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Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Gregoire, Apr 6, 2011.
Thanks. That is clear.
No James. You said this below here:
Thats why I encouraged you to take a look at the articles provided by Vegan and to check the SAPotY awards up to 1981. I thought that that way you would get a picture of what happened since Maradona properly reached stardom level in 1979 at age 18.
What you did instead was a cumulative account of their ranking in the award since way before that (and, on top of that, extended the time period so it would include 1982 too). As if people in 1981 when assessing Zico vs Maradona would be influenced by the fact that in 1977 Zico was the best player of the continent while Maradona aged 16 was having his first full season...
In the other thread Once mentioned Ruud Krol.
During the 1982WC he and Zico had a conversation with each other.
Krol said afterwards that Zico thought it was a mistake to use Maradona as most advanced man in the line-up. Zico confirmed this and added that it "doesn't suit him, the spaces are too small for him up front to use some of his best abilities."
Maradona himself used to be bothered by this. Said Menotti insisted in using him as a 9, when that was obviously not his natural place nor where he could exploit his talent the most. I remember reading a post somewhere by Vegan saying one of the big mistakes Menotti made during the 1982 WC was giving Kempes the manija (meaning more or less steering wheel) of the team instead of Maradona. There are some people who say Menotti was jealous of Maradona in 1982. The fact that the superstar took all the spotlight bothered him because he thought himself as the grand mastermind of the 1978 WC win and wanted it to be more about him and not to be so largely overshadowed, they say.
Now that I said this I remembered Menotti being critizised for basically not getting the best of his players when coaching Barcelona.
Rating a player is nothing but an ACCUMULATIVE process . Yes I said from 77 upto 81 (or 82) Zico was regarded widely as the best payer. Maradona was also the best for 2 years 79-80 but over that whole period (accumulative) Zico was the best.
Now if we extend the years to 90 then of course Maradona (ACCUMULATIVE) would be higher (if not much higher) than Zico. But thats' beside my point.
Let's take example for Ronaldo vs Zidane (same era):
- up to 1999: Ronaldo was surely regarded as the best player (> Zidane)
- up to 2007: Zidane would probably get more points to be rated higher (for his consistency) than Ronaldo (or about the same)
Maradona and zico were the best free kick takers. Their styles were interestingly different, zico floated his free kicks and almost seemed to drop them into the net, while maradona put an immense amount of pace and curl on his. Watching through some highlights, I have to say maradona hit the bar/post a bizzarly high amount of times, even many of his successful free kicks went in off the post, some of them even rebounded to be scored by a teammate. Why did he hit the woodwork so many time? Very bad luck?
Maradona was also brilliant at assisting from free kicks. The pace and curl + accuracy was a menace for defenders. I don't think zico was as good in that aspect.
Interesting notice ... do you happen to have the number (hitting bar/post?) I kinda agree with your point there.
I always rate Maradona highly in freekick ability (TOP5) despite of his stats did not back up for that. Zico was great and he had the stats to back up though.
About your last question, my best guess is like yours ... bad luck combined with his daring shot in precision. I guess he tried to aim for the "dead spot" - as close to the bar as possible -
If he was widely considered the best player, then why was it never documented in newspapers/magazines? On the other hand, there's plenty of info that indicates it was with Maradona.
The Ronaldo vs Zidane example doesn't seem to apply here, because I never read or remember Zico receiving a clear edge over Maradona in the consensus of how the world viewed them. He did receive at some points (post 1979) first place votes over him, but never was regarded as the better player. We must remember that these votes were in regard to the best performer throughout a season, not necessarily the best player or most skilled in the game.
With the EPOTY award that was certainly the case in the past (and also other aspects had an influence, sometimes single matches). But do you think that was also true for South America?
Anyway, I searched for it and Brian Glanville never wrote that Zico was the best or one of the best. Until 1979 it was Cruijff and after that Maradona, Platini, Keegan and Rummenigge were mentioned. Also found one piece where he discusses various contenders for world best player and Zico doesn't feature.
Also funny: Zico didn't feature in his all-time 100 greatest players list
This photo also belongs to the 1980 El Grafico South American player of the year awards:
I think so.
Yes, Glanville never held him in high regard. But I believe he judged him on matches that Brazil played, but perhaps saw very little of him at club level. I don't know...
Anyway, found a nice interview with Zico in April of 1981 from El Grafico when he was in Buenos Aires. The inevitable question was asked: Zico or Maradona?
Will translate some of it.
Will translate what Zico says in regard to Maradona:
Maradona, the comparisons
Zico: "I say we are different." But suppose you had to make a list like El Grafico, who would you put? "I wouldn't put myself." So then? "Number 1: Maradona. Number 2: Socrates. Number 3: Reinaldo. Number 4: Passarella. Number 5: Junior."
It what are you both different? "He's younger and has more future. I, at his age, wasn't even playing. Possibly the difference between us is that he has more ability, an ability that I don't have which forces me to play more within the function of the team. Perhaps I shoot better on the run with both legs. At dead ball situations he hits the ball very well. I think I do too."
Is Maradona the best player in the world, as we Argentinians think so? "There are many good players in the world: Keegan, Maradona, Rummenigge..."
About the bold part: I have info that calculates he scored around 70-80 in his career in professional matches. I will break down what I know for now.
Will start with Boca Jrs.
14.10.81 Boca 3-1 Estudiantes (LP)
11.10.81 Boca 7-2 San Lorenzo (Mdp)
21.06.81 Boca 4-0 San Lorenzo
01.11.81 River Plate 2-2 Boca
08.09.81 Milan 1-2 Boca
1995 Apertura Boca 1-0 Argentinos Jrs.
1997 Newell's 0-2 Boca
That's 7 for Boca Juniors. I'm not sure if there was some others, but I confirmed those for sure at that club.
At Barcelona I confirmed 6 for sure.
Cup Winner Cup: 15.09.82 Barcelona 8-0Apollon Limasol
Article in Spanish: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/09/16/pagina-4/1079489/pdf.html
Note: I have this goal on video too.
And I will cite this page from Lucas: Thanks.
And this match:
28.08.83 Barcelona 3-2 Nantes
Source in Spanish: Mundo Deportivo
At Napoli I confirmed 30.
1984 Napoli - Castel del Piano Friendly
Napoli 3-2 Arezzo Friendly
6/8/88 Trento 0-5 Napoli 2 FK's
(Article in Italian)
And I will again cite Lucas for the Coppa Italia goals:
Serie A 84/85
Milan 2-1 Napoli
Udinese 2-2 Napoli
Torino 2-1 Napoli
Napoli 1-0 Juventus
Napoli 1-1 Udinese
Napoli 4-0 Empoli
Napoli 3-1 Torino
Napoli 4-0 Fiorentina
Napoli 2-1 Pisa
Napoli 1-0 Inter
Napoli 2-3 Milan
Napoli 8-2 Pescara
Napoli 3-1 Bologna
Napoli 4-1 Ascoli
Napoli 3-0 Cremonese
Napoli 3-1 Juventus
There may have been more in friendlies, but I couldn't find them yet.
At Sevilla he scored once: Celta de Vigo 1-2 Sevilla 22.11.92
At the Youth NT I confirmed so far 4:
03/11/78 Argentina 2-1 NY Cosmos
18/08/79 Argentina 2-1 Mexico
Youth WC Japan 1979
02/09/79 Argentina 5-1 Algeria
07/09/79 Argentina 3-1 Soviet Union
(These can be easily confirmed)
There may have been more but I can't find them in the moment.
For Argentinos Juniors it becomes more difficult, but I have most match reports (not all yet though and which I haven't reviewed yet) and this biography from Clarin in 2001 that states he scored 20 FK's in official matches.
Where it shows the number 59 it states 20 for that club, but this source has mistakes so I'm not sure if it is accurate. But if we give it the benefit of the doubt, so far it's: 7 for Boca; 6 for Barcelona, 30 for Napoli; 1 for Sevilla; 4 for the Youth NT and 20 for Argentinos Jrs. = 68 FK's
I still haven't finished the men's NT FK goals though.
Do you also have the info regarding the amount of penalty kicks? If you don't have it for all friendlies then only official games is also OK.
I should have most, but I would need to extensively check, which isn't easy because that info I didn't document as I did with the FK's. When I get the chance I will try to do that too.
'We' already know it for Spanish and Italian league games, for A-matches of Argentina NT and European club competitions.
But not for Argentinian league (I guess that must have been centrally documented?) or domestic cup games (Copa del Rey, Coppa Italia).
Okay, in the video below it shows 5 FK's for the men's NT but there's one error: the last free kick shown vs Israel is in reality in the Youth WC '79 vs Algeria.
The goal vs Israel in 1990 was a run rounding defenders inside the box and finishing in front of the GK:
I don't know why they put that FK instead in the YouTube video...
Anyway, he did score 5 FK goals or more uncluding unofficial matches. One of them was in 1979 vs League of Mendoza (I have the video of the goal).
The rest were:
1980 vs Poland
1985 vs Venezuela
1987 vs Ecuador
1988 vs Soviet Union
It could be. Anyway, it's 73 FK's so far if we give the book about the 20 for Argentinos the benefit of the doubt (I know its many though from skipping through reports).