Pre/PBP/Post USWNT vs Japan II (7pm Cary, NC)

once again you're making a normal act sound exceptional in pia's formation.

lloyd tracks back because amids are usually required to track back.

plain and simple.

 

Yawn!

 

Just wondering if we had any pros in here. Practicing medicine without a license gets you thrown in jail and as a coach I always wish we had even a fraction of that kind of respect for the coaching profession. I understand armchair quarterbacking, but when it crosses the line into public attack and humiliation it's over the line. Kudos to the large amount of people here who respect that and know how to communicate properly and respectfully.

 

License to be a professional ass, then yes.

I find my self compelled to discuss and argue tactics about a WNT with the least amount of tactical sophistication when compared to it's football peers . And now I'm about to do it again.

She's a poor center mid, and has now been moved further away from her most likely areas of causing trouble for her own team. Basically she comes back way to deep, and is a danger to her own team when doing it. It's not normal that a coach see's a player f*ck up so often, but then still insists they stay on the field in a slightly tweaked but very similar role. It's not normal to play a very high 2 forward tandem up top, very high wingers, and a advanced AM, in a side that can struggle to possess the football either.

Some people on here argue Llyod's a good player based on her goal out put, even though she's clearly bad at everything else. True attacking mids do many good things going forward, but these same players rarely make the reckless Llyod like decisions we see or choose to ignore so often.

Whenever Llyod comes back deep, you can see something bad happening for her own team. Sundhage moved her away from that possible danger of needless free kicks or bookings come the WWC, but playing a 4 mid with low ball retention means Llyod will have no choice but to try and help the defence more than she really should.

I imagine that we are going to hear plenty more moaning about what Llyod does and doesn't produce in Germany, when she can finally be compared to other nations #10 levels of performance.

 

The most salient point you made during this whole thread.

 

has now? she has always had to track back - that was always the source of her problems. she's not a great defender. but that's not new.

furthermore, good or poor center mid that she is, the point was that center mids track back.

you said "The only reason Llyod tracks back is because Sundhage's formation and tactics lack cover."

...and that's simply not true.

 

I think this is a really important point you make, because the dislike of Lloyd's role on the team from some quarters has been more of an indictment on Pia than Lloyd herself. After all, Lloyd is not writing her name in the lineup; Pia is. But the fact that at least three different WNT coaches have chosen to give her significant responsibility shows it's not just Pia that thinks the girl can play a little bit.
I would say also this is not the first time that the WNT has used a diamond formation with Lloyd or others at the top. They have done this before during certain periods. I think there seems to be expectations that Lloyd should be a traditional, interchangeable center mid and that's just not who she is. She is a pure attacking mid— not fast enough to play forward and not defensively oriented enough to excel in a center/holding role. And unlike what some others have said, I don't believe that is uncommon in the sport.
While I like Lloyd, I think we might see the next Rapture before she "gets her inner Shannon Boxx on." Shannon is more of a defensive player and Lloyd is more of an offensive player. Let's just hope she holds her own defensively and contributes offensively. Those are expectations I think she can actually meet.
But after watching our outside backs on the Japan games, I worry about that position of the field more than any other in WWC.

 

So every game we see, the U.S. back line doesn't see opposition attackers getting to turn and run at them totally free of midfield defensive help? Llyod can not defend, but she plays within a formation that forces her to do it.

Elite players in similar roles for their national team like Smith and Marta, do not have track back. Brazil and England's teams are set up to allow their two elite players to concentrate on being creative. Why is that such a difficult set up for USA to use for a lesser but very effective player like Llyod?

Smith is slow, but has impeccable technique matched with the decision making of football intellectual. Marta moves with the speed and poise of a petite big cat, harnessing the creative instincts of an artist. And then we get to Llyod. A player with a big cannon shot on either foot, with a often wildly directed power and athleticism difficult to replicate in her peers.

If Smith and Marta are examples of elite, rare, beautifully designed creative mids/forwards, Llyod is the Ikea designed range player that does what you need very well. If Llyod were just used better at times, maybe it could help hide some of the missing pieces to her game, and help highlight the good things of what make her function so well.

Playing Boxx on her own with wingers that don't come and cover spaces inside of them, definitely helps create a situation where the defence lacks cover. Against any decent attack, all that space in the zone between the midfield and defence is going to be a killer to try and patrol.

Philafan, hints at the U.S. using a different formation that would finally get Llyod away from the responsibilities she obviously can't manage. Even though you don't think the team lacks cover, I'm sure you can see the benefit of Llyod being played with something like two holding players behind her?

 

Lloyd Shared a starting role along with Leslie Osborne for the most part back when Greg Ryan was coaching. At the beginning of 2007 Lloyd was favored over Leslie until the world cup hit and Leslie was favored more so than Carli. Pia always plays Lloyd, and she always starts and has racked some of the most minutes since Pia took over. Pia also did make the choice to keep Lloyd in the center mid as the go to player she could have easily cleaned that up, but that never happened.

 

pia has tried woznuk, dimartino, averbuch. yes, in the last 2 years she has not done as much trialing in games, but lori lindsey has been tried out in that spot recently, and others have been brought in to camp to show their wares. pia has made her choice based on more info than we have.

of course, if she does not at least make the wc final, ussf should try somebody else's vision.

no.

(comparing lloyd to marta is just stretching it)

if they are playing the amid spot, they usually have to track back - maybe not as much as lloyd does, but they have to track back. and that difference can also be seen in a lot of teams. some have amids who track back a little, and some have amids who track back more.

you're trying to make it seem unusual when it is not.

 

The third was April Heinrichs in 2005 when the both overlapped (that's the year Lloyd first joined the team) and if memory serves me correct (which it might not), she played for her as well. At any rate, the point would be the same -- Ryan saw fit to play her a lot as well, which deflates the "Pia's pet" argument used so much with so little foundation behind it by some.
I would also say that Pia was forced to try other players at that position while Lloyd was out for six months last summer and I don't think anyone did enough took the job away from her. I would also agree with Luvdagame that others had their shot and Pia went with Lloyd-- fair or foul-- based on what she saw in practices and games.

 

Really? I thought Ryan played Chalupny, Osborne, Boxx, in a 3 mid, for most if not all the tournament?

I still think you miss my point. It's not just that Llyod has to track back from her position, and it's not where and how Llyod play's either. It's the collective unusual playing nature of the U.S. team as a group, and the way it's all put together which leaves me perplexed.

I have never seen any top sides in modern football play with so many players in advanced attacking positions when they can't consistently keep the ball. Especially teams that don't look that settled at the back either. It's unusual for a team to leave itself so open to trouble, just for one or two players they think can be threatening going forward.

I have to compare Llyod to SMITH and Marta, because they are top creative players, in good sides, that play similar roles to Llyod. Like it or not, that's how it is when your #1 ranked going into a WWC. People compare you to the best. When teams figure ways to include creative elements into their formation, it never looks as rigid as Sundhage has her team set up to play.

When any team plays 4-4-2, it's always unusual not to see one striker drop into the midfield to help dictate or break up play. It's unusual to see wingers that have so little help from fullbacks and vice versa. And it's universally unusual to see a team that can't dominate possession, leave themselves so open with it's formation just so one player like Llyod can hopefully shoot at goal more often.

 

by the way, I haven't been able to follow the conversation as closely as I'd like but there's an interesting exchange of views going on. I'll try to catch up soon.

Carry on.

 

Lloyd was a starting going into the WC and started the first game with Boxx and Chupa. Boxx was sat second game vs sweden and lloyd was sub'd at half for next two games.

Lloyd was flat out benched for the quarterfinal and semi's for her poor play in the group play. And she didn't play a minute in the third place game vs norway

It was pretty bad

 

, I saw all the U.S. games and honestly don't remember seeing Llyod in the group games at all. Damn, now I know why Llyod and Solo stick together so much. 07' really brought them together, in highlighting the worst of both of them.

Did Llyod play at the AM position with Chalupny and Boxx behind her?

 

we've always criticized their low skill level in the new era. they'e still #1 in the world. and they've beaten germany the last three times they played. i know it wasn't the wc, but these friendlies are the same games we're criticizing them for.

so you don't like their dependence on athleticism and strength rather than on skill at keeping the ball. that's not a new argument around here, and it has nothing to do with pia and lloyd. that's always been the uswnt mo. it just was not apparent before real footballing nations started paying attention to the game.

you're making it seem as tho it's so pia can have lloyd shoot. not true.

 

She started a game didn't she? When she was about seventeen?

 

Here is something for 2007 season:

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/US-Women/Schedule-Results/2007.aspx


Lloyd played full games vs N Korea and Sweden, played 64 vs Nigeria, came in 82 (for Boxx) vs England, played 2nd half (in for Lopez) vs Brazil, did not play in medal game.

 

Chup and Hao both got caps in their teens as well. Historically, a fairly large number of US best teen girls would get nat looks. not under Pia.

Lots of people here say you can't compete at international level until you're proven pro. I disagree. When you see talent you have to develop it at a young age.