Pre game discussions here is my up for evaluation...

Discussion in 'Referee' started by AspireNatlRef, Aug 2, 2007.

  1. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OK, I value all of your opinions and experience so a question posed to me recently was what are all the points I cover in pre-game.

    Here is my list (shortened for ARs I have worked with before...)

    "We are all here and know what to do so I am sure we will have a great game, just a few things to go over. Lets inspect the pitch and we can go over all of them. Stop me and ask any questions. (at center circle) for kick offs line up with second to last defenders. Follow offsides and slow flag. Stay in that position until I either wave you off or the defense begins attacking and then get back in position. (walking to far touchline) Indicate normally for throw-ins all along your touch line. I will usually defer to you, but if I disagree, I'll make eye contact and you'll know to follow my direction. If the ball goes in and out of touch anywhere on your line, then raise the flag so I'll know and indicated direction. (Walking to far goal) For goal kicks be at the 18 to be sure it leaves the box then run to get into the correct position. (At the goal mouth) before both periods, check to make sure the goals and nets are secure and get to your line. (Going to near corner) for PKs, stand at the edge of penalty area to judge for the goal. If score is obvious no indication needed, run back to line and up field. (at Corner) be on the goal line if on your side, stand about 5 yards back, be sure the kick is properly placed and judge for goals/early offsides. (Walking up touch line) Call the fouls in your area, especially ones that may be shielded from me with the standard signals. If in the penalty area, I'll make eye contact and after signaling move your flag to directly in front of you. If you see a cautionable or send off offense, put your hand over your badge. I'll come over and get the details unless I know what its for and then I am looking to your for confirmation. If you neeed to speak to me (for dissent from spectators, coach or any reason), if immediatly, pop the flag, then hold it horizontal in front of your waist. If it can wait till next stoppage then at stoppage pop flag. The other AR should mimic this signal if I miss it. Normal substitution process. If there is a delay somewhere in the game take the time to be sure we have 11 players on both sides, ect. I will keep time, but also rely on you. If I point to my watch then I am asking you how much time you have left in regulation--indicate with fingers over the jersey. If time is over a clenched fist. If I grab my watch wrist I am asking your estimation of added time for stoppage (sometimes I'll say something about stoppage being exactly what league rules say it is). (At second goal mouth) handling the ball means deliberate handling not just a glancing blow, so be carefull for that. I'll make eyecontact often with you if I think there is a foul or offside. Confirm if I look like I am questioning usually with a signal but a nice head nod works too, if you think its not a foul then use your non flag hand and show me your palm. You will see me signal "non foul" with my arms horizontal at my shoulders and I'll yell "no foul." If thats the case, unless I am just missing something crazy, follow my non-call. (Addidtionally if I am familiar with teams will give any insight and ask for insight about foul patterns) Finally any questions? Don't be afraid to come onto the field if its warented to keep players seperated for some heated event or to help enforce the 10 yard rule. Don't think you are married to the line. Lets give the players the best game we have ever refereed. Hopefully we won't make any mistakes, but if I make one, be sure to remember it and we'll talk about it at half.

    At this point proceed to check player quiptment (i get the ARs to do this while I talk to the coaches) and then we head to the circle for pre-game activities.

    Go over anything at half time, if shoot-out possibility we deal with that at full time.

    Any advice/criticisms/additions/subtractions? I have used the walk around pattern and have found that it keeps us on track and also get more questions about specific procedures from my ARs that wouldn't have occured if we did it standing in one place. I try to respect my ARs as that I also may say something that "they are ASSISTANT referees in the term that they have been trained to center (usually) so what they see is just as valid as what I see and don't be afraid to call something you see. But be sure to notice how I am calling the game and try and do so likewise. Remember we are hear to keep the players safe and the game fair... Keep that in the back of your mind all the time. AND HAVE FUN.":D

    I have found this works best for me and have had more people than not tell me they felt so much more comfortable with me because of this (15 mins tops) and were able to officiate better. Plus then they know what I want the next time and often will even throw in some element I had missed... Such great ARs:p

    Is this 15 mins to long? Am I spending too much time in one area and completly forgeting another?

    Just throwing it out there to see what I could change to be a better official.

    ANR
     
  2. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    I will start off with one area that you might want to think about, which is actually pretty important.

    "for PKs, stand at the edge of penalty area to judge for the goal. If score is obvious no indication needed, run back to line and up field. "

    You have not addressed the key questions for ARs at the PK:
    What if the goal is not obvious? (seems we just had a thread discussing this!)
    What about the GK moving early?
    What about field players encroaching?

    Is the implication of your instruction that you don't want any help on any of these points?
     
  3. ref47

    ref47 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    n. va
    the new lotg include what i believe is a change in this area. see p84.
    ar has keeper movement.
    ar sees blatant keeper movement.
    ball does not enter goal.
    ar raises flag to indicate need for retake.
     
  4. chrisrun

    chrisrun Member

    Jan 13, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is not in the USSF version of the LOTG. The 2007 USSF Proceedures state:

    Waits for the referee to begin
    supervising the restart and then
    moves to the recommended position
    (see diagram next page) to prepare
    for the duties assigned by the
    referee in the pregame conference
     
  5. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    Unless I am dealing with a very new AR, I don't go over standard positioning like on a kickoff/goalkick etc. I do remind them to make sure offside positioned player is involved before putting up flag.

    PK: I don't want them raising the flag for a keeper who jumps, I have them step onto the field, let's me decide if it was trifling without notifying the world that something happened.

    You asked to pat the badge of caution and send off, standard for send off is back pocket (at least that's what I thought).

    I do go over sub rules since so many leagues do this so different.

    I also go over fights/group confrontations, AR abuse/dissent I don't see etc.

    go over them setting the wall if right infront of them and far from me

    go over calling fouls, especially PK, I want eye contact before them calling a PK, for two reasons: 1) check to see if I am blocked/out of position 2) Give me a chance to wave them off subtly if I disagree, however if they think I am blocked OR they see something that feel is consistent with what I am calling, go for it (some of this changes slightly based on age/experience of AR)

    If game will be "tough" stress getting together quickly at the half and end of game to avoid one of us getting isolated.

    Ask them to back me up on score, and stress the order of who writes when so two/three of us don't have our heads down writing at once.

    If I am about to make a huge mistake (3 yellows, incorrect restart etc...) make sure I know it, flag it, yell etc. Get it right.

    I will give them a number of fingers towards the end of a period saying how much time I am adding NOT how much is left, but what I am adding.

    Random things for youth games: agree on the time of each half, size of ball, sub rules, how long have they reffed (adjust talk as required), parent/coach dissent
     
  6. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    I would discuss goal kicks only if I did not want the AR to check that the ball is set correctly and then at the 2LD, which is standard.

    ANR is saying "For goal kicks be at the 18 to be sure it leaves the box then run to get into the correct position."

    But I would not normally give this "18" instruction except for U-11 or other teams if they are likely to have trouble kicking the ball out of the box. If the players are older and not near the edge of the box on the goal kick, this instruction is not useful.
     
  7. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok well I agree with what many of you have said.

    I would not go over all these points for all games, but with people who are new, or I don't know their level, this is my comprehensive listing. When I see that they are familiar with what I am talking about, I'll gloss over some of the positioning. Just trying to be completly complete :)!

    On PKs, I will determine if the GoalKeeper moves earlier (i find this is often a trifling call) and was put in to keep the keeper from charging the kick. I do want the ARs attention to be only on the goal line for the ball. If it goes in (obvious or not) run to your touchline. I'll make eye contact to be sure its a gaol. If out of bounds flag striaght up and then when back on your line look to me for the restart I can usually see this, but if not, I'll change my mind if the AR indicates different. (i.e goal kick/corner)

    I like the step on the field for keeper movement and giving me the ability to determine the degree. Thanks NHRef1
    Also need to add info about booking goals and booking cards order. First me while ARs are watching field. Then trail, while I watch his side, then lead, while I watch his side. I want goal with player number and time scored. Booking with number and time and card Again thanks NHRef

    Also, I think that the signals for bookings/cautions is changing for ARs. But the tap the back pocket I sometimes don't get. AND THIS IS A CALL I DON'T WANT TO MISS, and I can see the patch pat, and I am going to go talk to the AR anyway so one sign for both works, but if I ever saw someone tap the back pocket, I'd know what they ment.

    In positioning for Goal Kick, you are correct, I misspoke. Look to the goal area for placement then get to the 2nd to last defender. Good catch nj ref

    For adding time, I have had a few instances where things have gone wrong... touched the button, watch died ect, so to cover my basis, I have the signal for time left and then one for added time... Maybe over doing it, but safe, not sorry.

    Anything else I should think about? You guys are great, really going to make this work well for all.


    ANR

    Next up: Halftime/post match subjects... (if you want..):cool:
     
  8. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    Depending on the game, you might want to consider handling the equipment check yourself rather than deferring it to the ARs. This can be a valuable opportunity for a first interaction with the players to set the tone (or at least to judge their tone).

    The "have fun" instruction is a good one. I like to remind them that we are a team of three and that I enjoy the game most when I am interacting with my team, so try to keep eyes with me and check in with one another as the game permits even if there is no reason for a flag, whether a smile, a thumbs up, or just an occasional nod.
     
  9. chrisrun

    chrisrun Member

    Jan 13, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This one may need some more explaining. If the CR is calling a foul that is near the penalty area, and makes eye contact with the AR requesting help regarding the location of the foul, the AR should place the flag in front of him to indicate that he feels it was a foul by the defense in the penalty area.

    If the AR is calling a foul by the defense in the penalty area, he should signal a foul with his flag, and when the CR stops the game, walk toward the corner flag.
     
  10. hefftheref

    hefftheref Member

    May 24, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, the pregame sounds good!

    although, if you are rushed time wise, rember;

    S M O G

    Subs

    Misconduct

    Offsides

    Goal-Scoring Opourtounities

    cover all these topics, and you will have a sucessful game.

    I wish i came up with it, but i didn't, and it has always worked for me!
     
  11. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You might want to be careful with fouls in the penalty area. Different refs like to handle this differently with their ARs, everything from, "Call what you see" to "The penalty area is mine alone". I want help from my ARs, but very circumspect help. This part of my pregame goes,

    "Fouls in front of you, give me a second to see if I see it too, then if I don't whistle, pop your flag and give me a direction. That goes for the penalty area too, BUT if you're going to call a penalty for me it had better be a '100% -sure-the-game's-going-into-the-toilet-if-we-don't-get-this-one' kind of foul."

    Last thing I need is an AR madly waving for a penalty early in the game for something I saw and thought was trifling. :rolleyes: It can set a poor tone and dig us a big hole.

    Also, in general I'd have less "standard" mechanics in your pregame unless you know you have a newbie ref. Assume they know what they're doing. Focus more on things that might differ from ref to ref. For example, calling fouls in the penalty area, when might or might not they drop a flag you don't see, special instructions on penalty kicks, substitution procedures, etc.
     
  12. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    Think about this again. If both you and your AR are watching the goal line area who is watching the kicker and other players at the top of the penalty area for other infringements??
    You need to allow you AR to handle the good goal/ no goals and keeper movement and you, as Referee, need to watch the kicker and other players for infringements. This is especially important now since the change to the Law 14.
     
  13. AspireNatlRef

    AspireNatlRef Member

    Jul 13, 2007
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes. I agree with this, I should state that I don't want the AR to FLAG if the keeper moves. That is done, by my pregame confrence, by having the AR stradle the line and if there is a keeper infraction step off the field of play and I'll know to talk to him. Thanks that is a much better explaination.

    Now with the change in Law 14, I only understood that it interprested that an indirect free kick is taking if there is a goal missed and it crosses the touch line with an attacker incroaching. Then its a IFK from the spot they crossed over. Previously, the restart was a goal kick.

    Is there something more that I am missing in the Law change? (other than behind the penalty mark for all playershis was to stop the "look for offsides" since both officials are out of play

    The double touch would be another IFK at sight of infraction. Also any of the technical fouls commited by a defender (alone, i.e with out any attacker foul) would result in an IDK at the spot of infractions subeject to the provisions of Law 8.

    Is there something else I am missing here? This was a clarification from USSF that we all got an email about... Just want to be sure there isn't another thing that I have forgot...

    Are there anyother changes not previously mentioned. And again, this is for times when I have new referees that haven't worked with me before, ect. It was ment to be comprehensive, but most pregames would be half this length... I don't want to talk anymore than you want to hear me...:cool:


    ANR
     
  14. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    No, you have it correct. The reason I said it was especially important is that the old instruction allowed for the Referee to watch the goal line as you originally posted. With the emphasis placed on the restart for any infringements after the signal is given and before the kick, it is even more important to be observant at the rights spots. Allowing your AR to do his job and the Referee to properly observe his area will help to control the issues that may come up.
     
  15. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    The change (made in July 2005) is that for infractions of Law 14 which happen between the ref's signal and the player's kick, there can only be 3 possible restarts -
    * A retake of the kick (goal scored but kicker's team infringed, goal not scored but keeper's team infringed, or both teams infringed regardless of goal scored)
    * A kickoff (goal scored and keeper's team infringed)
    * An IFK (goal not scored and kicker's team infringed)

    No more goal kicks when the ball sails wide. No more corner kicks when the keeper deflects the ball over the bar. This last one had been mentioned in Advice to Referees and by Jim Allen as a possible change for several years before the change was made. In order to catch that one, IFAB also brought up a lot of trash fish in a widely cast net.
     
  16. vabeacher

    vabeacher Member

    Jul 27, 2001
    Virginia Beach, VA
    What do you need to talk to the coaches about? I try not to talk to the coaches unless the approach me for something, or unless league policies call for a coaches meeting. I talk to the captains before the coin toss and tell them my policies for substitution, injuries, etc. I alwasy ask them to inform their coaches.
     
  17. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    Honestly, and I know I'll catch some grief for this, I'm not a big fan of such an extensive pregame. I don't think there is an AR who doesn't understand their call is offside, or to stay in the offside position. I also don't think there is an AR that doesn't understand they should signal or mirror my signal when the ball goes out. I'll assume they know the proper positioning.

    The things I like to discuss are:
    1) Eye contact at stoppages, and how to get my attention
    2) Mirroring my calls when in their quadrant, and that I will mirror theirs.
    3) They are responsible for the boundaries of their quadrant. I like a silent signal for the rest of the touch and goal line.
    4) If there is a mass confrontation, the lead AR helps out while the trail AR takes numbers.
    5) Please back me up on time and score.
    6) Unruly sidelines are dealt with the Good Cop, Bad Cop routine. The ARs are the Good Cops, they should be nice and polite as much as possible. Sidelines and coaches are allowed one polite warning from the AR. After that, call me over to be the Bad Cop and give a not so polite warning (or dismissal). If I have to come over twice, somebody is going home early.
    7) Don't be afraid to chat with players about playing nice, but don't be *too* chatty -- keep it nice and brief and to the point.
    8) Subs should be waiting at the half before entry, and players should be off the field before subs enter. Coaches get one warning about this, afterward they wait for the next opportunity. Subs either need to have a penny on or warm up behind you, otherwise it interferes with the other AR.

    That's about as extensive as I get. Referees who spend gobs of time talking about procedures and positioning lose my attention, and I end up missing out or forgetting the important stuff. Or the referee doesn't even know what the important stuff is in the first place...
     
  18. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    "Honestly, and I know I'll catch some grief for this, I'm not a big fan of such an extensive pregame. I don't think there is an AR who doesn't understand their call is offside, or to stay in the offside position. I also don't think there is an AR that doesn't understand they should signal or mirror my signal when the ball goes out. I'll assume they know the proper positioning."

    It depends what level you are at. At the youth level, many ARs are not very experienced. If you are lucky, the assignor gives you a heads up. That is why my first questions to the ARs are to try to figure out if I need to cover the basics.

    Sure maybe they know they are to cover O/S, but do they know that O/S is far more important than throw-in direction, that they should not retrieve balls, that they hold signals if you don't see them, that they should not keep running when signalling O/S? Oftentimes they either don't know or forget.

    My view is that it is better to cover too much, because if you assume that the AR knows the basics and they don't you are going to have a bad day. Who hasn't had an AR act like he/she knew everything and then fail to properly signal a goal or otherwise cross you up. Maybe a pre-game comment would have prevented a lot of agita.
     
  19. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    The "pre-game" is NOT just giving the AR's/4th's instructions. It is the first chance you have to begin the "team building" process with the crew. A pre-game should be more of an interactive process than a tutorial on what you want the AR's/4th's to do. Get the AR's/4th's more involved in a discussion of what you expect from them, and just as important, what they expect from you. Your goal is to have the crew all on the same page. Many holes that ref's dig for themselves could have been easily avoided by a proper pre-game.

    The first and most important thing in a pre-game is to establish a communication process that will be used during the match. This can vary based on experience level but a process must be established by the entire crew. If good communication is not achieved, then the rest of the pre-game is meaningless.
     

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