at CB. Etc.