Official 2016/17 Champions League Thread

Before the final Juve had been down for a total of 35 minutes or so and that came in the group stage. Juve's approach almost all year has been to expend a lot of energy attacking and pressing for the first phase of the game in hopes of taking an advantage.

-Within five minutes, Juve had already taken three shots vs Real. Navas' save on Pjanic proved to be absolutely crucial. Taking the lead would have been a huge psychological boost.
-Instead, Real score completely against the run of play because Dybala and Alves turned the ball over in a horrible position. Juve were in attack when Real scored. Juve deservedly tied and took back some momentum. Yet, at half it was like Juve just gave Real their biggest punch and it was somehow tied at 1-1.

-To mirror Juve's first 25 minutes, Real were always going to have a dominant phase. Obviously this came in the 2nd. Juve couldn't get out of their own end since their build up was poor. Real changed their approach and played Kroos much higher essentially pinning back Pjanic. Juve suffered just as Real did in the first. The difference is that they made this period count. They hit Juve so hard that this team lost belief. It was as if they were in shock despite their being 25 minutes left.

 

The difference is that those nine players had been accustomed to winning this completion in particular. They are arguably the greatest modern era side only comparable to Pep's Barca. Ronaldo is an absolute match winner.

With a few more world class, technically excellent pieces, Juve have enough quality in this team to make another important CL run. Talent wise, this team showed in the first 45 minutes against an all-time Real Madrid side, that they could play on par with Real in a major final. This match was such a contrast compared to the 2015 final when it was clear that their was a gulf in technical quality. Vs Barca Juve were lucky to be alive after 45 minutes. In that second half, Juve somehow came back because they never lost belief and played at an incredible intensity.

2015 was a team punching above it's weight in Europe that had a tendency to comeback from major set backs.

2017 is very talented team that were excellent when ahead. They were frontrunners. Juve were barely tested all CL despite playing great teams because of how good they can be when at their best.

Like Real's core is accustomed to winning, I'm worried that Juve's core are now used to losing. So many players have changed, but Buffon, Chiellini, Bonucci, and Barzagli have been the common component in their two defeats. This group allowed 7 goals in two finals. I'm confident that Juve will acquire the pieces they need, but I'm not sure if Juve's core can recover again after yet another painful defeat to get to another final.

 

There isn't any shame in admitting this either. Unlike Real's core, Juve's main players started from a foundation of absolute mediocrity and darkness. This cycle started in Serie B to multiple 7th place finishes. Real have won 3 out of 4 CLs. That is amazing. Juve were a 2nd division side 10 years ago and went to two finals. That to me is equality insane.

Next season is likely Buffon and Barzagli's last. Chiellini and Marchisio are into their 30s and have been injury plagued. Bonucci is still in his prime, but who knows how he will recover after two poor finals on top of the lost 2012 Euro.

This isn't to suggest that the management shouldn't give these guys one last run at the only trophy they lack. Despite this, to me it's mission accomplished for this group. They have restored Juve to where they rightfully belong domestically and internationally. They are champions. It's up to the next cycle of players to win the Champions League on behalf of these giants.

 

Now that iv finally been able to really reflect on this final without being completely dead inside I dont think this loss had to do with a gap in quality but rather depth. Imo if we faced this Madrid side back in March this game could have ended up much different. It just looked like Mandzukic, Dybala, Higuain, and Cuadrado were all mentally and physically exhausted at the end of this season and who can blame them. Other than Pjaca who sadly tore his ACL there is no one in the team that can rotate with that front 4. This is due to the fact that this team was built for a 352 atleast based on how positions were reinforced. The move to a 4231 was a genius move by Allegri however without Mandzukic running his balls off it would have been completely unbalanced. Hopefully with reinforcements with depth this can be countered over the summer but we can discuss this in the summer transfer thread

 

What is this talk of they CANT bounce back??
This is Juve were talking about FFS. We dust it off and try again. 2 finals in 3 yrs is something teams like Bayern and Barca could barely do. There is definitely something special about this team. We readjust this summer and come back hungry next year kicking ass. Next year they would not have this same fear as these last 2 finals. We have to learn how to control games and not give up.

I dont get this attitude of going down and not being used to it. How do u step on a pitch and not expect that?? It happens in football and that is why there are 90min. Look at Barca, down 4-0 and they come back and beat PSG. They go down 3-0 against us and they still had belief they can come back and they were even pushing til the very last whistle of the game. We cant keep preaching this never give up attitude and do the complete opposite.

I rather have lost 2 finals like this than to have not even been there at all. People are becoming too demanding with the team.

 

At 2-1 and definitely at 3-1, Juve gave us psychologically. Some of the players said it and Allegri immediately pointed this out. Juve lost belief. We fans didn't. At the very least we expect Juve to fight until the end. They didn't do that. Shockingly they looked perplexed with nearly a half hour to go. Real dominated for 20 minutes, scored twice in 3 minutes, and Juve never recovered.

You point out how we have had many examples this year of comebacks and even Barca's attitude when down 3-0 vs Juve. Look at Bayern last year vs Juve as well. Down 2-0 after being dominated for 70 minutes, left for dead, and they fought until the dying minutes and were rewarded.

We as fans are demanding in the sense that we expect the players to uphold the values of the club. Win or give everything in an effort to do so. If fans are now losing belief in some of these core players (although still very beloved), it's because the players lost belief in the biggest match of their careers.

It was the most un-Juve like performance after down 2-1 I've seen in a while. At the time I wasn't even so disappointed that they were down 3-1 because there was time left. It was their reaction that saddened me as a fan. So you are right, we can't keep preaching this never give up attitude with 2nd half performances like that.

 

Perhaps I should have started the next sentence as a second paragraph. We did not quit after the first goal and fought back. Like I wrote, I do not know what happened in the second half as I have yet to watch it.

 

You didn't watch the whole match?

 

I know its still not a good excuse, but I was just pointing out Modric is a real key player for them. Anyway yeah we should have improved, but what we did was we filled other holes but not the holes that Pirlo, Pogba, and Vidal left. We need a world class midfielder, and then we should be fine.

 

I had to go to a wedding Saturday. While waiting for my mom at her place, I caught part of the first half, basically from Ronaldo goal to the Mandzukic goal. We left before halftime. I have the match recorded but do not have the heart to watch it yet.

 

Don't bother. First half will do. Meglio evitare....Che fiasco!

 

Good analysis
What Went Wrong For Juventus And Is Allegri To Blame?
https://www.esdfanalysis.com/match-...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

The whole thing is worth a read but here is the conclusion:

Conclusion

Real Madrid were better. There’s no way around it. Allegri’s side had a solid first half, not a great one, but a solid one. They managed to tie the game, transition back to defence well, and their low-block hadn’t been penetrated yet. In fact, their low-block never got beat other than Casemiro’s deflected goal, but they got beat on transitions (self-inflicted) with specific personnel offering poor execution in marking and passing.

The second-half was horrible.

Allegri should make adjustments next season, but their mental toughness needs to improve because their technical ability dropped when their confidence dipped, and against Real Madrid, in this form, you’ll never beat them if you can’t even threaten them in transitions. Allegri shouldn’t be blamed for Juve’s poor execution in many aspects of the second-half. The players lacked the mental toughness to finish off their promising start.

 

Allegri:
“We need to improve our management of games, our management of the ball. We need to improve our ability to decide when we accelerate and when we need to slow down.”

 

It's heartbreaking.

 

And thats the whole point of life, you live and you learn. Im sure they are stronger next year when they get faces with the same issues. One problem is needing a leader in midfield or offense. Buffon and defense are leaders but u need a star up the field to lead the charge. We need a Buffon type of leader in the mid or offense to take control of games and make those differences. This team has done enough to have the confidence in themselves to know they can do it. I keep mentioning the 2010 and 2012 Bayern team. Im sure they thought they couldnt come back after a loss at home. As a matter of fact, they HAVE to do this for themselves. Otherwise itll linger for the rest of their life. Its important for them (not us) to kill off their demons and face the fears

 

Between their 2nd CL loss to Chelsea and win against Dortmund, four different starters featured in the 2013 CL victory. They brought in Mandzukic, Alaba, Martinez, and Dante. Those are massive hits.

If they are to get back, Juve will need something similar. Higuaín will have to channel Robben and get over losing so many finals. Should Juve make it to the final next year, Khedira, Mandzukic, Chiellini, and Barzagli will all need to be replaced from this last CL starting line up. Chiellini and Barzagli will be a year older and the midfield needs more technical quality with players accustomed to these roles.

Even still, Bayern were favored in two of their three CLs facing a really poor Chelsea and Dortmund. Juve have played two juggernauts in a treble winning Barca and a CL double winning Real both featuring the best player in the world.

 

Real had a very bad second half of season then due to missing core players Modric,James and Khedira for a couple of weeks. Kroos and Isco didn't have rest and had to play every game helped with Illara. Carlo didn't trust Illaramendi for bigger games so he played Ramos and Pepe on them.
Still we played good football against you and if it weren't for the many missed chances in the return leg we would eliminate you. In 2015 Real were still the better team.

p.s. As a matter of fact we dominated heavily that Barcelona side in the first Clasico and in the second until Modric was on the field.

 

Common in that year Juventus were probably on par with Real Madrid. Yes you missed some great chances in the second leg, but you could say the same thing about us in the first leg. Llorente was dribbling around Casillas in the 75th min or something of the second half and almost scored but missed the target. Then just before the final whistle, Llorente missed a huge free header. Could have been 4-1 for us if we scored those two. In the second leg its true you missed a lot, but what about that chance by Marchisio that could have put the game out of sight? That was so close in the second half a little while after the equalizer.

And let me tell you 2015 UCL final, there were some huge controversial calls against us. After the equalizer that Morata scored, Alves completely tackled Pogba to the ground which should have been a clear penalty that was denied. Due to it not being given, it led to a counterattack and because the defense was not in their place Suarez scored the winner from a counterattack that should never have happened because the penalty should have been given. Third goal only happened because we were pushing hard in the end and left a lot of space in the back. The 2015 final was even a closer game than 2017 final honestly, and at least in 2017 you won fairly. But in 2015 there was still quite some controversy that gave Barca the win.

 

Lol you clearly didnt remember our 5 one on one chances we didnt put away. Especially end of 2nd leg Marchisio and Pogba shoulda scored

 

I understand the danger of a club not having the right mindset and losing confidence. That said, you don't just break up a squad because you believe they have become accustomed to losing. With regard to this side, any such talk is madness. We're talking about a side that has won six straight domestic titles and were one game removed from a Treble two of the last three years. We're still within the top 3-4 sides in the world. All we need is a signing or two. I get that everyone is still reeling, but c'mon.

 

To be honest I would say we are 2nd place in the world for sure. Third at the very minimum.

 

With Buffon, Alves, Chiellini, and Barzagli all a year older and close to the end of their careers, a midfield that showed it needs to improve it's technical quality, an attack that lacked depth all year (could use more quality), Juve need to change to remain in the top 4 clubs in the world.

Juve's depth issue can be solved by bringing in CL type signings and young players with huge potential. This will relegate key starts to the bench which should help in that regard.

The same can be said of Bayern, Barca, and Atleti. All have important players aging and showed clear deficiencies this year. Real are historic, but even their squad features players on the wrong side of 30. Within 3-4 years, the teams that have dominated (Real, Barca, Atleti, Juve, and Bayern) will all look very different.

 

You guys put too much emphasis on age. Being 30 means your prime really cuz you have experience and players play until late 30s so a good player will be good until about 35
Not saying go sign 30 yr olds but guys like Marchisio, Manzu, Bonucci, Higuain, Chiellini still have a lot left in the tank. We gotta transition in the younger guys next 3yrs

A lot of the issues this yr went down to the formation. It served us well to help us win and make a long run but we had no depth