By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
  1. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Country:
    Philippines

    P/R PR

    By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
    Rick Silva is back in soccer news. And it's not because anyone is paying attention to his team, weirdly enough.

    The guy can't get the Miami metro area to care more about his actual team than David Beckham's Chinese Democracy FC. So, naturally, he has four billion dollars to buy up the media rights for all pro soccer until the sun goes out. This is Paul Kennedy's response to some of the many problems with Silva's offer, I encourage you to read it. Once you have done so, you may consider the following additional topics:

    1. The World Cup bid. You know, the thing that by 2026 will probably be the biggest sporting event on the planet. It's possible that USSF and MLS might wanna tie themselves to that in some way, assuming USSF/FMF/CSA win the bid.

    2. This offer would be negotiated and take effect during the inaugural seasons of the next set of MLS expansion teams. Whither thine expansion fees?

    3. There's no way on God's neon green Sounders jersey that USSF would be able to impose this on MLS without a court order, probably a Supreme Court order. I'm not saying the legal fees for such an adventure would be four billion bucks all by itself...but I'm not NOT saying it.

    I have been, if I say so myself, eloquent on the topic of whether promotion and relegation in the US is a good idea. Spoiler: it ain't. Every argument in favor can and should be dismissed out of hand - well, unless you happen to own a second division team without the financial resources to join MLS, short of devaluing every existing and future MLS franchise through some catastrophic act of bureaucratic seppuku.

    This isn't Silva's first attempt to convince American soccer to apply the promotion/relegation suppository willingly. Last year he commissioned Deloitte UK's sports section to produce an infographic and an executive summary on the topic. This is part of what Deloitte gave Silva, and this is part of what Silva and Deloitte saw fit to release to the public.

    DelUK 8 to 1 seated fans.PNG

    A more pressing emergency would seem to be the fact that four out of nine fans don't have arms, legs, or torsos. And that nine out of nine fans don't have faces, but since nine out of nine fans are also floating in a featureless void, there's nothing to see or hear. But anyway - 8 out of 9 fans like pro/rel. Strange we're asking fans, and not owners, whose privates are actually the ones in the vice, but okay. 8:1 ratio. Got it. Anything else?

    DelUK 88 percent stadium.PNG

    When I read this, I asked myself what the difference was between thinking this would be "beneficial for club soccer in the USA" and "in favour [sic] of introducing it." I asked myself this, because I am an innumerate clod. Eight out of nine is eighty-eight percent. This was the same factoid, reworded and given a different picture.

    Apparently Deloitte's synonym budget for the third quarter of 2016 had sharp limits, though:

    DelUK 8 to 1 foam finger.PNG Yes, that is literally the same sentence with yet a third picture. If you ask me, the wrong finger is being extended.

    Oh, look, a source for these statistics. "Survey of 1,058 US soccer fans (September 2016)."

    So we don't have three useful numbers. We don't have two, or even one. Without knowing who these fans were, and how the poll was conducted, this information is worthless. Maybe these numbers are statistically valid, maybe they're not. We would have to wait until the full report was produced.

    We're still waiting.

    A college student who tried this amateurish padding would have it thrown back in their face by a disgusted teaching assistant. But a professional accounting firm produced it, and a media billionaire paid for it. Either they're really stupid, or they think somebody else is.

    There are two types of soccer fan in America: those that accept that promotion and relegation isn't going to happen, and those that are just going to have to learn to accept it. The only reason I'm wasting my dignity on his is (a) well, Soccer America felt they had to pay attention to it, too and (b) what else am I going to do, write about the Gold Cup final? That's WAY easier to do after the final game is played.

    Since Silva and Deloitte can recycle, so can I. Promotion and relegation is like changing the national anthem to "Anaconda" by Nicki Minaj. Maybe you think it's a great idea, or maybe you think it's not such a great idea. But it ain't gonna happen.
     
?

So what should the new national anthem be?

  1. The theme from "Bonanza"

    27.0%
  2. "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing" by Frank Zappa

    5.4%
  3. "1848 Now!" by the Mekons

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. "Stars and Stripes of Corruption" by Dead Kennedys

    2.7%
  5. "The Only Asshole Alone at the Dance" by the A-Bones

    2.7%
  6. I already said it won't - fine, "Anaconda" by Nicki Minaj and Sir Mix-a-Lot

    5.4%
  7. "Ron Klaus Wrecked His House" by Big Dipper

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. "Drive, He Said" by Doctor and the Medics

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. "Actress" by Syd Straw

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. "What It Is" by Too Much Joy

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. "Manny, Moe and Jack" by the Dickies

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. "Charley's Girl" by Lou Reed

    2.7%
  13. "Japanese Boy" by Aneka

    2.7%
  14. "Heart of a Rat" by Rocket from the Crypt

    5.4%
  15. "Happy Jack's Undrinkable Ale" by Poxy Boggards

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  16. "3 is a Magic Number" from Schoolhouse Rock

    24.3%
  17. "Beautiful World" by Devo

    18.9%
  18. "Storm Windows" by John Prine

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  19. "Nemesis" by Shriekback

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  20. "We Should Fight" by Ezra Furman and the Harpoons

    2.7%

Comments

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Dan Loney, Jul 26, 2017.

    1. RafaLarios

      RafaLarios Member+

      Oct 2, 2009
      Medellín
      Club:
      Atletico Nacional
      Country:
      Colombia

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      You would think that with 4 Billion he would be able to buy a MLS' franchise fee, build a stadium and sign Ronaldo / Messi for the inaugural game in the league.
       
      hipityhop and bigredfutbol repped this.
    2. GunnerJacket

      GunnerJacket Moderator
      Staff Member

      Sep 18, 2003
      Gainesville, GA
      Club:
      Arsenal FC

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      I feel completely stupid for having forgotten about the impact from the prospective North American World Cup '26!

      Even if Silva's bid didn't include access to USMNT matches the general hype in the build up to that event would be pretty substantial and soccer in the US could stand to benefit. Thus, so would Silva and Co. If they DID land the USMNT rights then either they would reap the whirlwind leading to that event or just scrape by because none of us have bought up to a package that includes beIn sport!

      You have to hand it to him, though, since this publicity stunt likely did exactly what he's wanted for his business and his Miami FC. Which, conveniently enough, plays in a US Open Cup match next week. What a coincidence!
       
      bigredfutbol repped this.
    3. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Except that nowhere is he offering to spend a dime of his own money.

      The money would ostensibly come out of the proceeds he makes by selling the rights on to actual broadcasters.

      There is nothing in this "offer" that involves him spending any money.
       
    4. dundee9

      dundee9 Member

      Jan 13, 2007

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Once again Dan Loney displays a shocking amount of confirmation bias.
       
      MM66, USRufnex and M repped this.
    5. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      In what way?

      What has he stated that is wrong?
       
    6. Mxwlldsn

      Mxwlldsn Member

      Sep 30, 2008
      Kansas City
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City
      Country:
      United States

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Why is "Don't Worry About the Government" by Talking Heads not an option?
       
      Dan Loney repped this.
    7. Dan Loney

      Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

      Mar 10, 2000
      Cincilluminati
      Club:
      Los Angeles Sol
      Country:
      Philippines

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      I have no good answer for this, not even to suggest "The Big Country" in its place.
       
      bigredfutbol repped this.
    8. Dr. Gamera

      Dr. Gamera Member+

      Oct 13, 2005
      Wheaton, Maryland

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Dan Loney repped this.
    9. dundee9

      dundee9 Member

      Jan 13, 2007

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      He doesn't like the results of a survey so he dismisses it. That is textbook confirmation bias.
       
      USRufnex repped this.
    10. Beau Dure

      Beau Dure Member+

      May 31, 2000
      Vienna, VA

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      That's the entire pro/rel argument that's been stated on BigSoccer and social media for 15 years, at least. "We don't like facts, so we're going to dismiss them."

      In this case, though, it's really more about the interpretation of those facts. In the abstract, sure, a lot of people would like pro/rel. But the follow-up question should be: "Would you be willing to risk the growth of soccer -- stadiums, academies -- for a league system you think is cool?"

      I do think, over time, that risk may be mitigated, and it might happen. So I disagree with Dan on two things: (A) I think pro/rel would be fun and (B) I think it *might* happen. But I always end up on Dan's side in these discussions because he's not inventing facts out of thin air.
       
    11. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      No he points out that the information necessary to understand the results its not forthcoming. And there really is only one result stated three different ways.

      But without any understanding of what the conditions of the survey were, it's hard to take seriously one way or another.

      Who are these fans? Is it a BigSoccer poll?

      Did they get an MLS team to include the survey in a team communication?

      Did they reach out to Section 8 (or other supporters group) and survey that membership?

      Did they tweet out a link to a survey using the #prorel4usa hashtag?

      Each of those four efforts to identify "soccer fans in the U.S." would likely lead to different results, but without understanding any possibly biases in who was surveyed, the results are lacking any meaningful context.

      And before you lump me is a "Andy must hate pro/rel" camp, I played in and occasionally helped administer a couple local multi-level leagues that use pro/rel (one with 7 levels last time I checked) and home/away double-round robin scheduling. (Apparently, I'm really good at schedule making)
       
    12. USRufnex

      USRufnex Member+

      Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
      United States
      Jul 15, 2000
      Tulsa, OK
      Club:
      --other--
      #13 USRufnex, Jul 26, 2017
      Last edited: Jul 26, 2017

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      I see the same clique of status quo zealots and condescending MLS apologists seem bound and determined to turn Bigsoccer into the MySpace of soccer social media with their consistent marginalizing of any who wish to see Pro/Rel in the USA and Canada someday.

      Do the supermods understand how ridiculously abusive Mr. Loney's bizarro anti-Pro/Rel spamming has been on twitter over the past few years?

      If they did, they'd at the very least relieve him of all his blogging priviledges at BS.
       
    13. dundee9

      dundee9 Member

      Jan 13, 2007

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Well, pro/rel would help the growth of soccer so I'm not sure I follow your argument there.

      I'd like to see pro/rel once we have a D2 that has a good following with attendance in the avg of 10k. More FC Cincy and Sacramento republics. Clubs with passionate fan bases throughout the league etc. That could be 5-10 years down the road.
       
    14. dundee9

      dundee9 Member

      Jan 13, 2007

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM

      Deloitte isn't some shoddy operation. They are one of the biggest accounting firms in the world. Their clients go to them for business strategy and risk assessment. They don't go to them so they can manufacture a bogus survey. They want the best information. If anyone thinks that Deloitte was bias or that they purposely created bogus results they belong down in Times Square selling pencils from a cup. That is conspiracy nonsense.

      Obviously MP and Silva thought highly enough of the data Deloitte provided to formulate a business plan around a 4billion media rights offer. Or are we to believe that MP and Silva is in on that conspiracy as well?
       
      USRufnex repped this.
    15. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      What? How?
       
      hipityhop repped this.
    16. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Never said they were. Just pointing out that numbers without context are meaningless.
       
      hipityhop repped this.
    17. USRufnex

      USRufnex Member+

      Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
      United States
      Jul 15, 2000
      Tulsa, OK
      Club:
      --other--

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      If you think nothing has changed in the past 15 years on BigSoccer (a forum I used to consider a bellweather) or other social media, then you're hopelessly out of touch with the majority of a new generation of soccer fans and potential owners in this country.
       
      The Franchise repped this.
    18. dundee9

      dundee9 Member

      Jan 13, 2007

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      They weren't meaningless to MP and Silva considering the 4billion offer.
       
    19. dundee9

      dundee9 Member

      Jan 13, 2007

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      More investment in lower divisions because ROI wouldn't be capped. This is economics 101.
       
      MM66 repped this.
    20. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      So how do you explain the 80 or so years prior to 1996?

      Nothing was stopping pro/rel from taking off like gangbusters.
       
      hipityhop, bigredfutbol, mosca and 3 others repped this.
    21. winster

      winster Member

      Jul 7, 2008
      Club:
      Besiktas JK
      Country:
      United States

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      I agree that the question Loney quotes is pretty useless in abstract. I suspect that the vast majority of US soccer fans really do prefer the idea of pro/rel when it is presented in abstract, but do they really care about it?..like really, really care? I doubt it.

      The truth is the lack of pro-rel isn't preventing soccer from growing in the US and it certainly isn't preventing MLS from stealing dedicated fans from the other sports. All MLS owners should care about right now is taking marketshare from MLB, the NFL and the NBA. Pro/rel has nothing to do with that. A lack of pro/rel isn't what has prevented MLS from passing Liga MX on the field and pro/rel won't be the reason MLS reaches parity with Europe's great leagues in 20-30 years.

      Pro/rel won't do squat for youth development. The dozens of unprofitable Omaha and El Paso FCs hoping to win the MLS promotion lottery aren't going to do a better job of developing young talent than the non-profit youth clubs that already exist in these cities. If anything, pro/rel could hurt youth development because struggling MLS teams will invest in immediate player signings in stead of their youth academies.

      Pro/rel won't create long-term fan interest. It may create short-term local fan interest when a team is on the verge of promotion. However, MLS will have truly arrived when kids in Alaska and North Dakota watch MLS and wear MLS jerseys the way the wear NBA and NFL jerseys. I think we all know their will never be a Sporting Anchorage getting promoted to MLS. So pro/rel won't get MLS to the place it needs to be in terms of fan interest.

      Personally I would like pro/rel and I think it would make American soccer marginally more interesting, but pro/rel is probably somewhere around #100 on my list of American soccer related concerns. MLS owners clearly have no compelling interest to support pro/rel and I don't think USSoccer has a compelling interest to support pro/rel either, at least not to/from MLS. Unfortunately for pro/rel supporters, I think MLS killed the possibility of MLS pro/rel when they bought into USL and shoved all their reserve teams into USL. MLS is never going to let their reserve league promote into MLS. Maybe pro/rel between the 2nd and 3rd divisions would be in everyone's interest, but that's about it.
       
    22. Q*bert Jones III

      Q*bert Jones III The People's Poet

      Feb 12, 2005
      Woodstock, NY
      Club:
      DC United

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Do you get in pointless arguments with religious zealots too?
       
    23. dundee9

      dundee9 Member

      Jan 13, 2007

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      So you're comparing the popularity of soccer prior to 96 to now?

      This isn't a serious question you're asking.
       
      tomásbernal repped this.
    24. RafaLarios

      RafaLarios Member+

      Oct 2, 2009
      Medellín
      Club:
      Atletico Nacional
      Country:
      Colombia

      P/R PR

      By Dan Loney on Jul 26, 2017 at 10:30 AM
      Having worked with Deloitte several times, I can safely say it doesn't help your argument.

      Those big consulting firms are something that I call "Management outsourcing". If a project goes right it Is because Management (and the Consulting guys get the credit too), otherwise Is solely the Consulting firm's fault. It's an elaborate CYA.

      Multimillon dollar catastrophes are a dime a dozen with projects managed by those big firms.
       

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