That is a bunch of bullshit...you cant even believe that...What happened to Cuah against Pato Araujo in the semifinals....a product of Chivas made cuauh like a piece of s.hit...the best defense in the liguilla started with reynoso, maza, and magallon who are products of the Cantera...Bofo carried us through the liguilla but Venado Medina carried us troughout the whole season....Medina finished with 8 goals and about 7 assists at the end of this season...Bofo and Medina are the best Mexican players playing in the Mexican league...
LMVCP you should try answering the question...The question is who has the best youth system this moment not 15 years ago...
Araujo did not nuetralize Blanco IF that is hat you are implying. America failed more so by not defining its goal opportunities than Chigvas' defense. best defense? I think that honor would have to go to Pumas for allowing 11 goals. In fact, America had a better defense than Chivas. enough with the BS. aside from Bravo and Medina, your stars are not even born and bred in Chivas. Sanchez is an Atlas product. Bofo is a Tecos product. Pineda is a Pumas product. Martinez is a Necaxa product. Morales is a Monterrey product. You act as if Piojo was America's saviour, but you seem to forget that Chivas imports more players and even the past 20 years, Chivas' stars have been imported. Palencia, Carmona, Arellano, Suarez, Ramirez, Carmona, Sol, Napoles, Sanchez, etc. Look at America--its player like Zague, Hermosillo, Peleaz, Manzo, Blanco, Ocha, Tena, Luna, Ortega, Aguirreetc ---players that were national team and world cup calibre players were all born and bred in America ----
I already answered it 50 different ways. America has a better youth system. I fail to understand how you cant grasp the concept that a youth system is measured by the amount of players that a youth program sends to the 1st team. If a player is able to make a smooth transition from the grass roots unto the 1st team (top flight), then you can say that the program is functioning. You dont measure a youth system by the amount of cups it wins at the youth tournaments. If that was true, then Nigeria would have a superb youth system considering how well they do at the youth championships. That is why you keep insisting about Copa Chivas and all these other Mickey mouse cups. Good, if America or Chivas wins the 3rd division title or th Copa Lowes. Those accomplishments mean NOTHING if those players cant make the transition from a youth team up to the 1st team. So, that is why I say America is better at the moment because for the past 10 years (up to date)---america's youth have been able to adapt to 1st division...more so than Chivas players...
I have anwered the threads question numerous times. You just fail to grasp what a youth program is. America has the best youth system at the moment. Most youth instructors (Alfonso Portugal, Jorge Griffa, Renato Cesarini, atc) all have said that a youth program is measured by the amount of players that are able to make the transition from the lower leagues unto the top flight. I have noticed that you think that a youth program is measured by how 1)many youth titles they can attain and 2) how many players are debuted. That is flawed and I will tell you why. For starters, most youth teams participate in tournaments on an invitational basis--which means that their participation is not based on performance. One of the few youth, amatuer tournaments that I know of that actuallly invite clubs on thier performance is Copa Tecate. Unfortunately, Copa Tecate is a US Hispanic tournament and more than 20 teams from around the US participate in the final tournament. The winners of each city move on. We dont have a national amatuer youth tournament of that sort in Mexico, although Copa Coca-Cola claims we do. Copa Cola Cola is based on pure registration. So any team that has the support of mommy and daddy can play in that tournament in Mexico. Secondly, most 1st division clubs have youth teams varying from National Junior (nacional juvenil) up to 7th division (age group 7 years). Clubs like Morelia enlist their clubs in state sanctioned leagues (overseen by state federations that answer to the FMF). The problem with this set up is that while Morelia may be able to have nice uniforms, decent coaches, a few bucks for traveling---the fact is that thier teams win because they have a better organization and have better infrastructure than their opponents at their respective level. So where I am trying to get it is that Morelia may pat themselves on the back because the 6th division won their local league, the truth of the matter is that they are the big fish in the little pond. Its like being the fastest retard in the special olympics--a dubious honor. I asked you the question before----how many players from the famous 1977 youth team actually went on to have fantastic careers? Careers that you can say, "yep, he became one of Mexico's best"? Before the 2005 U-17 World Championship, the 1977 U-20 Runner-up team was the best youth team that Mexico had assembled. A lot of people were patting themselves on the back, but as time passed on--alot were wondering when those kids were going to ante up and make the full transition into the first division. While some (like Enrique Lopez Zarza, and Eduardo Rergis) were doing fine, it took most years before they would become established 1st division players and by that time, their national team hopes had already passed them by. You cant pat yourself on the back about the the 5-6 Chivas players on the 2005 squad, but when they become established 1st division players and on World Cup rosters, then you an say they made the full transtition. Until then, you cant. ---- You also seem to think (atleast by what you have implied) is that a club's youth program is determined by how many players it debuts. Debuting a player can be circumstantial just as it can be out of necessity. Ochoa was debuted because Adolfo Rios was having intestinal problems. That clearly shows that they did not debut him because they thought he was ready. Castro was debuted because he had gone up the ranks and the club felt that the kids talent could be exploited on the right flank. Which ever the reason maybe--what matters is not how or why they got your debut--but what they do after to solidify themselves in the 1st division. ---------- That is why I claim that America has the best youth system at the moment because their players have been able to make a transition and become established 1st division players.
Ok how many Americanistas have done that in the past 5 years? Ochoa is the only good player the comest to mind...on the other hand Chivas has Salcido, Bravo, Medina, Vela(Jaguares), Sabah, Maza and Reynoso
lmvcp is delusional.. we all know that la mejor cantera esta en guadalajara.. thats a stupid way to get around the facts that guadalajara has produced a vast amount of players that are top notch. and I mean atlas and chivas combined..
sawe! ... lamejor Cantera si le preguntas a cualquier persona (queno sea americanista) te va decir la de Chivas o la de Atlas!
why limit to 5 years? Blanco and Villa have been with the 1st division club since 92 (not including the times they have gone to play elsewhere, Europe, etc) The fact that the youth system produced a player(s) that have been able to maintain for such a long time (92) speaks well? Sabah, Vela (older bro), Reynoso have not amounted to anything. They are well past being called "prospects" and I doubt the NT will be in their future. However, Oscar Rojas, Gringo Castro, Memo Ochoa, Juan Carlos Mosqueda all have still bright futures. Alvin Mendoza, who up until last season was aiding America fulfil the 20-11 rule, was playing extremely well.
delusional? coming from someone that thought Brody was qualified as a coach? pern, you dont measure a youth system by how many playes it debuts or how many yout titles it wins (i have explained why). You measure them by how many players are able to make the transisition into the top flight and who are able to produce at that level.
wow, how long will this thread go? and ochoa watched the world cup from the bench and he's a veteran...woop! so for the last year or whenever this thread was started, the argument was 8 players in the final... so let's see: Maza Reynoso Magallon Araujo Medina Bravo Esparza . . well one short! i dont remember patlan subbing in for ramoncito. 7 unless u count salcido who was with us from holand...
Eight if we also count Vela, which would of had Chivas with three eighteen year old players in the field in a Championship Final. And there is no denying that out of the U-17 WC champs, in Mexico, Esparza and Araujo have been the stand outs. Now America does have a good youth system, but Overall I give the edge to Chivas who is producing more talented players who are demostrating their skills at the international stage. The U-17 WC Championship squad had five Chiva players, all of them starters, they were the core of the team. There are now 11 total Chiva youth players in the U-17 and U-20 squads, 12 if we count Vela. After Marquez, the two most sucessfull Mexican players abroad are without a doubt Salcido and Vela. In MLS, Panchito Mendoza is seen as one of the lagues most exciting and promising players. In the MFL : Bravo has been one of the best Mexican strikers in the past 2-3 years. Sabah, on loan at Cruz Azul, was one of the leagues top goal scorers, and the best Mexican goalscorer, with Bravo right behind. Out of The top 10 MFL goalscorers, Chivas have produced two of them, Sabah and Bravo, with Cacho being the third Mexican striker. And Medina, missing the ranking by just one goal: ranked #11 with six goals. The argument before was that Chivas, despite all their youth players had not won anything. Well they are the current Champs. And what was being done last season, with bench and reserve players against Pachuca in liguilla proves just how good those youing players can "transition" to the big team. So, we can go back and forth all week on CA vs. Chivas youth system, but only results in the filed will prove who had the best youth set up. Which clubs players will go abroad and triumph, which's clubs youth players will sucessfully trabnsition into the first team. CA will most likely go into a rebuilding phase, let us see how much the club will depend on their own players or if they will overlook them and go after foreigners. I know Chivas has their sights set on Kikin and Galindo, like any clubs, in order to remain competetive you need to have top players. But I want to see which club will make the most out of their Youth players. We can come back after next season and compare.. . I say for this past season, Chivas wins the round.. round two is on its way.. .
WTF!!!!???? he is younger than Rojas and Castro, and if you are speaking about acomplishments, Mosqueda hasn't acomplished anything, as well as Mendoza Alejandro Vela: 22 años (28/03/84) Oscar Rojas: 25 años (02/08/81) Gringo Castro: 26 anos (11/08/80) If you think that a difference between 22 and 25 or 26 is not a big difference soccerwise, you are DEFINITLY DELUSIONAL!!!!! Anyway... here is another prove that we have a better cantera than yours, might not be the best, but it is better than yours: http://www.milenio.com/mexico/laaficion/nota.asp?id=466923 Thank You!
As a matter of fact, one thing is bothering me. Why, if america has the best cantera in Mexico, they keep buying more players???? it's not like they are selling 6 and only buying 2!!! The reason this bothers me is because I saw a promising player called Julien Freire once, and everyone keeps talking about Santiago Fernandez, but they seem to be condemned to a mediocre team in 1ra A.