Question about tie-breaking PKs

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Sachin, Jun 19, 2007.

  1. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Two teams find themselves in a PK shoot out to decide an elimination match, and Team B is down to 10 men because one man was sent off.

    Suppose that through 10 rounds, both teams are level on the number of PKs made. I know that's highly unlikely, but play along. With PK 11, Team A has a man to take the PK, but Team B does not. What happens in that circumstance? Does Team A essentially get a free PK that if they convert, they win, or can a player who has already taken a PK respond?

    Has this ever happened in a major competition?

    Thanks,

    Sachin
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a principle called "reduce to equate." If Team A is down to 10 (or 9, 8, etc.) players at the end of extra time either due to send offs or injuries, then the captain of Team B is asked by the referee to designate which player(s) won't participate in penalties. So you always start penalties with the same number of players from each team, which makes the scenario you put forth even less likely to occur.

    If someone somehow finds a way to get himself sent off during penalties, you continue on through the rotation of players that is left. A team always has a chance to match a penalty in each round, though. So in this unlikely event (someone getting sent off during penalties AND it going to at least 11 kicks), a player would kick twice before all his opponents kicked once.
     
  3. GalaxyOne

    GalaxyOne Member+

    Dec 6, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, that wouldn't be very fair, would it?

    I'm sure you just begin again with one of the ten that has already taken one. I recall Mexico and Germany, I believe it was, went to a lot of PKs (I think 12 or 13) in the Confederation Cup in 2005. I don't think one of the teams was short, though.
     
  4. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Thanks all! The Mexico-Costa Rica match got me wondering.
     
  5. refmike

    refmike New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Cal North
    The reduce to equate is done only before the kicks from the mark begin. If a player is injured or sent off during the taking of the kicks then it is quite possible that one team will use all their players before the other team. The USSF ruling on this is that we still kick in pairs so the 11th player on one team is kicking against the first of the other team. Note that the players do not need to come up in the same order as in the first round. The only rule is that no one can kick a second time before all teammates, including the keeper, has had a turn.
     
  6. geego

    geego New Member

    May 14, 2006
    When doing the "reduce to equate", is it possible to discard the goalkeeper? I mean, there are two ways to look at it:

    - You have to discard enough players to level the teams, the discarded players not taking part anymore as either shooters or goalkeepers.
    - You have to discard enough shooters to match the total number of players of the lesser team (all of whose players are shooters), so the goalkeeper may take part between the posts but out of the shooters rotation.

    Which one? Common sense tells me the second one, but...:confused:
     
  7. ref47

    ref47 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    n. va
    you could name your keeper to not participate. but, that means you now need a field player to become keeper. not likely you have a backup keeper on the fop.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, it's the first one. The total number of players left on the field for each team has to be level. If you "discard" the goalkeeper, it just means someone else has to wear the keeper's jersey.
     
  9. LoewenBoy

    LoewenBoy Member+

    Aug 25, 2004
    Giesing, Muenchen
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Sint Maarten
    As the Jetson's dog used to say, "Rutrooo Rasro!"

    I have seen this forgotten alot lately. Alot.:rolleyes:
     
  10. refontherun

    refontherun Member+

    Jul 14, 2005
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just to be clear, after every player of a team and on the field has kicked once, they may kick again, in any order, until every player has kicked a second time, or until a result is reached. That's the way I read it.
     
  11. refmike

    refmike New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Cal North
    Correct. And my earlier post answers the second question. The keeper is a player left on the field and must participate. If he is replaced there is a new keeper on the field who must still take a turn at the kicks.
     
  12. macheath

    macheath New Member

    Jul 8, 2005
    DC
    Well, just when you think these are far-fetched scenarios, see the England-Holland U-21 match today. Is somebody psychic? (No, I know several of you/us are psycho...)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/6766603.stm
     

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