Post-match: Republic of Ireland

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by thedukeofsoccer, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    this list is hilarious...to put it mildly

    I mean think about the 'ready' guys

    green
    zelalem
    gooch
    amon

    are in the same group with pulisic lol.

    the idea that those guys are in a group with pulisic as in ready to compete is a joke.
     
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  2. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    #252 a_new_fan, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
    I think you are totally confused.

    I mean two minutes ago you had zelalem in the 'ready' category with pulisic...now you aren't sold on him. what happened in those two minutes?

    the us was never a top 15 side in the world, some players will develop, some won't and some new ones will pop up. fyi...they didn't qualify for the 18 world cup...that ship has sailed the world cup starts in like a week in a half sorry to break the news to you.

    also where do you get 6th in the world lol, where does that rating come from? you are just picking random numbers at this point.
     
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  3. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    I can't believe you got no reps for that alone. Few throwback fans here, it's safe to say.
     
  4. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    What about Gyau? I remember @bsky22 and I were debating if he should be called into a camp to see how he is doing after a good first season following the injury. I said no, he said yes.
     
  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Following Sonnenhof Großaspach from Canada is night impossible, but they managed to finish 14 out of 20. That team is a Yank central, with Gyau, Mario Rodriguez, and Dave Yelldell (recently retired, now assistant GK coach).

    Joe got five league goals, not bad for a winger. He's played mostly LW, but also some RW. He played as a forward in a couple of games early in the season, when Hildmann was experimenting with a 3-4-3 and he was the LF.

    The fans have been quite happy with him, but the level at which he plays is probably too low to consider him for a NT call.
     
  6. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    #256 Sam Hamwich, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
    Seriously what is everyone on about? Bruce didn't like players he didn't like. He became a cowardly coach towards the end and for some reason he thought his coaching and his veteran MLS guys were the reason for his victories. They werent. It was an 18 year old kid carrying the entire team. A kid none of them defended on the pitch and a kid who fought the entire way.

    Don't look into the mirror jozy and michael and Tims. Have the balls to look that kid in the eyes and say: Landon and Clint lead us to the world cup and we didn't give you the same opportunity. We're sorry.
     
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  7. rgli13

    rgli13 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 23, 2005
    Memphis, Tn
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i think my rule would be looser, more "consistent playing time trumps potential" (to clarify before anyone reads that wrong- i dont mean beckerman over mckennie- i mean mckennie, or adams, over parks).

    and im not picking at anything here, but moore only played a handful of first team matches this season, the most recent of which was 5 months ago. on the other hand hamid played his last 4(?) club matches, so its some rust (keepers especially need consistency) but mostly he was just really bad.

    but going as young as we are, turning over every stone, makes it hard to have a lot of rules about that sort of thing.

    that said, i agree in wanting to see more of shaq. hes far from the finished product (or even an overly reasonable option) but i really liked his positioning last night. offensively and defensively. he was a lot more interesting than i had expected.
     
  8. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    I also want to add that you have guys that are way too young to say we'll know in the next 18+ months group and the 3 plus years. first there isn't an arbitrary age that 'we'll know' about a kid what way his career is going to go. We really won't know if they are going to be national team players at those ages.

    I mean you have a kid like reyna who is super talented... but the kid is 15 to even imply that we'll know anything in the next 2+ years is crazy. He'll turn 18 literally halfway into the 20-21 season lol.

    If the two most recent u20 groups are as talented as you say its going to take a super stud to get into the national team at 18 or even 20 in this cycle or the next.

    crazy stat alert...the three concacaf teams are sending the three oldest teams to the world cup, average age of 29.4-29.6....the youngest teams are nigeria, france and england. France the super talented squad of young studs...average age is 26. Keep that in mind.
     
  9. rgli13

    rgli13 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 23, 2005
    Memphis, Tn
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    theres some that are objectively untrue, but at least hes (im assuming he) putting thought into more than the 10 guy extreme youngsters in camp right now.

    green and gooch i think are fair to label "ready" in the sense that theyre got more than a seasons worth of matches with a first team. half the posters i see think parks is ready, when hes had the same roughly 5 first team matches as amon, zelalem, weah, etc.

    and sargent- i fully expect him to get preseason looks and hopefully contribute next season- but good gosh- not. a. single. minute. yet. was the only thing keeping him from being a full time starter in the bund this year his birthday? i mean, possibly, but why are so many already decided?

    the list overall is a decent place to start at least, to consider our pool beyond what everyone knows/is familiar with. we can argue what level of readiness is but its more productive than "corona sucks" and other nonsense that flies around here every day.
     
  10. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're right that he likely hasn't reached his ceiling but being young and starting in the EPL isn't a guarantee that he gets better. As long as he keeps his top end speed he will be able to stay a starter in the EPL. He has improved and I hope he continues to. He needs to work on his crossing and 1v1 attacking if he wants to become a top class right back.
     
  11. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just saw the first half of the game and you can take your pick who played the worst to their standard...Yedlin, CCV or Hamid.

    The best player in the first half has to be Weah, he was all over the field and making things happen, he wasn't perfect but you can see the kid wants it. With Pulisic in one end and Weah in the other, I think we are set for a few years.
     
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  12. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    This is the problem with arbitrary things like, "he didn't play a minute". The second Sargent steps on the field for WB, he instantly is playing at a higher level then every other #9 in our player pool. Reports from WB, on and off the record, are that he will be in the first team and play a significant part next season. I'm sure if media guys are hearing that, USSF and Sarachan and Ramos are hearing that.

    So, in two months he could be our top #9, in terms of where he is playing. But for some arbitrary reason, you leave him out of friendlies now? Calling them in is a lower bar than playing them. You have to trust Sarachan that he is evaluating something in training. Although, I would understand if you didn't haha.

    Moore was called in in March. I think he would have been capped then, but the whole, "have to beat Paraguay to get this job" mentality by DS. So, DS probably felt he owed it to Shaq to cap him.

    Moore, De La Torre, Olosunde, Adams, Parker, Trapp might also be getting caps in these friendlies to help with moves this summer. Robinson, CCV, EPB, Green, Hamid deserved to be in this Euro-based camp either way, but this should help them get loans/moves too.
     
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  13. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    green is 'ready' for a us b team...if someday there is ever a need for that and I don't know if you paid any attention to gooch's season or his appearance against bolivia...he isn't ready for anything at the international level.

    weah, parks are way ahead of zelalem at this point but they are even behind pulisic. there are levels to all of this and that lists misses it.

    reyna is 15...relax he isn't ready for the usmnt. People don't realize that guys like pulisic getting that much time was and will be a rarity not the norm. The usmnt isn't going to be full of a 5/6/10 players under 21.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    so many of your posts have statements like this, but you really dont seem to know what you are talking about.

    Morroco has 5 guys on their WC roster who 21 or young. Nigeria has 7 that are 22 or younger. Belgium had 5 who were 22 and younger in 2014 including 2 who were 19 yo.

    I'd think we could follow France from this tournament in 4 years. Fifteen of their players are 25 or younger with two 19 year olds. Miazga, Hyndman, Steffen, Delgado, etc will be 26 or older by 2022. The 25 yos will be the guys from 2017 u20 WC. The focus should be on integrating those players as soon as possible and then filling the younger ones as ready. Pulsic, Mckennie, Sargent, Weah, EPB, etc will be 22-23 yo veterans. We could probably find room for one or two 19 yos like Reyna or Alvarez or Llanes or etc.
     
  15. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Excellent point.
     
  16. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Has there been any official stance from USSF on which duel nationals they will target? It always seems to be a dark closet affair, or they play for one coach and then are completely antagonized by Bruce, I mean MLS, I mean Garber, I mean USSF, for not being...what? It would be nice if they were more transparent in their efforts for the benefit of the players and fans.
     
  17. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    If I say ready now, I'm referring to the fact that said players can move on to playing for the senior teams, earning call ups depending upon the quality of the competition (some would be full international, some would be more camp cupcake, random domestic friendly against a concacaf foe on a non-Fifa date).

    I don't believe a Green, a Zelalem, a Gooch, or an Amon is at Pulisic's level. Of course not. What I mean when I place them as ready now is that all four of them were getting first team minutes the last time they played, and could step in in a friendly. Obviously as mentioned in the post, a Zelalem may not even be a guy you'd call into camp cupcake let alone a qualifier in a years time or so. Amon, Gooch and Green have clubs they start for, and as such can earn looks in call ups.

    They aren't Pulisic by any stretch and it's ludicrous to think so.

    My point in my post is and was that we have a giant pile of prospects, and young players that are either earning first team minutes now, are becoming regular starters for their clubs, or are thus far still on a green light in terms of development even though there kids (like Gio Reyna). As such, depending upon what zone they are in amongst those tiers, they can be called in now (an Amon, a Green), we should have a clear idea if they're a legit call in target by the winter of '19-'20 at the latest or not (guys like Tillman, Wright, Akale etc who will either make the jump, or fail and have contracts lapse over the ensuing years) or so far green light prospects that are longer than 18 months away in terms of having a chance (if all things work out) to become regulars for the US team (guys like Gio Reyna, Nyeman, Booth etc).

    I assumed it would be perfectly understandable what I was trying to get at, but it seems clear, at least with you and some who gave you reps, that it wasn't.

    So one more time, hoping to speak with clarity.

    It is not, and was never my point that those guys are at Pulisic's level, or are his equals in terms as relevance w/regards to call ups.

    Rather, it was my point that we have a giant pile of prospects in various tiers coming up that play in the midfield.

    Tier 1:
    Some are prospects that may have reached their ceiling or found their level (whichever you prefer), and are camp bodies more than legit prospects: Green, Gooch, those sorta guys.

    Some are prospects that have not reached their ceilings from what one can tell and can also be called in now: Guys like Amon.

    Tier 2:
    Guys that are 18+ months away (more than likely anyway) and in the next 18 months we should know whether they're legit senior team call up players, or just failed prospects.

    Tier 3:
    Guys like Reyna and Nyeman that have done everything possible to this point to suggest that they can become great, but that the journey from great 15 or 16 year old, to legit long term national team starter is very long, and so it's wise simply to keep an eye on them, and hope for the best in terms of health and development.

    We have NO ONE at Pulisic's level right now. Noone. I would not, and could not dispute that.

    What we do have is a giant pile of prospects that have a chance to be special like he is given time and a lot of luck, or have a chance to become contributors and possibly more on the national team if all works out.

    It's a lot of maybe's, but the key with prospects is not quality, it's quantity, and for the first time in memory, we actually have both.

    If you think that's hilarious, than so be it, I am fully confident you're wrong in such a case, but regardless, I'd then suggest you ignore my posts going forward, as you won't be changing my mind, nor I yours, only time can. And unlike some, I have no problem admiting I was wrong (for instance being perfectly sanguine about the hiring of Arena 18 months ago to save qualification: I was dead wrong about that, and I wasn't nearly as concerned as I should have been with the T&T line up and formation choice on Matchday 10. If I'm wrong, I've got no problem owning it, I'd prefer to be wrong on issues and ideas as little time as possible, pigheaded stubborness can only hurt you after all, when you're wrong about something.
     
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  18. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    I think the veil has been lifted a bit. Top US players will either go the Sargent route or the Parks / Weston path. Morris will be the last US international caught in the artificial conflict vortex of Garber/Klinsmann.

    The pendulum has swung. MLS as a product has shifted to 'better' latin/foreign players. US players of a lower caliber either mentally or technically will look to stay in MLS, while better players are going to roll the dice abroad.

    From there it is a numbers game. More players means more chances.

    Until the structure above the coaching and the coaching of coaches improves, the US homegrown star will go the way of Landon Donovan: one in 50million lucky shot.
     
  19. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    As mentioned in my above post:

    I was not including Zelalem as a player I was "sold" on, that wasn't what was meant by, "ready," so I did a poor job of explaining my tiers. My, "Ready," tier was about players that have reached the point where they can be called into friendlies, essentially they've either reached their ceiling or found their level, or arrived in a place where they can be called into friendlies. They aren't "raw" so to speak.

    Zelalem has played in multiple professional leagues at this point as a regular, as such, when he's healthy, he's a guy who could be called in. Is he a legit starter, or first backup off the bench? Absolutely not. Is he a camp body, and a guy, who, if he could put it all together, and become relevant going forward, sure. If I'm betting one way or the other on him at this point, I'm betting on him being a fade out candidate, but regardless, with 30 appearances for Rangers, and in the Eredivise, he's a professional at this point. To my mind that means he's worth calling up and getting a look. Does it mean he deserves a place in the 23? Again, no chance, not to this point, but a look? Sure.

    "Ready," for me, meant players that have the professional experience now to be called in for camps. It didn't mean they're the equivalent of McKennie, or Pulisic, or Wood, or JAB etc. All I meant by ready was simply, you can call him in at this point and take a look in 2019 or late '18. Guys like Tillman, and Taitague are the next tier down for me, the guys that aren't there yet (and may never get there) but for now, are next up, probably in 2019 or early 2020.

    Hopefully that provides some clarity on what appears to have been poorly explained tiers.
     
  20. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Gyau and plenty of others too. I'd call him up, see what we have, see if he's lost that cutting edge that made him a potential long term member of the 23 several years ago. It would be helpful if we're so short on scouts that were sending halfwits like Rongen around to sabotage our development program, to get a look, personally I'd hope we had guys keeping an eye on him and running the info back on whether he's anywhere near back to what he was pre-injury or if he's just transitioned to a lesser, "camp body at best," type player.

    There's plenty of other guys I probably forgot to mention as well.
     
  21. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada

    I understand that, which is why I tried to be a bit expansive with the tiers, but you're right, I should have been more vague in describing the tiers in regards to the kids.

    I think we/regards to the 18 months guys, that we should know if they're worth a call up by around January 2020. I think that's reasonable.

    Guys like Reyna, and Nyeman, you're right, it could be 3 years, away, it could be 5. I thought I put 3+, but maybe I didn't? Not sure.

    I expect that over the next 4.5 years before Qatar, everyone but some of the 3+ years guys will have revealed what they are in terms of a series of simple tiers like:

    *National Team Starter
    *National Team Member of the 23
    *Speculative periodic "Looksie" Call ups
    *No longer in our plans.

    The only guys that probably wouldn't reveal that are guys you mentioned like Gio, Nyeman, maybe Carleton (I just don't know because of his contract situation, when he can get out of Atlanta, and that doesn't even take into account whether he has it or not (I hope he does, not sure, just feeling positive right now)).
     
  22. Jay510

    Jay510 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Madison, Wi
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The goal doesnt have any long term ramifications, but he looks just awful on that play, caught off guard, the de-pants'd
     
  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    The rosters of the best World Cup teams for this tournament are stocked with players that were getting pro minutes at 17/18. I think the USA is about four years behind. I also think because of the FIFA rules on players under 18; we are at a big disadvantage to any country in the EU. Pulisic might have been on to something in lobbying to get that changed. Certainly, when 18 was put in place, that was at a time when players developed later. 16 would probably be equivalent in today's game.

    No particular level is discussed, just a pro environment. If USL counts, almost the entire U17 team from last year and many others are in USL getting significant minutes now. Like I said, we are maybe a cycle behind.
     
  24. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. It's still going to be somewhat subjective. Generally, I would look for players who are starting the majority of the games. Not spot starts in Cup games and a few games here in there. The hard part is with young players who you want to see how they would react at an international level, but aren't getting playing time at their club. I think that it's fair to bring them in to get a game. Hamid doesn't fit that model, but Moore does.
     
  25. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    i see Pulisic and Weah competing for the forward spot 7/11 when we play with a 9 like Jozy or Sargent. I fell over when I saw somebody use the old expression "cut of his jib" on these boards but I think it fits Weah. His personality on the pitch gives him the inside rail on Pulisic at this time, imo. We can only wait and see as they mature into their real footballing selves over the next 5 years. Weah just looks more determined, imo.

    MNtime, Sciaretta's review of the midfield which I agree with except he's wrong that a 10 will solve the problem of an un-coordinated midfield. It's the old "Talisman" theory which is now no longer relevant. The midfielders have to play as a unit quite apart from a 10

    "When you look at the central midfield triangle of Wil Trapp behind Weston Mckennie and Tyler Adams, each player was decent against Ireland on an individual level. Trapp sometimes struggled defensively with the physicality of Ireland’s midfielders but he also made some solid passes.

    But while these three were solid individually, collectively as a unit they did not consistently produce enough scoring opportunities or sustained pressure on Ireland’s backline.

    This midfield needed a No. 10 to tie it all together and lead the creativity. Neither of these three play that role for their clubs or are suited to do so for the national team. With a No. 10, it will allow Trapp, Adams, and McKennie a chance to do what each does best.
    "
     

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