Qatar 2022

Discussion in 'FIFA and Tournaments' started by Nico Limmat, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    Real change will only be achieved through political pressure. Not FIFA or some company muppets paying lip service. But then who will spend billions and billions on (Western) weapons for a war in Yemen?

    Colour me pessimistic.
     
    AlbertCamus repped this.
  2. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    #2402 Rickdog, Apr 19, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2016
    There's no need to cite "weapons for war" here.

    Just take a good look at this report refering specifically to Qatar, by the ITUC (International Trade Union Confederation), from last year (2015), which together with Amnesty, are among the leading forces against those who abuse on workers rights round the world. Specially from pages 12 to 22, which refers specifically to whom hires most of that foreign working force in Qatar :

    http://www.ituc-csi.org/IMG/pdf/qatar_en_web.pdf

    This whole report is really not nice for Qatar, but if you look at those specific pages, you'll find out that a great part of all the athrocities being done to workers in Qatar, are directly or indirectly, done by western companies which currently are doing business there (or building Qatar, if you want it in other words).
    .
    .
     
    AlbertCamus repped this.
  3. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    Agreed. Let's steer away from that political minefield (Yemen).

    The point is there is no political will to force any change in the GCC countries. The reality on the ground is that foreign government representatives lobby hard to set up contracts for their buddies in the private sector. I have seen many times here in the UAE.

    Make no mistake, I welcome the spotlight on the labour conditions in the GCC. But people need to take a step back and see the big picture. How did we get here?
     
    AlbertCamus and Rickdog repped this.
  4. whitecloud

    whitecloud Member+

    Jan 25, 2009
    Gulf Shores, AL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Country:
    United States
    When change happens in the region it will be sudden, violent and probably not beneficial to human rights progress in the slightest.
     
  5. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    I disagree.
    Currently, changes are under way. At least authorities there, recognize that they have a problem and they've shown will to change it. For improvement, that's a very big step towards it, and till now, it hasn't been violent at all.
     
  6. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    I'm talking about applying real (diplomatic) pressure on existing governments in the region. Why doesn't it happen? Due to fear of losing business opportunities to someone else. Business interest trumps human rights.

    By now we (i.e. the developed world) have let the GCC region buy into our clubs (PSG, Man City), our leagues (MLS), and our companies. We don't have a problem with defense contracts either. The funds flowing into our economies are directly linked to the labour conditions we are lamenting on here. What moral leverage do we have to tell the countries in this region that they can't host international competitions/events like the World Cup?

    “How dare you spend your money at home on vanity projects” doesn't sound like a convincing argument to me.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    United States
    By definition, a major company can't have a personal agenda. They're corporations.

    Now, about these left wing corporations...
     
  8. goussoccer

    goussoccer Member+

    May 23, 2001
    Avon, CT
    Interesting that FIFA says it will monitor worker conditions in Qatar.

    http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016/04/22/qatar-world-cup-2022-fifa-labor-conditions-panel

    Why has it taken them so freaking long???!!! I guess they had to wait for their own paid report to tell them what every other major organization that is respected around the world has been reporting for years.

    Glad to see some reaction, let's see if they can make it the right reaction....I get that Infantino was just elected and am willing to give him some time, but this issue is so egregious, I'm thinking it will be a litmus test for him and the FIFA. Sorry Qatar, but the world is up in your business and you better deal with it/change quickly or you are in serious trouble of losing the World Cup. Human rights issues that major sponsors are reacting to and your own sponsored study points to, is just a very heady mix for an organization that is trying to say it's not corrupt and able to 'advance human dignity."

    A quote from the Rugie report on how FIFA handles Human Rights. Titled, by the way: "'For the Game. For the World' FIFA and Human Rights."
    The scale of FIFA’s global activities and relationships means that acting on its commitments has the potential to be a landmark for advancing human dignity through sports around the world.​

    Something FIFA has stated in different ways over the years, but very directly put in the Rugie report.
     
  9. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Country:
    Chile
    :thumbsdown:

    Instead of posting over a report that wants to add some sensationalism over what they are reporting, just take a look at their own sources (click over the highlighted in red part "announced friday"),which links directly to FIFA pages where it clearly says, (I quote here, last phrase first parragraph) : "The FIFA President was very pleased by the positive reaction and the support offered by the Qatari authorities for this initiative".

    It also adds further on, how Infantino says, that everything is being done as expected, together with giving congratulations to the locals for what they've done till now, and no where in the whole report, it says anything about taking away the WC from Qatar.

    (in any case, here is the link) :

    http://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/news...ersight-body-for-workers-welfare-2782174.html
     
  10. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    I foresee the following outcome. Infantino manages to improve the conditions of the laborers working directly on the World Cup infrastructure (i.e. stadiums) but without a sweeping labour reform affecting other projects like the Doha Metro or Lusail City. Qatar will concede at this front and then things are back to normal in 2023.

    At this point it's probably the best we can hope for.

    I already mentioned above that the enforcement of human rights is the job of national governments but I would like to see bidding tied to an index where a minimum standard has to be met going forward.
     
    PabloSanDiego repped this.
  11. GunnerJacket

    GunnerJacket Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Gainesville, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'd put my money on that scenario, as well.
     
  12. AlbertCamus

    AlbertCamus Member+

    Colorado Rapids
    Sep 2, 2005
    Colorado, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
  13. PabloSanDiego

    PabloSanDiego Member

    West Ham United
    United States
    Jan 18, 2014
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Country:
    United States
  14. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    Please let's try to stick as much as possible to the tourism angle. I don't want this to turn into religious or cultural commentary. The laws are what they are. They can not in any way be defended from a typical Western point of view. All I can say is that incidents like this are not an everyday occurrence. Qatar is not Saudi Arabia. Far from it.

    Is Qatar liberal enough to be hosting a World Cup? Probably not, but here we are. A place like Qatar (or the UAE for that matter) is difficult to explain to an outsider who has never been here. Sex out of wedlock is illegal but nobody checks your marriage certificate at a hotel. And at that very hotel bar you will likely find prostitutes looking for customers in plain sight of the authorities who tolerate it.

    Cities like Doha, Dubai and Abu Dhabi want it all. Stay true to their conservative heritage and be attractive to global tourists. As a results the strict laws on paper are not frequently enforced but every once in a while you will have a case like the one above to remind everyone that it's not Ibiza.

    I know it sounds crazy, but this approach has worked wonderfully for Dubai so far.
     
    Suren01 repped this.
  15. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    That is exactly the kind of comment I don't want to see on here.
     
  16. sokorny

    sokorny Member

    Nov 6, 2014
    Westerm Australia
    Club:
    Perth Glory
    Country:
    Australia
    Not sure what prostitution has to do with the article. The articles suggests the women was at a hotel bar having drinks with friends when her drink was spiked. So it is illegal in Qatar to drink spiked drinks?? Also apparently illegal to get raped!
     
  17. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    United States
    Your comment implies that there is some point of view where a law that results in a rape victim being charged with a crime is defensible.

    That's morally bankrupt, to put it mildly.
     
    chook90, Chicago76, M and 2 others repped this.
  18. almango

    almango Member+

    Sydney FC
    Australia
    Nov 29, 2004
    Bulli, Australia
    Club:
    Sydney FC
    Country:
    Australia
    With the odd exception of those that are made an example of.
     
  19. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    I used the prostitution example to describe the environment to those unfamiliar with it (i.e. while "illicit sex" is forbidden it is widely tolerated)

    In my opinion the laws on illicit sex are the biggest "compatibility issue" for Qatar as a World Cup host. Not the often cited alcohol laws (which seem to get all the headlines) or the law's take on homosexuality (as it affects a smaller percentage of visitors). There will be a number of World Cup tourists with their unmarried significant other that are technically breaking the law just by staying in a hotel room together. For some reason no one talks about that.
    I fully agree with your closing line regarding anyone who wants to blame the victim here. The point is I want to refrain from diving into a cultural dissection of morality. I want to stick to the facts and keep judgmental comments to a minimum. For that type of discussion we have a politics forum here.

    The devil is in the detail. To be clear, rape is an illegal act in Qatar. But proving it can be a tricky (and risky) process. For example, the victim may have to explain why she was alone with the perpetrator in the first place. As for spiked drinks, some of these drugs can not be traced in the body after just a mere few hours. At that point, confronted with the definite knowledge that sex has taken place outside wedlock, the police may feel the need to act in the absence of any other evidence.

    Now let's step back for a moment. Generally speaking Qatar is a safe travel destination. That includes single women. You will not get harassed in the streets like in other countries. Having said that, certain precautions should be taken before heading out for a night at the bar and/or night club. I would advise to go (and return) in groups and don't accept any drinks that you didn't order. Sound advice for any location in the world but even more crucial here. You don't want to be in a situation where you seek justice after the fact. The system simply does not protect you well enough.
    Absolutely. I find cases like this the most tragic. My sympathy is more restrained in cases like the Dubai "beach sex" incident from a few years ago that involve people terribly interpreting their surroundings and what is acceptable.

    I'm glad to see a fair bit of international coverage on this case. It reminds the Qatari authorities that there are different views of morality elsewhere. A crucial consideration when you are trying to build a tourist destination.
     
  20. almango

    almango Member+

    Sydney FC
    Australia
    Nov 29, 2004
    Bulli, Australia
    Club:
    Sydney FC
    Country:
    Australia
    I suspect having sex in a public place like the beach is illegal in most countries.
     
  21. glennaldo_sf

    glennaldo_sf Member+

    Deportivo Wanka, Semen Padang, Dinamo Bender, Fotballaget Fart
    United States
    Nov 25, 2004
    Doha, Qatar
    Club:
    FL Fart Vang Hedmark
    Country:
    United States
    Too many shells....

    Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
     
    Nico Limmat and Prawn Sandwich repped this.
  22. PabloSanDiego

    PabloSanDiego Member

    West Ham United
    United States
    Jan 18, 2014
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Country:
    United States
    OK fair enough and I apologize. My objective wasn't to try to drag this topic into a discussion that's off limits but the point I was making was the effect that publicized events like this would have on female supporters trying to decide if they want to make the trip to Qatar for the tournament. In our US supporters group here in San Diego, we have a large percentage of female supporters, many of whom are not just wives and girlfriends of male supporters but supporters in their own right.

    I will also say to add on to your point about Qatar being a safer place to be than most countries for females, the media takes these incidents and makes it seem like these sensational occurrences are the norm. It happened in Brazil prior to WC2014 where the media had many convinced that it was almost a certainty that all tourists would be robbed, mugged and assaulted while in Brazil. There was at least one poster here on BS who cancelled his trip because of fear of the crime. As those of us who went there know, with just a bit of common sense Brazil was safe and crime not a worry.

    As for Qatar, what is the expectation for a group of female supporters who want to attend in a small all-female group or maybe even solo? Doha doesn't have to be Ibiza or Rio but how conservative do they have to dress, act, etc? Can they go out alone and drink in legal establishments and feel safe? Certainly potential LGBT attendees have concerns also. My assumption is the answer is 'yes', especially during the tournament itself everyone will be OK, but I am sure more articles of this kind will be coming out. These types of stories get more reads/hits than a story about how nice Qatar is.

    Sorry if this is still off topic but I'm interested to hear what it's "really like" from someone who has spent time there, as I expect the media reports to be really sensationalized in the lead up to the tournament.
     
  23. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    #2424 Nico Limmat, Jun 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
    No need to apologize, the article you linked is perfectly relevant. I would just like to keep the Islamic element out of it as it is a very emotional topic these days. Let's just agree Qatar has strict laws.
    You got the right impression. You are unlikely to be harassed on the streets as a woman. Taking a taxi is generally safe and Uber is available too. The labour class may stare at you occasionally (especially if you are blond) but that doesn't mean it's necessarily sexual in nature. It's possible that worker simply has never seen a blond woman before, especially if he is new in town.

    You can do activities solo throughout the city and feel safe. However, I would recommend going in groups to bars and night clubs. Not because these licensed establishments generally feel unsafe, but because of the advances you may get from men. A woman on her own is typically seen as "working" so expect to be asked how much.

    The dress code guidance states that knees and shoulders should be covered but this isn't really enforced unless you are wearing something really provocative. Dress "normal" and you should be fine. You can get away with more at bars and clubs, basically venues catering to Westerners.
    Will add to the above some more tomorrow.
     
    superdave repped this.
  24. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Country:
    Switzerland
    @PabloSanDiego

    As for the LGBT community, they may visit Qatar "undercover" without too much risk. Like I mentioned previously, the hotels have not been tasked with screening their customers, be it unmarried couples are people of the same gender sharing a room. However, to be on the safe side I would order twin beds. Other than that be smart and keep your sexual orientation to yourself for the duration of the stay.

    What's it like living as a Westerner in one of the more liberal Gulf countries like the UAE or Qatar? Quite normal is the answer. Personally I have very much enjoyed my nearly twelve years here. There is an unwritten "social contract" between the conservative and liberal communities. Stick to yours and we will stick to ours. And it works surprisingly well. We live our lifestyle much like we would back home in bars/clubs/private clubs catering to us. Our lifestyle is not just tolerated - it is accommodated. In return a certain level of respect is expected in "common areas" for both communities. That includes public affection between couples, profanity, drunken antics in general and hot pants if someone insists on dressing that way. Some tourists come visit their Western friends, party in Western frequented establishments and forget to "switch back" when they go to the Mall for example. In a culture clash the conservative element will always win. The general rule is if you go out drinking stick to licensed areas and take a taxi between venues and back to your hotel. Don't start wandering the streets.

    Westerners often have a complex relationship with their host country. I know I do. I am generally very grateful towards the UAE. The country has given me a lot and I consider it home. At the same time my friends and I have the same reaction as you do when we come across an article like the one you posted. We can only shake our heads.

    Can I guarantee a visitor won't come in contact with some of the stricter laws on paper? No, I can't. Do I believe the risk can be minimized to an acceptable level to decide to come here and enjoy yourself as a tourist? Yes, I do.

    I think you mentioned you have been to Bahrain. Qatar isn't all that different. It's not everyone's number one choice for a holiday destination but it's not some "hellhole" either.

    People should come just to witness the mind-boggling contradictions mentioned above. :D
     
    PabloSanDiego and faiyez repped this.

Share This Page