Wow, just 2 CCC's. That makes you a World beater, huh? Alajuelense has done a lot more in Con-CACA then your whole league combined! That is kinda sad. As far as the WCQ goes, go cry me a river (as if I would care). I will be the first to admit that we have the easiest semis out of the big 3. Big deal! In 2002, we had the USA, Guatemala, and Barbados. Honduras had Jamaica, El Salvador, and St Vincent. It doesn't take a genious to know which one was easier. In 2006, we had each other along with Guatemala & Canada so don't cry to me about easy groups. It is sad when you have no basis to talk but still do anyway...sigan haciendo el ridiculo!
dude stop your attitude, its not always funny... try to be cool with the rest of the posters, you are making people leave this boards
And here's where we are now... Group Stage Houston Dynamo (USA1) DC United (USA2) Atlante FC (MEX1) Santos Laguna (MEX2) Saprissa (CRC1) CD Luis Angel Firpo (SAL1) CD Jalapa or Municipal (GUA1) Marathon or Olimpia (HON1) Preliminary Stage Pot A: New England Revolution (USA3) CD Chivas USA (USA4) UNAM Pumas (MEX3) Cruz Azul (MEX4) Alajuelense (CRC2) Marathon or Olimpia (HON2) Canada Championship winner (CAN1) San Francisco FC or Tauro FC (PAN1) Pot B: Metapán (SAL2) San Francisco FC or Tauro FC (PAN2) Hankook Verdes (BEL1) Harbor View (CFU1) Joe Public (CFU2) Puerto Rico Islanders (CFU3) CD Jalapa or Municipal (GUA2) Nicaragua winner (NCA1)
A Canadian soccer league team lost my local USL pdl team the michigan bucks 4-1. thats a u-23 team for those of you who don't follow usl that like the american 4th division.
In a friendly, right? And the Michigan Bucks are one of the best PDL teams, have been for quite some time.
Yeah I'm not ripping the PDL. I really like it. I have seaon tickets and we started a supporters group. Are you coming up for the open cup game? I'm just saying don't compare the csl to prp club teams.
Right, but that's the point IMHO. For people bitching about "Canada doesn't have a league", they are wrong: the CSL is a league and the country could send the champion of that to the CCL if the most important thing was to have a "league champion" represent. The problem is that the CSL champ is going to be much much weaker than a USL/MLS team, so why wouldn't Canada send one of its three fully professional sides? Isn't it in the Canadian Soccer Association's (and Canadian soccer's in general) best interest to send a stronger team? For that matter, does CONCACAF benefit from having a CSL champion over one of the USL/MLS Canadian teams? If the CCL is going to be viable (and if the sport is going to continue to grow in the region), then Canada -- one of the wealther, more heavily populated countries in CONCACAF -- is a key part of that. Having a weak CSL team enter the CCL and bow out quickly and unremarkably will do virtually nothing to "move the needle" in Canada.
Did CONCACAF officially bar Canada from entering or did they choose to not enter? Canada has been playing this game for a while now(they qualified for the 1986 World Cup ahead of both Costa Rica and the US, and won the Gold Cup in 2000.) Who´s fault is this? The Nicaraguan league has been around several decades but they never entered in anything until very recently, who´s fault was that? This is what I`m talking about, a semi-pro team(even if it´s the PDL´s second or third best team.) This has nothing to do with bitterness. You haven´t shown me which Canadian clubs are on par with Saprissa, Alajuelense, Olimpia, Communicaciones. etc. I don´t think on average their teams are better than Costa Rican, Guatemalan, or Honduran clubs. Canada(just like anyone else) should have to earn their stripes with results, instead of money or ¨potential.¨ American MLS teams to some degree have(though none have done anything notable outside of DC United.) This tournament deserves to have the best teams from CONCACAF represented, whichever countries they come from.
Canada had no means to enter the CCC. The CCC involved 2 teams from Mexico, 2 teams from the US, 3 teams from UNCAF (via the Copa Interclubes) and 1 team from the CFU (via the CFU Club championship). Canadian teams had no means to get any of those berths. Now, mind you, it's understandable that with such few spots in the CCC that no mechanism for Canadian entry existed. The solution for that, however, would be to expand the CCC and allow for teams from additional federations to enter -- which is exactly what has occurred with the CCL. If you must place blame somewhere, it would be CONCACAF's "fault". They've never involved Canada in a club tournament. With the CCL, given it's size, they understandably have included Canada. I'd venture to say it was Nicaragua's fault. I'm sure they could have participated in the Copa Interclubes as a member of UNCAF if they wanted. That they had not done so until fairly recently isn't CONCACAF's fault. And, nevertheless, they have participated since around 1999 or so and have thus had a mechanism for entry to the CCC. That they haven't participated in the CCC was merely the fault of having teams that weren't all that good. Well, that's debatable to begin with. But regardless, your statement isn't really true. The CSL isn't really a "new" league -- they are a reorganization of the Canadian Professional Soccer League (CPSL) which itself was a reorganization of the Canadian National Soccer League. The league basically traces it's existence back to 1926 in some capacity. The older team in the league (Toronto Croatia) is over 50 years old (founded in 1956). Anyhow, though, the CSL teams aren't the top teams in Canada. So, I don't see why it would make any sense to have a CSL be the entry to the CCL over the full professional and higher quality sides in the USL/MLS. The only thing being "put forth" about Canada is them getting the minimal entry (one spot) at the lowest level (qualifying round) of the CCL. They are being treated like Nicaragua and Belize for Pete's sake! That's hardly catering to them -- it's treating them like an actual member of CONCACAF instead of ignoring them. As for the US, we can debate how many spots they deserve and such, but it's silly to pretend they haven't played well internationally. While they have not fared well overall against Mexican and Costa Rican sides, they are much closer in quality to those teams than to the rest of CONCACAF teams. MLS certainly deserves a fair share of entries (and, unlike Costa Rica, MLS has shown itself to be a deeper league with a variety of teams qualifying and playing respectably over the years in the CCC unlike having just two teams repeatedly). Um, how the hell can they "show you" anything if they don't play against those teams. The CCL will actually allow Canadian teams to have a chance to prove their worth (or lack of it). That's kind of the point. How in the world can they "earn their stripes" without actually playing? Other than giving Canadian teams entry to the CCL (again, with one 1 bid, at the earlier round), how do you propose having Canadian teams be able to get any results? Well, absolutely. But the only way you can ensure that all the "best teams" participate is to allow some mechanism for every team in CONCACAF to play. Under the CCC, there was no way for Canadian teams to even gain entry. Under the CCL, federations in CONCACAF have a way to have their teams qualify. That's the way it should be.
Just because you have a bunch of teams winning a league it doesn't mean it has "depth lol That is called inconsistency. When a team becomes the top dog for 1-2 years and then drops to an embarrasing level (and we have had living proof of that in the MLS). And to be honest, MLS really has no depth. Quality, yes. Quantity, no. The Costa Rican league is more or less the same as the MLS. How do I know? Here is the big secret. Are you ready? Are you sure? We will see...here it is... I watch both leagues for christ sakes!
I agree. A lot of people seem to be bitching about the setup of the CCL, but I haven't seen many solutions as to what would make for a better tourney. Given the limitations implicit with CONCACAF, I think the setup with some minor tweaking (I've repeatedly suggested that Costa Rica deserves 3 spots and Panama should lose one of theirs) would be quite good. I don't see how excluding countries like Canada makes things better or enhances the confederation. The big thing I'd like to see is a mechanism to have coefficients or seeding with published, established and transparent criteria so that future spot allocations would be alloted based on performance. But this Jack Warner and CONCACAF so expecting anything to be transparent is probably asking too much.
This here was my point from the beginning. CONCACAF is complicated and someone with the knowhow to set things up should be running things. Instead we have Warner. Canada, Bermuda, and Puerto Rico have benefitted enormously from having MLS and USL franchises, and other countries will most likely follow suit in the future. What happens if the Bahamas, Guam, the Virgin Islands, etc. decide their best shot at developing their football is to set up an MLS/USL/PDL team in the future, how many spots will the MLS and USL leagues end up with? This is the only other thing I have a problem with. I´ve heard endlessly on these boards that the CRL is just Alajuela and Saprissa. MLS teams have had a rough time with mediocre CRL squads like Puntarenas, and other mid-level teams like Cartago have won international competitions when they managed to qualify. Costa Rica has two consistent monsters who are always guaranted to be in any tourney, but for the most part the level of the rest of our clubs is unproven internationally because we only get two slots. Suppose Mexico was only allocated two berths, and Chivas and America happened to win them almost every time, would that make Pachuca/Santos/Atlante crappy teams, and would that mean their league isn´t deep and other federations deserve more berths than them? In any tournament(anywhere else in the world) winning means your federation/confederation earns more slots. I´m not agreeing or disagreeing with any of this(other than the fact that all teams deserve access.) I don´t know what Canadian clubs are capable of internationally since they haven´t entered much before(though Toronto FC is far from being a top MLS team.) But we have achieved much more internationally than any league except the FMF(who we bettered in the WCC.) Saprissa and Alajuela don´t win all their league games 10-0. More of our teams should be given the chance to prove themselves(just like Canada) and shouldn´t be kept out just because Alajuela/Saprissa are that good.
Well, I don't know how "enormously" Bermuda has benefitted at least -- their franchise is like 1 year old. But anyway... Guam is in the Oceana confederation FWIW, but... so what? If a bunch of Caribbean countries have USL teams and then participate in the CFU Club Championship and qualify for the CCL, I'd argue that would be a good thing. If you end up having teams that are able to match up with and defeat the teams from T&T and Jamaica that have dominated the CFU then that means the overall level of club play in the CFU (and CONCACAF in general) is improving. That's exactly what you want to happen. Besides we are only talking about 3 total CFU spots anyway in the CCL. That said, I think the odds of significant USL expansion to the Caribbean is unlikely. The league doesn't have a lot of money (in the grand scheme of things) and transporting teams to the Caribbean isn't cheap. Bermuda is a somewhat special case as it is closer to the base of USL-2 (most every USL-2 team is on or near the east coast of the US and the furthest west is a team in Cleveland). The USL has had enough problems expanding within the US as teams have often folded due to operation costs and losing money. Well, do you deny that LDA and Saprissa are the dominant teams in Costa Rica? I mean, it's not exactly a stretch to point that out. Um, the one time an MLS team -- in pre-season form, no less, played Puntarenas in a competition, they won. Rough time? If that's the case then all the times that Saprissa has needed added extra time to defeat MLS teams, they must really have been struggling. Wow, Cartaginés won the CCC once, in the "Mexican clubs don't give a shit about this tournament" era. And people complain about MLS teams having won the CCC on home soil? I hardly think that that means that Costa Rica is a deep league. Well, they are guaranteed except for the times when they fail to qualify -- like LDA being knocked out by Municipal this past year or Saprissa losing to Victoria in the 2006 Copa Interclubes. Don't get me wrong: those two Costa Rican clubs are strong and deserve a lot of credit and kudos, but don't pretend that nobody can compete with them. Despite the excellent results in the CCC, other Central American clubs have had their share of victories against them in meaningful games. Well, there is three spots available for UNCAF teams and three Costa Rican teams participate in Interclubes, so it's possible for three CR teams to have qualified for the CCC some years. And it's not like both Saprissa and LDA have qualified for the CCC every year. No, but... (1) the same teams don't win the Mexican league every year. That's a big reason we know their league has a lot of internal parity (2) the FMF has only had 2 berths every year in the CCC and it's had different teams and (3) Since different teams make it and perform well, we don't have to guess. As mentioned, three Costa Rican teams make the Copa Interclubes every year and only once (Puntarenas in 2007) did a different CR team make the CCC. Actually, not really. Only UEFA has a transparent coefficient system. Pretty much every other confederation simply sets the spots based on how strong they think the leagues are. Have you every seen how Asia assigns spots? They just randomly announce "well, this country is getting 2 spots this year and this country is out". It's awful. Why don't all teams deserve access? How can you deny a member federation from sending a team? I mean I can see the argument that some teams should have to "play in" to be in the main tourney -- that's basically the role that Copa Interclubes and the CFU Club Championship has played (and the latter will continue to play -- but it's simply wrong to have a member country be unable in anyway to send a team. Canada (and Belize and Nicaragua and all the Caribbean islands) should have some way to send a team and luckily with the new CCL they do. Right. And here's the key thing: now we will, since a Canadian team will actually be playing in the CCL. As it should be. The only way to see if a team deserves to be there is to let them play. I don't think anyone is denying that Costa Rica has performed quite well in international club competition. Hell, I don't think anyone has denied that CR deserves more representation in the CCL. I know I totally agree with that. I'd like to see a third (at least) CR team involved to show what they can do. They should get a chance to prove themselves just like Canada should. The point being that the most reasonable place to take spots away is from Panama or El Salvador (what the hell is El Salvador doing with a group stage entry anyway?) or even have some sort of play-in between Belize/Nicaragua/Canada/CFU teams. All the complaining about Canada getting representation is crap though -- they definitely deserve a shot, just like every country does.
Don't give me that bullshit excuse. The Mexican teams actually cared enough to fill the stadium in Las Vegas in the final when Cartagines beat Atlante 3-2. Don't downgrade a honorable AWAY win for two crappy home wins. The other Costa Rican team, Herediano, made it to what would you call a "quaterfinal" of sort. There is a big difference from having your 3 teams face another 13 to unjustly qualify then receiving two unearned automatic spots. Really, how do MLS teams reaches the semifinals 9 times out of 10? Beating non-Costa Rican Central American teams and Caribbean teams. That's all. I already explained your sorry Puntarenas excuse. Please, please, please don't compare MFL to MLS. Please, now you are embarrasing yourself. MLS is 50 years behind MFL. AFC does it by assigning almost an equal amounts of spots because of the history. For example, since 2001 the AFC Champions League final has had a team from 7 nations. You can't compare that to CONCACAF in which we have had the final occupied by two nations. Want to take a guess which two are? AFC is starting a very similar system as Europe to award the best leagues in the 09-10 season by awarding the leagues who does best, not give them away for money. CAF is the same thing. Since 2001, teams from 5 nations have reached the final. Once again, how many from CONCACAF? OFC should be a no brainer as to why they do it their way. South America & Europe are self-explanatory. Right. And here's the key thing: now we will, since a Canadian team will actually be playing in the CCL. As it should be. The only way to see if a team deserves to be there is to let them play.[/quote] I am not denying that Canada should get represented. As a matter of fact, I welcome it. Everyone should get representation. But that should only come when you have a viable system to do it. Don't you think it is unfair to the many teams in leagues in this continent to qualify the way they do while the Canadian rep only has to face 2 teams in total? I want you to find where anyone is complaning of having a Canadian team in this joke of a tournament. Shit, I wish Limon could get in the CCL just playing two matches.
is santos going to be playing this tournament? if so game over they are undefeated in their home they play in a stadium that in my point of view is more complicated than Azteca
Yeah, Santos is in, and I'd favor them heavily. They are hell of tough to beat on the road and at home, well, nearly impossible. Corona is a bitch to play in and I couldn't be happier about that. Imagine taking the hardest of the hardcore of any major club, and putting them all in a stadium half the size they should be in. Kind of like Saprissa really, but a better team. That's just the fans. It's HOT AS ALL HELL in Torreon, so they have that advantage as well over some of the more tropical and northern clubs.
I don´t know man, I´ve been in the Azteca(as a fan) and played in Santos´ stadium, to me only Toluca´s is harder than the Azteca. Puerto Rican football owes almost everything to the Islanders, and if Canada become´s CONCACAF´s 3rd power it will almost certainly be due to Toronto FC and whoever comes next. They won on aggregate and goal differential, but they lost the first leg, there´s a big difference between winning in overtime and losing outright. And Puntarenas hasn´t been in the CRL very long. I, basing on what I´ve seen, think Costa Rica has CONCACAF´s 3 or 4 best clubs outside of the FMF, DC United, and Olimpia. The MLS has more parity than the CRL but it is far from being a deep league, only the FMF can really claim that. LDA is having some economic and other problems right now(and for some unexplainable reason have sold some of their best players) but Saprissa is waaay ahead of just about anyone else in CONCACAF, other than Mexico´s best teams, as much as I hate to admit it. But bottom line it´s the exception rather than the norm when either team doesn´t make it. You read me wrong, I was saying all teams deserve access. El Salvador is relying on the past glory of being a former power. Anyways, the CRL does have a few very lousy teams that would struggle in the USL, but others like Herediano which aren´t far from the level of Saprissa or Alajuela, and are probably right up there with CONCACAF´s best clubs. I can´t prove it since they´ve never entered(just like it can´t be proven with results that the MLS is slightly better than the CRL, but anyone objective who has watched both leagues knows that´s the case.) I can´t really asess Canada since I haven´t seen enough of their clubs, but my only beef with either MLS or Canada receiving a large amount of spots was the argument about money and potential.
Yea Santos is tought, since September 2006 they've only lost 1 game at home. So thats a year and 9 months. The fans are also close to the field, and like you said its really hot in Torreon. The tournament will start in August, and the average high in Torreon during that time is lower then in June and July, but its still high, its 92 F. And all the way through October the high is 85.
Interesting to note that CONMEBOL just released an article about the impending draw for Sudamericana and listed all the qualified teams and mentioned there will be 3 from CONCACAF as usual and.... there is absolutely no mention of Saprissa. I think it's quite clear that whomever the last team from CONCACAF is, it won't be a team playing in the CCL.