Sorry - I did a poor job of explaining the situation. For those not viewing the video, here's the sequence. Mata plays a pass through to Fred, who is in an offside position. Just after Mata passes the ball, he's fouled in the area (again, I did think it was a foul, but apparently Atwell didn't think so or he was more focused on the subsequent pass to Fred). Fred scores, but the flag is up for offside. Atwell first converses with the AR while his hand is to his ear, indicating he is consulting with VAR (Jon Moss). Following the consultation, Atwell points to the spot. I would agree with @MassachusettsRef that while the idea of limited on-field review may be an OK idea in theory, it's not a good idea in practice to be so different in protocol with the rest of FIFA. In my opinion, this is a good case of where VAR would indicate something requires an on-field review and then the referee can look for himself. As I've said, the call on the field should have stood regardless of what it was. I personally thought it was a penalty, but I didn't think there was a clear and obvious error that Atwell missed a penalty.
They were just discussing this around the 85th minute, commenting on the protocol, etc, and suggesting that there was information that Atwell saw the potential penalty offence, and that was part of the discussion with VAR as to how it should be dealt with. That sounds much like what the Germans implemented last year -- for the most part it worked pretty well, and was much more like the rugby implementation. Just without the audible discussion.
Aussies started out like this and went away from it, from my understanding. A problem here, beside fan confusion, is that there simply are some differences of opinion which can lead to in-game inconsistency. Theoretically, every referee in the EPL should be calling all penalties the same, sure. But it’s just not reality. We had a few situations this past year in MLS where referees looked at OFR’s and essentially said “are you kidding? I’m not giving that...”. The OFR at least gives the referee the chance to veto the advice and maintain his own consistency for the match. He also gets to see what he’s giving (or not giving) so can feel more in control of the overall match management. Howard Webb has specifically cited this as a feature, rather than a bug, that ensures the VAR system gives referees more confidence rather than instills doubts and second-guessing. I just can’t see the English plan being good for a referee’s psyche. Atwell has to go the rest of the match “knowing” he missed a clear penalty but without seeing it until he’s in the locker room? Again, bad idea.
Perhaps Attwell saw the contact as worthy of a foul, but thought the OS was first so there was no call to make? Wouldn’t that explain both him not calling it initially and him not looking at the monitor?
That’s what I originally thought but watching that clip does not give the impression he even considered a foul. Plus additional reading suggests the other procedure.
https://streamja.com/v0Zk Here's another example. Atkinson plays advantage and eventually gives a yellow. VAR recommends a red for SFP and it's given without an OFR. This is pretty crazy from the FA.
It’s insane! It’s the right call in this case but Atkinson NEEDS to see what he’s giving so he can calibrate his game management for the next 45 minutes and also be fully confident in the decision. What if he finds out he disagrees with the recommendation at halftime?! And again, it’s going to irritate and confuse fans of the game globally when you have two entirely different systems. Also the management of dissent is tougher. With an OFR, you see it again and can tell the players “guys, I just looked, it’s 100%.” In this scenario what is Atkinson supposed to say? “My hands are tied. I agreed with you so don’t yell at me?” This is a bad, bad, bad idea.
I'm pretty confident that no way that is given in MLS that early in the match via VAR. I'm pretty sure that PRO would say it's not a red card "because no one was asking for it or expecting a red card there" Also, if given via VAR in MLS, I'm pretty sure it gets overturned by the review panel. It really will be fascinating to watch what the EPL does with SFP via VAR next season. The EPL is played at such a fast pace that you get so many rough challenges. If VAR is used the way it SHOULD be you should have more games ending 10 vs. 11 or 9 vs. 10. Will fans and players be happy with that? The English more than any other soccer culture have this obsession with referees keeping it 11 vs. 11. PRO decided to be really harsh and almost black and white on SFP and VC and then were not comfortable with so many games finishing 9 vs. 10 or one being 9 vs. 11 that they kind of pulled the reigns back on red cards for SFP and VC. Towards the end of the season VAR was practically used for just offside and the occasionally penalty decision.
What was Atkinson’s restart? It looks from the truncated clips that he’s calling a DFK. But that’s wrong. He applied advantage. The proper restart was still a throw-in. Unless England is just making that part up, too.
Not sure it gets overturned, but otherwise agree. I can’t imagine there won’t be some sort of backlash from the referees. If guys like Oliver and Atkinson and Taylor say “this is dumb, we need to do this like UEFA (will) and FIFA is,” that hopefully counts for something. Maybe this gets fixed before next year.
More VAR controversy in Fulham-Oldham. The penalty was eventually saved, keeping the game at 1-1, but it sure didn't seem like the Oldham defender made any contact with the Fulham attacker. Taylor went to VAR (Friend was the VAR), which didn't overrule the penalty call. I again fail to see why England doesn't want its referees to do on field reviews for calls like this. It's the 82nd minute of a 1-1 game where a League Two side has a chance to force a replay or even upset a Premier League team. Why wouldn't the referee want to review this play himself?
I’m at a loss. At least Taylor gave the caution appropriately for dissent but, c’mon, how is this not clearly wrong? https://streamable.com/zjwfn There are major issues here in England and the FA better get it straightened out. Probert thinks there’s enough to justify a foul call? In the strictest sense that there was the most minor bit of contact, maybe. But that’s not a real foul. That’s not a penalty. VAR was introduced to overturn these types of calls.
Either I didn't hear things well, or the announcer on Fulham/Oldham was wrong. He said Kevin Friend was the VAR for the game and not Lee Probert. I completely agree with you. This is the type of play that VAR is supposed to fix. It was a dive. The slightest bit of contact in the toe, but the Fulham guy goes down grabbing his shin. That sure looked like a clear and obvious error to me.
Assignments above said Probert and this announcer said Probert, but who knows? Very difficult to verify!
Isn’t it possible (and maybe even likely) that the attacker’s knee is in a more advance position than the defender’s heel? I feel like this would look different if we were looking at it perpendicularly. What type of technology are they using? I mean, this seems too close to call either way. In which case, call stands (offside). But if the FA has the technology to say make an accurate distinction here, so be it.
This is unfortunately not the correct frame as the ball is already coming off the attacker's foot, but it should demonstrate at the very least how close this decision must have been. Line is unofficial, regardless.
Saturday 12 January 12:30 West Ham United v Arsenal Referee: Jonathan Moss Assistants: Marc Perry, Andy Halliday Fourth official: Stuart Attwell Brighton v Liverpool Referee: Kevin Friend Assistants: Simon Long, Richard West Fourth official: Roger East Burnley v Fulham Referee: Martin Atkinson Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Harry Lennard Fourth official: Anthony Taylor Cardiff v Huddersfield Town Referee: Lee Mason Assistants: Stuart Burt, Matthew Wilkes Fourth official: Andre Marriner Crystal Palace v Watford Referee: Paul Tierney Assistants: Ian Hussin, Simon Beck Fourth official: Simon Hooper Leicester v Southampton Referee: Michael Oliver Assistants: Simon Bennett, Mick McDonough Fourth official: David Coote 17:30 Chelsea v Newcastle United Referee: Chris Kavanagh Assistants: Daniel Cook, Sian Massey-Ellis Fourth official: Craig Pawson Sunday 13 January 14:15 Everton v AFC Bournemouth Referee: Anthony Taylor Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn Fourth official: Martin Atkinson 16:30 Tottenham Hotspur v Man Utd Referee: Mike Dean Assistants: Darren Cann, Dan Robathan Fourth official: Andre Marriner Monday 14 January 20:00 Man City v Wolves Referee: Craig Pawson Assistants: Lee Betts, Eddie Smart Fourth official: Chris Kavanagh Dean back in the limelight, Moss for the London derby. Friend in action at Brighton as Liverpool looks to stop the rot.
Saturday 19 January 12:30 Wolves v Leicester Referee: Chris Kavanagh Assistants: Daniel Cook, Sian Massey-Ellis Fourth official: Roger East AFC Bournemouth v West Ham Referee: Simon Hooper Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Derek Eaton Fourth official: Kevin Friend Liverpool v Crystal Palace Referee: Jonathan Moss Assistants: Marc Perry, Andy Halliday Fourth official: Andre Marriner Man Utd v Brighton Referee: Paul Tierney Assistants: Simon Beck, Mick McDonough Fourth official: Lee Mason Newcastle v Cardiff Referee: Stuart Attwell Assistants: Stephen Child, Neil Davies Fourth official: Martin Atkinson Southampton v Everton Referee: Graham Scott Assistants: Harry Lennard, Andy Garratt Fourth official: Lee Probert Watford v Burnley Referee: Michael Oliver Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett Fourth official: Tim Robinson 17:30 Arsenal v Chelsea Referee: Anthony Taylor Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn Fourth official: Craig Pawson Sunday 20 January 13:30 Huddersfield v Man City Referee: Andre Marriner Assistants: Simon Long, Richard West Fourth official: Paul Tierney 16:00 Fulham v Spurs Referee: Craig Pawson Assistants: Ian Hussin, Eddie Smart Fourth official: Lee Probert Taylor for the big London derby, Pawson with the other London derby. Moss and Marriner in charge of title contenders. Dean gets a break.