Quarterly Quarrel - The Financial Discussion Part 5

sdotsom · May 9, 2017

I had come to it at 21 out of the 89 million pounds, plus this extra 20-22 million pounds that seems to be showing up from the yearly fees (3.3 to Raiola, 2.2 to paid through Pogba to Raiola per year). Not sure if that's right, but it seems to match yours - 50 ish million euros is about 42 million pounds right now.

The Jitty Slitter · May 10, 2017

cr7torossi said: ↑

Ok catching up on this story, the leak alleges that Raiola got paid the following
- 27m euros out of the 105m that we paid to Juve (3rd party ownership which everyone but ABUs knew about).
- 19.4m euros for acting as United's representative in the transfer
- 2.6m euros for acting as Pogba's representative in the transfer.

Now, the first of those amounts could be claimed to be Juve's cut to Raiola for promoting and selling Pogba at the highest price.

If true, that would mean Raiola was representing all 3 parties in the transfer which would be a serious breach of conflict of interest.

It would also mean United paid a total of 127m euros (or 106m pounds) for the transfer, while Juve received 78m euros (or 65m pounds) from it.

From our perspective, it is not that much of a surprise. We would have expected to pay ~10% or so in agent fees and commissions and the leak claims that number to be closer to 15%.

Good fodder for the media and ABUs in general. It is not as if RM didn't pay 10-15% to the agent on top of the Ronaldo and Bale fees. And Barca paid 50% on top to Neymar's dad (agent).
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The real scandal is the extent to which agents control the talent rather than the clubs which theoretically own them.

It's that aspect that is bad for fans.

YOUNGSTARS87 · May 10, 2017

cr7torossi said: ↑

Good fodder for the media and ABUs in general. It is not as if RM didn't pay 10-15% to the agent on top of the Ronaldo and Bale fees. And Barca paid 50% on top to Neymar's dad (agent).
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The difference is RM didn't have the same agent representing the player and the selling club.... represent its own interest as well in a seemingly secret hidden capacity.

There is a reason this isn't legal. Jorge Mendes never represented Madrid when we bought Cristiano. Jonathan Barrett never represented Madrid when we bought Bale. Barrett made 14 million pounds froms Bale's 86 million pound transfer (paid from the 86 million sum and Bale for agent fees). There was no other amount that made things egregious like Raiola pocketing almost 40% of Pogba's total 127 million euro transfer.

IMO Manchester's only issue is if juve cry foul that they never knew and that both Raiola and Manchester played them. Then it becomes a serious scandal. I expect a piece of shit like Raiola to try to implicate Manchester if this is the case.

I do believe that regardless, Raiola is getting some kind of ban; possibly even permanent.

The Jitty Slitter · May 10, 2017

cr7torossi said: ↑

And Barca paid 50% on top to Neymar's dad (agent).
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Sage point.

I suspect the reason Utd deal appears so inflated is because they are NYSE listed and the likes of Woody don't fancy seeing federal prison.

Barca and also Bayern via the corrupt Hoeness were happy to slush cash secretly or in Bayern's case, off the books until Hoeness had to go to jail.

Or if you are Chelsea, with access to a vast grey business empire, its easy to have side transactions.

This is also what HM just busted people for in their raids.

The Jitty Slitter · May 10, 2017

YOUNGSTARS87 said: ↑

IMO Manchester's only issue is if juve cry foul that they never knew and that both Raiola and them played them. Then it becomes a serious scandal. I expect a piece of shit like Raiola to try to implicate Manchester if this is the case.

I do believe that regardless, Raiola is getting some kind of ban; possibly even permanent.
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The money is coming off Utd's official books

No way is Woody running any scams on that.

Juve on the other hand?

This is what my friends say is the big difference working for a US company. Yes some countries like Italy have serious corruption. And that creates opportunities.

But is it worth going to Federal prison just to sign Paul Pogba?

ETA - or as my friend put it, is it worth bunging the procurement officer of [FAMOUS BRAND] just to get their business? I have a nice life and 10 years is a long time in jail

YOUNGSTARS87 · May 10, 2017

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

The money is coming off Utd's official books

No way is Woody running any scams on that.

Juve on the other hand?

This is what my friends say is the big difference working for a US company. Yes some countries like Italy have serious corruption. And that creates opportunities.

But is it worth going to Federal prison just to sign Paul Pogba?

ETA - or as my friend put it, is it worth bunging the procurement officer of [FAMOUS BRAND] just to get their business? I have a nice life and 10 years is a long time in jail
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It is clear to everyone that it is not in the interest of the selling club for the agent supposedly representing their interest to represent the interest of the buying club.

My point isn't the financial declaration it is the possibility that juve will say there was collusion.

The Jitty Slitter · May 10, 2017

YOUNGSTARS87 said: ↑

It is clear to everyone that it is not in the interest of the selling club for the agent supposedly representing their interest to represent the interest of the buying club.

My point isn't the financial declaration it is the possibility that juve will say there was collusion.
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My point is that the collusion is probably on Juve's side

Do you think there is no money go round here?

YOUNGSTARS87 · May 10, 2017

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

My point is that the collusion is probably on Juve's side

Do you think there is no money go round here?
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If that were the case then they wouldn't be making so little with Raiola making so much.

Also, juve is the selling club, it doesn't behoove them to have Raiola negotiate against their own interest. This is why Manchester could be implicated. In this scenario juve could claim that are victims of Raiola colluding with Manchester. That is the only way I see Manchester having any pitfalls. Raiola on the other hand finally got burned from flying to close to the sun.

United 16 · May 10, 2017

Paul Pogba transfer shows Mino Raiola’s power in stark contrast to Fifa inaction

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/may/10/mino-raiola-manchester-united-paul-pogba

The Jitty Slitter · May 10, 2017

YOUNGSTARS87 said: ↑

If that were the case then they wouldn't be making so little with Raiola making so much..
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I don't think you get how this works

YOUNGSTARS87 · May 10, 2017

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

I don't think you get how this works
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So you think juventus colluded with Raiola to con Manchester into also representing them in a transfer for a player they're trying to sell?

How does that make any sense? The reality of the matter is its not legitimate for him to represent all sides. The question asked would be when Manchester knows this why did they pay him to do it?

The Jitty Slitter · May 11, 2017

YOUNGSTARS87 said: ↑

So you think juventus colluded with Raiola to con Manchester into also representing them in a transfer for a player they're trying to sell?

How does that make any sense? The reality of the matter is its not legitimate for him to represent all sides. The question asked would be when Manchester knows this why did they pay him to do it?
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Utd have not been conned - they know exactly how much they are paying and all these numbers will have board approval and will be audited.

The point my fine feathered friend, is for Juve and Raiola to divert money away from Juve where it has to be accounted for as a transfer fee

For example, the payments from Pogba himself (or on his behalf), to Raiola provide the perfect mechanism for cash disguised as salary to find its way to 3rd parties no?

If you think Raiola is keeping all £41m you are very naive.

The Jitty Slitter · May 11, 2017

cr7torossi said: ↑

Ok catching up on this story, the leak alleges that Raiola got paid the following
- 27m euros out of the 105m that we paid to Juve (3rd party ownership which everyone but ABUs knew about).
- 19.4m euros for acting as United's representative in the transfer
- 2.6m euros for acting as Pogba's representative in the transfer.

Now, the first of those amounts could be claimed to be Juve's cut to Raiola for promoting and selling Pogba at the highest price.

If true, that would mean Raiola was representing all 3 parties in the transfer which would be a serious breach of conflict of interest.
Click to expand...

The key words are "if true"

But its clearly a nonsense that Raiola can be adding anything like that value

IMO the real position is this deal cannot be done unless Raiola's price is met.

In other words he is best viewed not as an agent. but the co-seller.

Juve control the transfer registration, Raiola controls the economic rights.

And now Utd have to keep paying Raiola stage payments - which is the disguised TPO payments.

Ashur · May 11, 2017

The FA and FIFA want the matter of agent fees discussed.

www.bbc.com/sport/football/39882054

sdotsom · May 12, 2017

This is closer to third party ownership.

The Jitty Slitter · May 12, 2017

sdotsom said: ↑

This is closer to third party ownership.
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It's blindingly obvious isn't it?

It would also mean United paid a total of 127m euros (or 106m pounds) for the transfer, while Juve received 78m euros (or 65m pounds) from it.
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Let's review CR7s great summary above.

from 127m euros, Juve got 78m and MR 49m

How can this make sense where MR acts as an agent?

10%-15% i could believe but 38.5%??

Juve do not need MRs help to sell Pogba for EUR78m net.

Any clown can do that.

So why did Utd and Juve agree to let MR get a 38.5% cut?

The commercials only stack up if MR holds ownership rights somehow

JamesA · May 12, 2017

Exactly.

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

It's blindingly obvious isn't it?

Let's review CR7s great summary above.

from 127m euros, Juve got 78m and MR 49m

How can this make sense where MR acts as an agent?

10%-15% i could believe but 38.5%??

Juve do not need MRs help to sell Pogba for EUR78m net.

Any clown can do that.

So why did Utd and Juve agree to let MR get a 38.5% cut?

The commercials only stack up if MR holds ownership rights somehow
Click to expand...

Something dodgy clearly went down when PP originally joined Juve. That's the only explanation and probably how Juve got him, given he was a hot commodity for the price at that time. Loads of potential for a huge profit.

Question for me, how complicit were Juve in that arrangement and how close to 3rd party was it on paper. Was it a pre-determined % and how will FIFA interpret that. Technically, it's probably legal, but a very grey area.

I expect agent fee % caps are coming soon.

The Jitty Slitter · May 12, 2017

JamesA said: ↑

Exactly.

Something dodgy clearly went down when PP originally joined Juve. That's the only explanation and probably how Juve got him, given he was a hot commodity for the price at that time. Loads of potential for a huge profit.

Question for me, how complicit were Juve in that arrangement and how close to 3rd party was it on paper. Was it a pre-determined % and how will FIFA interpret that. Technically, it's probably legal, but a very grey area.

I expect agent fee % caps are coming soon.
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Juve are highly criminalised in my opinion

As you say, there is some dubious agreement between Juve and MR

I would not be surprised if execs at Juve get secret kickbacks from MR under side deals.

The Jitty Slitter · May 12, 2017

What will be interesting is what happens when Pogba reups at Utd

Do they have him clean or do they have to pay MR all over again

JamesA · May 12, 2017

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

Juve are highly criminalised in my opinion

As you say, there is some dubious agreement between Juve and MR

I would not be surprised if execs at Juve get secret kickbacks from MR under side deals.
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That's my thought too. MR gets massive commission, essentially paid by United.

Juve get modest fee, but nothing Earth shattering. Enough to make a good profit which can be justified in the fans eyes.

Then, MR kicks back a % of his commission months later, off books, direct to Juve directors. Harder to pin down that transaction.

sdotsom · May 12, 2017

The re-up at United is going to be very interesting. Raiola will be under incredible scrutiny to try and re-jigger a crazy fee for himself when he's actually doing very little.

I could see him try and renegotiate Pogba multiple times as he would be able to split his take up over multiple transactions.

barroldinho · May 12, 2017

JamesA said: ↑

Was it a pre-determined % and how will FIFA interpret that.
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Hmm... interesting conundrum...

So you're a party involved in a rather sketchy money-go-round, have little compunction against making iffy payments, and FIFA knocks on your door. What do you do?

United 16 · May 16, 2017

Manchester United predict record revenues of £570m despite failings

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/may/16/manchester-united-

Ashur · May 16, 2017

How must win the game vs Ajax really is from a financial point of view? It would cost the club £50mil...

www.bbc.com/sport/football/39937296

United 16 · May 16, 2017

Manchester United to pay Glazer family £18.3m dividend this year

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nited-?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard