RioTinto Expansion

I doubt the FO thinks about expansion before season tickets are over 75% of capacity and every game sells out. For, like, three years. Otherwise, I'm not sure how they justify the investment.

 

There was a discussion regarding this at the beginning of the season on On Frame. Trey said they won't consider expansion until they are selling out 75% of their games, and the season ticket sales are around the 15k-17k range (or something like that). Trey said we're probably another 5+ years down the road before they start looking at expansion. You could go back through the On Frame podcasts and find the discussion if you're really interested.

I don't really care that the stadium isn't downtown because it is still easily accessible. Once the development around the stadium happens, there will be more places for you to pre-game (the FO has specifically mentioned building a soccer pub type bar near the stadium). I think we'll see the surrounding area developed long before the stadium expansion. I'd love to see the stadium expanded to a 27k-30k stadium. It'd make it easier/more likely for RSL to host future WCQ and USMNT games, and also might put RSL on the map for hosting friendlies. But we didn't build the stadium with expansion in mind, so expansion won't be a cheap/easy undertaking.

And here you got my hopes up with an expansion thread, like it was an announcement I missed. You really piqued my interest and had me excited. Thanks a lot.

 

Lol, ya, it's already been mentioned by multiple people in the FO that stadium expansion isn't a reality for quite some time. The team has already set standards necessary before expansion is considered including a minimum number of season ticket holders for a minimum number of years and attendance numbers for a certain number of years. Last I heard it was something similar to what drummer said, ~15k season ticket holders and consistent sellouts for 5-10 consecutive years.

As for the stadium expansion itself, obviously the south end could be filled in with a permanent stand with a lower deck and an upper deck. The north end could probably also be expanded with a second deck that fills in that end and extends up above the north end concessions (I believe this was mentioned and planned for during stadium construction). Altogether, with the north and south end filled in you are probably looking at an additional 3-5k. Not sure how you could get more unless you're talking about completely redesigning the roof or going extremely steep and high on the ends.

 

Trey said on a recent OnFrame that season tickets had exceeded 12.5k.

 

I'm more shocked that the stadium wasn't designed to be more easily expanded. You'd think that would just be good long term planning to have that option if it was needed.

I know they talk about having 15k + STH before thinking about expanding, but honestly I don't see that as a number that has to be hit before looking at expanding. If we sell out most of the games consistently for a few years, that'd be enough to warrant expansion, IMO. I'm sure they could get ~5k seats by fleshing out the south end, and expanding the upper deck seats, as others have said.

The hardest part to expand would be the west side. I would think the north end would be doable without too much work. The hardest part would likely be moving the big screen, but I would think they could figure something out.

 

One losing season and Rio Tinto could turn into a ghost town with the way fans here jump on and off bandwagons.

It's decades, if ever, that this stadium gets expanded.

 

I'd be shocked if it was 10+ years. I'm not sure if it'd be much of an issue, but another thing to consider is the potential loss of fans that can't get to a game. If the stadiums is sitting at 15k or more STH, trying to get to a game is going to be harder to do. It would suck to lose out on people wanting to go because we take far too long to expand and turn those people off from wanting to catch a game live.

 

Checketts was so cash strapped going into the stadium construction that all they were thinking about was getting the project done. We were cutting things left and right to bring the cost of the stadium down, while still trying to keep some of the higher end touches that he wanted. He wanted individual seats instead of bleachers like at Stub Hub and the Dick, so we downgraded them to as cheap as possible. The seats came from either Sweden or Switzerland and were roughly $10-11 each. Checketts nearly lost his mind when a pallet of them went missing. Building the stadium wasn't the dream project I thought it would be, and we walked away scratching our heads on a lot of decisions that were made. I brought up future expansion several times, but it was the last thing on their minds at the time. It would've been easy to pour a few footings for structural steel bases, and then bury them beneath the paving and concourse, but there was no money for it. You've got to remember that the STH base was around 5k-7k at the time, and attendance wasn't very high.

 

I hadn't really thought about the cost involved for future planning. I guess I assumed it was something negligible overall, but it's nice to be set straight.

 

When game tickets are no longer offered on the Pass of All Passes, then maybe. How many sell-outs last year were due to last minute POAP's for left over tickets?

 

This! RSL right now is popular entertainment because they play a fun style and are winners. Nonetheless, we do not get 75% sell-outs. This is our 6th successful season since winning the MLS Cup. Eventually the streak will end. When that happens, the response of the community will be a significant influence on the stadium expansion decision.

 

I wonder how many people will leave if the team tanks. Utah Football has struggled since joining the PAC-12, but they're still enjoying great attendance. The Jazz have tanked, but they still have pretty good attendance. I think the fans will stay even if we struggle. The atmosphere of the game is what draws in a lot of the fans, not necessarily the product on the field. Sure, winning helps, but I think the fan culture is reaching a point where it won't suffer as much as the RES days if the team tanks.

 

I'm hoping for this too. But it makes sense for the F.O. to wait and see before sinking money into an expansion.

 

It is cheaper than refitting later, but it still costs $$ up front and if the money isn't there, it isn't there.

 

This. As a general rule of thumb, retrofitting or redoing work costs roughly 3-4 times what the initial work would have been. This is due to demolition costs, redesign and engineering, etc. But if you don't have the money upfront, you have to delay the plans for future growth.

 

So this past year I decided to take the opportunity to travel which meant I had to cut back on certain expenses . This led to this season being my first in several without season tickets because the priority of soccer took a back seat. Recently I decided to scan through the games to see which ones I would attend this year, and as of right now my choices are slim. Seeing so few seats available throughout the rest of the year made me think of this thread. Most said that expansion wouldn't even be considered until we were at roughly 15,000 season tickets and regularly selling out...well we've reached that point. Obviously the FO isn't going to think, "welp we hit 15,000 season tickets, let's expand right now!" And we still have yet to see how attendance would go if the success of RSL plummeted, but talk and speculation never hurt.

I hope RSL considers expansion instead of increasing prices every year. It would be unfortunate if they began to out price a large chunk of their fan base. Look at the Bundesliga. You can get BVB tickets for $10 and Bayern Munich tickets between $15 and $20. If those teams can survive and thrive with a budget option I believe RSL can too.

Of course RSL will want to see if they're experiencing sustained success before they invest this kind of money into Rio Tinto, but if BS isn't for speculation then I don't know what is.

 

You can't possibly compare the situations BVB and/or Bayern Munich operate with how RSL (or any MLS team) operates. MLS teams are owned by "operator investors" which are people who have put substantial amounts of money into the team and hoping to develop the team into an investment as part of their portfolio. Bundesliga teams operate under the 50+1 model, where 51% of each team must be owned by "club members" (think of something like the Green Bay Packers). This means the teams are developed in a manner that is friendly to the fans and are built to be an extension of the fanbase. That's why tickets remain cheap. This is a fantastic read on the model the Bundesliga follows:

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2010/03/11/fan-ownership-the-bundesliga-model/

As for expansion, the FO has already stated that the team will have to sellout Rio Tinto for 5 straight years before expansion is even considered. Expect ticket prices to rise as demand increases. That's just the nature of the free market system sports teams operate here in the States. As long as the team wins, makes the playoffs, and is desirable to watch then attendance will dictate ticket prices, and attendance will continue to be high.

 

I think RSL would do just fine keeping a $15 option available to RSL games regardless of the model the franchise uses. Where did the FO say they have to sell out Rio Tinto for 5 straight years before they consider expansion?

 

While different from the Bundesliga, I don't think MLS owners are pure profit maximizers either.

Even if they were, I can think of some mechanisms in multi year pricing models that would support maintaining at least a portion of tickets at prices below the max willingness to pay.

 

IMO you don't expand until you see how the attendance fares during a couple of average/bad years.

I'm optimistic that soccer can do well here during down years. If I expect the team to suck I'll still go to games, enjoy the experience, because I love the sport and team. But I'm not sure if I'm representative.

My hope is RSL can be consistently good and not fall back to Chivas/Rapids/RSL@RES levels...but you never know.

Then again, having expanded seats to sell would be a big incentive for a front office to pay to win.

 

This has been stated at STH meetings and I've heard it on radio/tv interviews, their benchmark to consider expansion is consistently selling out every game for 5 years.

Given the revenue sources each team operates under currently, tickets make up the majority of the operating revenue. Teams will continue to use ticket prices to be the big backer of club operations so they will continue to raise ticket prices as demand increases in order to offset expenses. Given the costs of expansion teams will raise ticket prices before making the big investment in expanding stadiums. TFC is the only team so far to actually expand a stadium. Also take into account that DLH is building the Monarchs a stadium, I wouldn't expect a Rio Tinto expansion anytime in the next 10 years. Unless the team sells out every game for the next several seasons and can handle an increase or two in ticket prices.