Post-Match USMNT vs. Uruguay 9/10

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by largegarlic, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. UncagedGorilla

    Sep 22, 2009
    Tulsa
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    It helps for sure but there are still scouting holes. You can look at basically any YNT roster and see that. I'd like to see a few more non-DA kids who play for Birmingham Fire or Boise Lightning (I just made those two clubs up) get speculative calls. I hated ODP and it had turned into a sham by the end of it's utility but there's no doubt it was set up to try and find players coming out of the woodwork. When I coached ODP, we would have rec kids from rural areas come out and a few of them actually made some of the state teams and one even ended up in MLS eventually. Those kids are totally forgotten if they can't drive to a DA team now. Same with the Hispanic clubs which, let's be honest, are probably more likely to produce top-level talent than rural Oklahoma but the point still stands.

    As to your second point, 100% agree. I want USSF to aide the academies by scouting and working to expand soccer into areas that aren't economically feasible for the academies to do. Leave the academies alone, except maybe further change the ways they can sell players!!!
     
  2. yabo

    yabo Member+

    Jun 1, 2000
    Poolesville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't be so literal. Think big picture and actually contribute to conversation rather sink to the level of "hand bags at twenty paces". By selling I mean the business plan for most of the league, including big teams like Borussia Dortmund are net sellers of young talent.
     
  3. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    Public High School soccer is what the club kids play for recreation.
     
  4. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    This Uruguay looked beatable but they can be a lot better. They'd destroy us in Montevideo in an actual competitive game.

    As someone who follows CONMEBOL regularly, all I know is that I hope the #4 of this region doesn't have to face the #5 of theirs.
     
  5. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    We really should be good enough to finish #2 or #3. Mexico aside, the other teams in our region aren't that good.
     
  6. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was true of last cycle as well.

    I can't believe how casual we are all still being after what happened. The team we brought to Couva kicks this teams ass right now.
     
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  7. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    #157 gogorath, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    I'm far from an expert.

    But simple steps:
    • Having an active spanish language website and social media presence. And not just token -- hire a staff to promote the national teams, DA teams and youth programs and even the US Pro Leagues - heck, have MLS, USL, NISA, etc. fund it.
    • Coordinating camps in Latino areas and specifically Latino groups (there's one group that reportedly USSF doesn't bother to scout for no apparent reason).
    • Having more Latino and bilingual coaches. I wouldn't make it a requirement, but it would be a plus. I would likely make it a requirement for at least one coach to speak Spanish on each staff.
    • I'd celebrate past players and success in general more, and within that, I'd include Latinos like Tab and Herc Gomez, etc.
    • Specific funding programs to provide facilities and coaching in underserved communities. Baseball once had a program called RBI that promoted youth baseball in inner cities, and when it was funded, it absolutely worked. This might be futsal courts, etc., but also establishing leagues, paying coaches, starting programs at youth centers, etc.
    I'm sure there's a lot of better ideas. But that's where I'd start.
     
  8. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [QUOTE="UncagedGorilla, post: 38149565, ] I'd like to see a few more non-DA kids who play for Birmingham Fire or Boise Lightning (I just made those two clubs up) get speculative calls. I hated ODP and it had turned into a sham by the end of it's utility but there's no doubt it was set up to try and find players coming out of the woodwork. [/QUOTE]

    I’d say just have patience as that is what DA and MLS academy teams are already doing. Removing restrictions on boundaries will help and there is serious talk about doing away with that. There are also more new teams on the way and very likely more in the future. They have a monetary reason to excel there and I expect lots of improvement in the future as teams copy and even improve on what the leaders are doing now.
     
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  9. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think that's a completely valid criticism.

    I think that the crux of the decision-making here. If we're focusing on the tactical choices (and not player selection), it's very clear that US Soccer wants to play this positional or possession system and elevate the play from bunker and counter or press and counter to a style that is not only more aesthetically pleasing but also has a strong element of control.

    I'd argue that the team would be well served to play this way in possession even in games where we fundamentally play mostly a counterattack style. The skills and patterns learned here are applicable in any game. A grind-it-out team is less versatile at its heart.

    So it comes down to a few things on what you believe:
    • Is this the optimal game plan for our current talent pool or near term pool?
    • Is this talent pool capable of playing this way?
    • Is this talent pool capable of learning to play this way via the National Team in time for this World Cup Qualifying or the World Cup itself? How much can a National Team Manager affect this?
    • When is the last day that the team can abandon this experiment and still have a strong alternate, simpler strategy for qualification or Qatar?
    • What is the opportunity cost of trying this now?
    I think people who are in several buckets:
    • People who haven't thought about this at all and in the moment and hate losing
    • People who think the style doesn't fit the pool, won't fit the pool and/or can't fit the pool in this cycle
    • A few people who would rather not play this style ever or at all
    • People who think that we probably won't be able to play this way this cycle but there's upside in trying and we haven't reached a drop dead point
    • People who think we will develop our players into playing this style or that the youth will fill in quickly enough to do so
    I'm sure there's more.

    For me, I think that the team and players can develop somewhat. I'm not stressed or annoyed with setbacks in friendlies in service of a larger goal. And I think that what we try and learn here will help us even if the experiement is mostly pulled back later.

    I don't think we'll get to the point where we can dominate the ball against more talented teams. Who can? But I don't think we've reached the point where qualification is really at risk, and I do think that Berhalter and the Federation will be pragmatic when push comes to shove. Perhaps I'm wrong there -- but someone should ask Earnie.

    We're reaching the break point soon on that, though. And I do think noting that even within an acceptance of the experiment, so to speak, the jury is still out on Berhalter.

    He has a weaker pool than most admit. It's super thin and injuries have hurt. the schedule has been odd -- mostly weaker teams and then a superior Mexico side. And what people are asking of him takes time and probably involves setbacks. Most caveats are valid.

    But he also hasn't exceeded expectations yet. I know most would say he's failed, but honestly, #2 at the Gold Cup is exactly what 90% of coaching candidates would have pulled off. I see lots that I like about Berhalter and lots I don't like.

    We'll see. Things need to progress. The timeline is shortening.

    If people don't think Earnie and Gregg will be somewhat pragmatic, I understand the panic. Gregg has a history of being more pragmatic than he talks, though, at least in Columbus.
     
  10. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not when you're poor. Or an immigrant. Or both!
    I will say all my school teams had boys that played for a club. 90% that is as there are the boys that want to play for both but have to work just to provide for their parents.
    For me, association football has on lock for generations that a player seek to play for two jerseys at a time. His or her club jersey. And their National Team Jersey . So I focus my players to take their youth career path as of course have your club team. With players from different sides of your town. And yet your neighborhood is your country. Your local high school jersey is your National Team. Where the coach has to pick a squad from what the neighborhood supplies. Thus a player learns to find success with perhaps a better club side, but can learn to lead his neighborhood team. Think of George Weah who played for AC Milan at the club level, had to lead Liberia in international play. Ryan Giggs or Hristo Stotchkov where their club mates were quality but would always suit up for Wales n Bulgaria respectively.
    In the end, the ball teaches more than any coach ever will amigo. So the more games with different coaches, teammates and playing surfaces is a tremendous teaching vehicle for any youth player. Lived this for years now here in SW Houston.
     
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  11. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    "La bola no miente" (ball don't lie) is the old dictum and it means not only that a player will miss the PK he earned through deception (subconscious sabotage, that slice of basic human decency most of us carry), but that in real-world games, whether for your 'hood or your club or your country, no matter how you look in practice, how good is your theory, or how amazing your natural abilities or physical gifts, what you actually do with the ball is what matters.
     
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
  13. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    No, that team doesn't kick anybody's ass.
     
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  14. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The team coached by Arena kicks the ass of the team coached by Berhalter. For all the abuse that Bruce gets (some deservedly), he is, was and always will be a superior coach when compared to Gregg.
     
  15. ipass

    ipass Member

    Jan 2, 2015
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Prior to these two friendlies, I was adamantly in favor of "Equal Pay". Now, I am vehemently against it because compared to the USWNT, the men are fools run amok and in no way deserve more money than the women. In fact, they deserve less! The women actually have a "system" that works, and they execute it intelligently, with forethought. They know what they are going to do next with the ball. Name one player on the current men's team that can cross a ball in as accurately as Rapino. Name one player that can strike better than Morgan. And the women's backline? Organized, disciplined, smart. It's idiotic to compare the women's game to the men's. They are completely different. The women aren't as fast. athletic, etc. They are simply smarter, and it shows in they way they play and win games. And I don't want to hear that women's soccer in the U.S. is so superior to the rest of the world. That cliche´ died and was buried at France 2019.
     
  16. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Losanjealous
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was a pretty good performance. Like 5.5/10 overall. And compared to the vomit pile that was the Mexico loss, pretty good seems better by comparison that it usually would.

    There were bright spots. We started well, and I think were the better team in the first half. We should have had a goal if (1) Boyd had been able to direct the ball toward an open net; (2) the Uruguayan keeper hadn't made an insane save on Roldan's header; or (3) we'd gotten the penalty call we deserved right before halftime. Jordan Morris hustled throughout and deserved to be the goal scorer. And flukey as that goal was, it was the result of Lima being aggressive and dangerous, so as they say you make your own luck. Plus we deserved a goal on the night, I'd wager our xG was >1 (though don't know for sure--is there a site where you can find xG for any given game?).

    What worries me though is that after the first half, really the first 35min of the first half, Uruguay figured us out, adjusted, and was the better team for the rest of the game. This is a pattern and not a good one. Mexico figured us out after we had a fast start in the GC final and we didn't have a countermove even in the subsequent game. It's not enough to have an idea of how to play, you have to have a dynamic approach to the game that counters their counter-moves, otherwise we'll be an easy mark.

    Related, while we looked better passing out of the back--and at passing and buildup play generally--than Friday's putrescent orangutan dump, this seemed to be because Uruguay was not nearly as committed to an intense high press as Mexico was. I suspect that if this had been a game the Celestes were more inclined to take seriously they could have hit a higher gear and pressed us into chaos and terror like Mexico did. This is related to the point above; if we have a predictable style with no Plan B, then it's hard to see how we compete against any tactically competent team/coach.

    But hell, we didn't lose, we scored a goal (first time since the Jamaica GC semi--about 250 scoreless minutes in all), we looked competitive against an outstanding team that brought most of their A-team. That's not a bad outcome, and whatever it portends for the future it was at least not as painful to watch as we have been in earlier games. I guess that's what passes as enthusiasm for the 2019 edition of the USMNT.
     
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  17. yankthisyank'swank

    Oct 13, 2010
    Why USSF posted it instead of something else, I’m not sure. I’m guessing it was to show how much “fun” they’re having.

    I do think the point of that 2-touch game must be considered before one judges that group on their “touches”. I’m fairly certain the purpose is to, on the second touch, play a ball that’s difficult to receive. These guys are all good enough to stand around in a circle and simply knock a ball around with a 2-touch limitation – even ClownShoe Zardes.
     
  18. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I stand corrected. We did have a developmental program.

    The major limits (IMO) included but are not limited to the facts that it was not associated with a professional environment in the way all of the top develoopmental systems are worldwide and the fact that it served an extremely small portion of our talent pool. The current developmental system is still very limited in scope but I believe that it is difficult to argue that it doesn't represent a large expansion.. Another limitation to Bradenton was that itr represented only one set of ideas/philosophies etc, so that not only did we not have too many eggs, but they were all in one very limited basket.

    We never really matched the first class which kind of begs the question in my mind. Was the success of those initial players due primarily to Bradenton's influence or primarily because we had a "golden generation" that even Bradenton would have some success with. I suppose, like anything the answer is somewherre in the middle. \

    By the way, perhaps you know. Do you know the ages of the first class? I belive Donovan was 17 or 18 and the others were likely approximately the same age. Donovan is listed as only staying in Bradenton for that one year. The sane is true for Beasely (per Wikipedia) Perhaps some of the others spent more time in residency? (mainly curious...it doeasn't change your point).
     
  19. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't have much personal knowledge of Bradenton but I remember a lot of players from JK's early years coming from that program including names like Altidore, Bradley, Adu, Kitchen, Shea, Rogers, and EJ. AJ spent a year there IIRC.

    A key success for Gulati and Klinsmann in '13 and '14, which flew under the radar, was hammering out the agreement with MLS to fully fund free academies in exchange for USSF getting out of the academy business while providing financial backing in terms of scholarship funding and corporate sponsorship support.
     
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  20. Lance90

    Lance90 Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    This.

    Others have made various points about the Fed, talent, coaching, etc. but the bottom line is that for a long time we self-limited our player pool. Arrogance deemed that we could identify the 20-30 top prospects in a country of 300M at age 16 and develop a core for the national team. The Donovan/Beasley class supposedly “proved” the theory but was nothing more than luck. An inadequate and political ODP system ensured that it would get worse, not better. Once a made man by the USYNT systems it was hard to get kicked out and even harder the older one got to break in—essentially be a first teamer in a top league in Europe (or be a middling talent with an American parent who grew up and played overseas their whole career).

    Think about it. From 2001-2011, USMNT talent was largely decided and funneled through Thomas Rongen (U-20 coach). There’s your “lost generation”! From 2011-present, it’s been “let me play my favorites” Tab Ramos. How do you reach the U20 quarterfinals? ... You take a team with Finals talent and lose in the final 8! Will Trapp is a product of the Ramos system. Would Will Trapp have ever been considered a USMNT player based on his pro/MLS career alone without being anointed by the YNT? Btw, it’s criminal what Ramos did to Araujo—taking him to Poland and not giving him a minute! Hello Mexico ...

    The DA/MLS Academy route is the correct way to go, it’s just been beset by awful execution by many cities and clubs. I started trackIng American U-23s getting MLS minutes this year. It’s too early to tell, but you can see which teams are making some systematic progress (Dallas, Philly, Galaxy?) as opposed to one-off successes while others are at least trying (RSL, Colorado, Seattle, DC, NYC? NYRB?) as opposed to the complete disasters (Fire, Houston). This is where having a plan and quality coaching/player identification matters.

    Yes, there will always be late bloomers and those who fall through the cracks, but we need a massive broadening of the pool of youth players in the system visible to the pro programs that can further their progress and to stop relying on the youth national teams. The numbers and geography of the U.S. is too unmanageable identify talent using a top-down approach. Quality players have to have an avenue to bubble up from below and be recognized. Coaches need to do a better job of recognizing it and not fall back on favorites or the same old names.
     
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  21. gnk

    gnk Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This article linked below does a good job of expounding on your point about being dynamic.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/09/11/armchair-analyst-what-usmnt-learned-mexico-uruguay
     
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  22. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would like to inject an opinion that while Bradenton didn't always have the best talent grooming players to play with each other for a long spell together is a different advantage that we no longer have. The early 90's teams had many players that didn't even have a team when they were older than Bradenton age but the national team kind of was their club team and the cohesiveness of playing together so much really helped against teams with loads more talent but little time playing together. Kind of like what the US is going through now. The US will improve a lot once the future core ripens enough to play together for a few years.
     
  23. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    I think Uruguay played to not get injuries.

    Id imagine the field conditions may have played a role.

    With that in mind, I would be careful drawing any conclusions based on this performance. Waiting to see how we look vs Canada.
     
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  24. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We will have to match the intensity that Canada will provide. they will be pumped for us while we may not look at them the same way (we should look at everyone the same way until we actually prove something). If we weather the first 20 minutes I think we will be ok. It does depend on who's playing though.
     
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