Official 2009 Japanese NT Thread [R]

I watched the SBS6 broadcast and I can confirm the positive comments and the generally positive tone about Japanese football in general. It was even mentioned that foreign strikers in the J-League are somewhat stunting the growth of Japanese strikers. I don't follow the J-League extensively so you're all free to disagree.

There's a saying that the Dutch have 16 million coaches watching the game and even though I can generalize and say we're chauvinistic we're also our own worst critics. I'm half Dutch and half Japanese so I was annoyed by how passive the Dutch played and how the Japanese couldn't score. While I like how Sneijder plays when it all comes together, he really is a bossy douchebag when things fall apart.

And I don't really see how "we" (I feel like I'm constantly switching sides here) could learn all that much from this game. It's pretty much the same lesson as always. It was a friendly so the Dutch motivation can't be an exact conclusion as to where we stand either.

 

Uhh... There was a lot in there today. You have to understand the system Okada has in mind to fully appreciate that. I do, at least, though I don't necessarily agree that it's the best way forward.

I can't help but feel that some people may not be digesting all this quite yet because of the ugly last 20 min and the resultant 3 goals. The obvious frustrations are the same as always i.e. not being able to score, but what worked and needs extending is really the biggest benefit. If we had nicked a few goals from some missed shots (especially Hasebe's), then the game may have carried itself rather differently and you may have had a different impression. Yet, what we actually managed to do in the process would've been the same. In this case goal or no goal is just a distraction, or even an obstruction to our perception of How and Why.

The networking in defence and transition in the midfield was well worked. It wasn't so much a reliance on man to man marking other than the few basic obvious ones, but it was predominantly a shifting zonal pressing relative to all the teammates. Each player was running a short distance to make this happen because the networking was efficient and constantly shifting with flexibility to minimize the individual burden.

Honda's insertion messed that up as he didn't want to participate in the shift. So the distance covered got bigger and bigger until the "shift" started to lag in some areas so that some players couldn't catch up to fill a hole. It's much more tiring to chase a runner than to ambush him. Then the 70th minute came. Otherwise Naka-Endo-Hasebe-Kengo could pass forever. In fact I think they should have, because one of the faults today was the lack of change of tempo.

Japan looked like they were attacking enthusiastically by moving forward, but they did so as a continuation of the networking defence. In other words, it was on the back of the defensive network that the forward movement occurred naturally. For 45 min this was probably the smoothest networking and technical execution I've seen in a long time and there aren't many sides out there who can coordinate it that well. It was a well-oiled avalanche up and avalanche down as a whole team. The closest one I can think of is U21 Toulon tournament's Sorimachi Japan side from a couple of years ago, where they looked as though they were defending with more outfield players than 10, especially the game vs Scotland.

There are some issues which cropped up alongside all this. I look forward to the next game to read into Okada's approach in these matters. Okada's experiment will continue, whether we like it or not, and I think it's interesting enough because I can see it actually getting somewhere - I was just "hopeful" before, but now I'm slightly leaning towards "expectation". In this regard 4-0 wins in Kirin cup look nothing in comparison. As we had to live through Trussier and Zico philosophy, we're living through another one. We're stuck with it till the end of the next WC, so you might just as well get over it.

And pray, if you are a pessimist like me

 

The thing that really irks me about Okada, and sc-f addressed this as well, is that he goes into panic when we get behind. Subbing out ball-winners (Kengo in this case) for NFL Kickers (Koroki in this case) backfires. And it will continue to do so. And even more specifically against countries that are clinical when they counter-attack like the Dutch. You're just asking for the sword.

I think we all agree the midfielders are the true strength of the Japan NT. Especially when they play like they did today in the first half. And by the same token, the forwards are the weakest link and shallowest part of the team -- as again the 1st half today showed.

Knowing that, it's virtually impossible to justify taking out a player like Kengo for a dud like Koroki. Nothing against Koroki, but send him back to the "For the Future" C side until he can at least score against the Hong Kongs of the world. I would sooner have Okubo, Akamine, Yanagisawa, and any number of other off-form or out-of-favor forwards on the bench than Koroki. I could say the same for Tamada. We don't have a Marquinhos to suck all the defenders in.

If we want any success in the World Cup at all... he will need to abandon this strategy of just throwing "attacking" footballers on with no abandon.
We're not playing the likes of Bahrain (irritating as they are) anymore.

 

Basically, I see us agreeing on the main points. We all liked what we saw until everything fell apart, and we all are critical to where Okada's vision of a system may lead to. Of course everybody feels differently about the outcome... I was disappointed, as I said, not so much by the scoreline, I have a problem with how Okada reacts to certain 'new' situations within the match... and I feel this will not changed by any lesson.

In my view, he showed on the one hand some tactical naivety in making his side more attacking. A decision that is too predictable for the opponents and yesterday it undermined the own system as well the Dutch took maximum advantage of it. On the other hand, with making only one tactical sub with Koroki, he is showing some stubbornness I don't understand. The only rational reason I can imagine for Okada not making more subs (at a friendly where van Marwijk changed his goalkeeper...) would be that he is not trusting anybody else to understand his system, and even fresh players on the same positions would be more damaging for his system than letting the tired players stay on the pitch. Or Okada may didn't want player changes blurring the outcome? Negatively: Did he want Honda to be the scapegoat? Well, as I said, I don't understand it...

 

I think you are too hard on Koroki.He never got a fair chance by Okada
to prove himself and most of his appearances were as a sub.Of course
he didn't really have a good game yesterday but I still think that he is a
better striker than Okubo or Tamada.I mean they got so many chances
to play for the National Team and weren't able to score against low
level asian teams so how are they able to score against world class teams.
Okazaki Shinji is the only striker in Okadas team who scored regularly
against different teams and even he had so many problems against the
Holland defenders.Let's face it,we have a striker problem and Okada is not
the right man to solve it with his naive tactics.

 

For me, Koroki is nothing without Marquinhos. Okubo had just 1 short-lived period for the NT when he was good in front of goal, but he's not afraid to pull the trigger and can create his own chance from time to time. Two things I don't think Koroki, Tamada, Tanaka will ever offer us in the next 2 years. What Koroki does offer is a lot of work... but if we wanted that we could just play a 5th midfielder that actually has some class (or Okubo who puts in a shift as a forward as well).

The same reasons I'd prefer other off-form or out of favor strikers like Akamine, Yanagi, Maeda -- they pull the trigger when the opportunity drops to their feet. If our strikers can't even do that, there is no point for them to even show up to training. Yanagi may have took the worst shot in recent Japan NT history -- but at least he took the damn shot.

 

Erwin6174, you making your point is fine, but please be on topic. Otherwise it's a trolling

Exactly. Lack of goals clouds our judgement on what we managed to do.

Surely we didn't play the Dutch to confirm that we lack goals. We played them to test other aspects of our game, particularly the network of midfield and defensive tactics. This game had very little in the attacking third of the pitch. I think that side was not really emphasized beyond basics, because we already know we can't score goals, never mind scoring enough to beat the Dutch. With limited time, you work on 1 thing at a time.

If goal scoring side existed, some of you would have a completely different outlook of Saturday's game because there are some things which we now know works, albeit against off-the-form Dutch. A goal or two during the period of domination would've changed the whole spread of control for the full 90 minutes. That includes the distribution of stamina. We lacked control over 90 minutes because of the lack of goals. Just the lack of goals. Finer points exist, yes, but they're less significant in comparison.

Goal scoring is a problem you would face even if you were the manager. It's not if, but how that problem manifests, depending on what system you use. Even then, there is a limit to how much you can hide that fundamental problem we've had for a decade. So don't mix that up and confuse with what we're achieving. That game wasn't perfect as an experiment by any stretch of imagination, but getting rattled with emotions and overlooking what we now know to be doable is just stupid.

Naturally, the real question for me is whether we have enough time to complete this build up of solutions. We might, we might not. It's a fine line, especially when we take into consideration Honda, who failed to slot into the general system we've built. He's a problem in its own class. Again, don't mix that up.

We've got another game coming up. I'm looking forward to seeing Okada's next line of attack in this crazy endeavour. I really hope that Honda will change his ways. He can fit in, if he wanted to. He's done it before so he can do it again if he wanted to. If not, it will not work. His inclusion will be detrimental, tragic though it is. If he can play and win alone, fine, but that's not how football works.

 

Sorry to disagree with you, but that just isnt true. Yes, the contest would have been different if Japan scored, but unless Okada had a strategy to deal with the final 30 minutes of play, the Dutch would have had more determination to score, pressed a lot harder, and the match would have ended 5-1 or 5-2 instead of 3-0.

The problem is much more fundamental, and it lies in the fact that NO team in the WORLD can play that sort of high press for 90 minutes. The only team that can even come close would be North Korea, and even they lose matches to the likes of SKorea and Japan because they are exhausted in the final 10 minutes. Against a top European club it would end up looking just as bad.

Any experienced coach understands that the concept of a high press and aggressive attack is bold but risky. It can work, but only if you have a plan for what to do in the final 30 minutes of the contest. Okada had no plan (some might say he had no clue), and Japan was punished for it. Thats actually a good thing. Because hopefully it teaches Japan to start looking for their second-half strategy. If the lesson they take from this game is "well, if only we had scored then we would have been fine", then they really ARE doomed.

 

No need to apologize mate, sometimes people just disagree.

I wasn't implying that we could have controlled for 90 minutes for an all-out rout. What score depends on what your expectation is, but goals would've had a different ring to it. We could have lost 5-1 or 7-0. The real ratio may be bigger than 7:0. We could have Hiddink on our side, our chance of getting a result out of on-form Dutch going all out would still be too slim to even get upset about.

My emphasis on goals really come after the fact that I'm somewhat resigned to Okada's line of thinking, but to be fair it's not just Okada. We've had various different managers over the years, and in each case, it always converged on the same point of goal scoring. It's got so bad in my mind that I'm beginning to think there is no manager to remedy it. Goals change the texture of games and psyche of players. We will never get that so long as we never convert chances.

Another thing that sticks out for me is Honda, as much as I feel sorry for him. In networking the defence, we often had 3 players effectively killing off their 4 positions while another player came backtracking, a nice energy saving scheme through efficient transition by everybody. Uchida looked dead and I look to Okada to solve that, but elsewhere Honda wasn't in it at all and that created a hole, which the others tried to cover. The risk of high press is real and beyond Honda alone, so I take your point on Okada's general handling of it, but the effect of 1 player in that system was big enough that it fundamentally changed our side and eliminated our fighting chance even before considering other changes. Koroki wasn't much better, which surprised me a bit.

Still, for me we could've got something (relative strength considered) even with all the Okada problems we're cluttered with, but doing absolutely nothing with the control we had in the 1st half really killed it off and Honda's lack of effort was the nail in the coffin for the other players in the run up to the 70th minute. Yes, Okada could've helped, but that would only hide the fact that we just played pretty football for nothing in the first 45 minutes. I wonder how many times I said that before, watching Japan NT. It is a problem before even getting to deal with a manager's quality, let alone a high press. If I could wave a magic wand to change 1 thing in Japan's football, it is to become a nation with goal scorers to convert the chances we make. I'll worry about the manager or system after that.

 

I get the impression that people like to use the "no goals" excuse because it is so simple, and doesnt require a lot of thought or understanding. The problem is that the numbers just dont back that up. Compare the number of goals Japan scores over an extended period of games and it doesnt compare poorly to other countries in Asia. While its true that Japanese strikers have a tendency to pass too much when they ought to be shooting, Japan scored twice against Germany before the last WC, scored against Brazil at the WC (make that "scored FIRST against Brazil") and scored the last time they played each of the following teams: France, England, Italy, Argentina, Columbia, Paraguay, Belgium, Ukraine, Czech, . . . . well the list goes on.

Football is not a high-scoring sport, and playing a high percentage of your matches against teams that play eleven behind the ball doesnt help boost the statistics much. The key is to look at how many chances you are making, and how many chances you are giving the opponent. While it certainly wouldnt HURT to have a guy who scores an average of one goal every 180 minutes, if that was all Japan needed to solve all of its problems then it would mean Japan was more competitive when Kazu was in the team.
And that simply isnt the case.

Okazaki is shaping up to be quite a good scorer. Sato's NT numbers suggest the same COULD be true for him, and even Maeda has average numbers that wouldnt look too out of place on a mid-tier European NT. . . . but apparently Okada would prefer Tamada. As for the consistent gripes about Koroki, I think people ought to at least wait until he has had a chance to play 90 minutes before pronouncing judgement (and no, I dont mean a full 90 minute game . . . what I mean is that Koroki currently has just 5 NT appearances, all as a late sub, for a TOTAL playing time of 83 minutes). You cant expect someone to score until they have a decent run-out, and certainly not if you play them in a position and at a time that doesnt suit their abilities. Koroki is a starting forward, not a guy you can bring off the bench to create "quick goals". I think he could make a real impact if he started alongside Okazaki, but so long as the late sub is the only role Okada will let him play, then indeed, he shouldnt be on the team.

Wailing about "lack of goals" every time you dont win is a sure fire way to ensure that the real problems never get addressed. Its simply too facile an excuse, and doesnt really explain anything.

Japan played a very impressive 60 minutes against Holland, and I am confident that they could do the same against most top teams. The real problem lies in the fact that Okada doesnt have a strategy for the final third of the match. Maybe he just hasnt had a chance to use it, or more likely, he still doesnt realise that his current strategy wont work for the full 90 minutes. Either way, NO amount of goal scoring is going to change the fact that the bandwagon is missing a wheel (or two). Without a logical plan to carry the team through the final 30 minutes, Japan isnt going to win games at the WC level, no matter how many goals they score.

 

Judging on their performance in the first half, some of our players might have been underestimating Japan (Sneijder notably) but my point is that they got badly slagged off for it in the Dutch media, as well as by their own coach, Bert van Marwijk. I never said the Dutch were trying to flatter the Japanese. Just that the Dutch media had absolutely nothing bad to say about them, contrary to what goru_no_ura implied. As for our footballers, their IQ is generally around 60 so I'd be surprised if they even knew a Japanese player (apart from Honda). Call that arrogant but I'm afraid most football players are very self-obsessed, probably including the Japanese.

What comments did you pick up exactly then?

 

The irony is that it's precisely because they played an impressive sixty minutes that they imploded in the last half hour. No team in the world can play at full speed for a full game. They need to dose their energy better over the 90 minutes. Overall I think you have a pretty good team though.

 

Holland would've tired just like Japan to some point just not as much.

The obvious thing there was fitness and that's something you can fix relatively easily at a pre-WC camp. Hiddink's teams always were reknown for outrunning opposition. Russia infact beat Holland at Euro 08 cause of this in extra time scoring twice and were known as the team which ran the most by a long way.

With fitness comes good decision making cause players are less inclined to consider the easy option (not running, passing too early).

Personally I don't think Okada has the ideas to figure out another strategy for the last 30 min, or is willing to let his team run hard for 65 then play for the draw, so I reckon he'd just try to increase fitness which I think is better anyway. Cause obviously we can see Japan have the capacity to tackle Holland in Holland when they're switched on.

Honda needs to be taken down a notch by someone whether that's Tulio, Nakazawa, Okada or Nakamura. He's nothing more than bench for Japan and he needs to realise this. Apparently he chucked a hissy fit with nakamura cause Naka didn't let him take the FK that almost scored.

 

Well . . . that's another person who agrees with me. Any more?

 

It's not to condemn everything of Okada's style... One could see there was a significant improvement when you see how we played against OZ. The pressing worked well, also switching from ball-winning to attack was fluent. The question what would have been (or what tactic would have applied) if we had a gone in front is probably out of place (as it didn't happen).

Excluding the Honda-issue for now, and also completely ignoring the mindset of the Dutch for this match, if we take just our display of the first half, I saw some nice midfield action by the JNT, but I rarely had the impression that we posed real danger, and a lot of plays were finished by a shot off the goal-frame. As for now, the doubtlessly flowing display seems to stop at the defense line of our opponents, and by the time our players arrive there the inspiration/concentration seems to be lacking. To put it in line with recent matches, I don't see a real improvement concerning the final pass, which should be a strength of our side considering our midfielders - either it be thru-balls or crosses, with the last goal scored from out of play being the Okazaki-goal against Uzbekistan, if I remember right, courtesy of a nice pass by Kengo. My point here is, as much as I enjoyed the network-pressing and switching quickly to attack or seeing our SBs moving into spaces and creating a 1-player-more-situation in midfield, I still see a problem regarding breaking the defense line, either that the reason be that the previous play (pressing/switching) is too absorbing or simply the forwards having to drop back too much as they are simply not positioned as forwards (which is due again to the system). So are we looking here at something that can be solved within the next 9 months?

Another thing, there has been a lot of talk in the media about Okada wanting to impose the system which functioned well in the first 45 minutes for the full 90 minutes. If that is to be true I am doubting Okada's capability of seeing reality, as like someone else said probably no side in the contemporary football world manage to play like that throughout. If to take some lesson from this, it is that the JNT can play this kind of system but has to see it as one layer of its play, and not the overall philosophy to be sticked to by all means. So where do we go from here? If I was optimist, I would say we are going to work on the other layers as well... but then again, Okada's substitutions and tactics after a new match situation is created is keeping me from being an optimist.

 

I think so.
I was fine with the way we played those 60m (even knowing they would be exhausted at the end) -- and you could see the team was starting to lose steam as early as 40m at least.
But even if you rate Koroki (and clearly I don't, and not just because of NT performances) ... I can't fathom how he would ever be a good substitute in this strategy... especially for a player like Kengo who not only gets us the ball in midfield but helps us maintain posession. Posession is crucial when the team is getting exhausted in this strategy. He did a very similar thing against Uruguay -- panicking and taking Kengo off for Yamase.
It's also extremely frustrating looking at the bench we had. There wasn't a single midfielder or forward on the bench that I thought could change the game (except maybe Abe if we just want to kill the game off). We have better players than this, why aren't they involved?

Honda may have been better to start with when we were playing full steam. He gives us a far better goal threat when we're attacking than, say, Tamada. Tamada could have been a sub for Honda as he's definitely more of a team player and could have helped on defense when we really needed it. Or just not play Honda when we play this kind of strategy.

Lastly, Uchida. I felt like while Robben was on the pitch, Uchida didn't venture forth very often and was most likely given strict orders to concentrate on Robben. Once Robben went off he went forward a lot more and got exposed being out of position. Elia got behind him many times and that seemed to be our biggest weakness on defense. So I'm not sure our biggest hole in defense was even caused by exhaustion.

 

Interesting point. Robben got some critique but this would explain to me why he didn't do so well. He was dedicated manmarked. Then, if Uchida was manmarking Robben, he was doing a hell of a job. Robben was subbed half time. Uchida should not get all those extra tasks in being offensive as well. I know it is modern football to do so, but there is nothing modern in letting Elia be man of the match.

The switch was exactly after the first goal. So maybe it was mentaly and by that they stopped giving 100% so it looked like the reason was tireness. Like, "oh well they scored so the pressing is no longer nr.1". I remember Jaap Stam (dutch commentator) stating something like that. It's important because then the solution becomes different for Japan.

Somebody brought up Guus Hiddink's team Russia and how much gass they always have. Yes they have that unrelentlessness in them but whats at least if not more important, they never stop being that way. In that same Euro tournement Russia also lost 4-1 against Spain (and later again 4-0). Hell they even lost to us one year before that with 4-1 or 4-0, don't remember exactly. My point is that if they get beaten in the game and are outsmarted in the game they don't care. They keep on going. If you have seen Russia against Argentina more recently you have seen that same thing. They don't give a shit. That is so funny about all those teams of his.

Could it be an mental collapse by the Japanese. One goal down and stop giving the 100% which gave the Dutch space and thereby more goals? It's an important fact to know beacuse in that case you stop selecting the guys with the fewest mistakes in a game but you start select the guy's who put most energy into the game and that don't hang their heads after some setbacks. Or you emphesise on it with video feedback and start changing players attitude after setbacks. Or you wait until after the WC and give Hiddink a 7m Euro (no Dollars!) paycheck and let him do the job.

Anyway Uschida should not have changed stategy against Elia (who at the moment is becoming very big in germany and is as dangerous maybe as Robben) and Japan maybe should not be so upset after a setback goal.

 

I dont want to turn this into a discussion of Koroki since there are a lot more important issues. However I do have to come to his defense if you insist on bashing him (though really, the comments are half in agreement with you).

Koroki is a 90-minute player, whose value doesnt really start to show up until halftime. I think the people who can appreciate this best are defenders, especially ones who have played against that type of player. It isnt just that he runs hard -- heck, Tamada does that! What Koroki does is run hard STRAIGHT AT YOU, at a constantly changing pace. Left right slow fast left fast right slow BANG (the sound of him whacking you with a shin or a shoulder) then fast again . . . . and by the end of 40 minutes you are not only exhausted, but also sore, dizzy, nauseous and your reflexes are shot. This is speaking from personal experience in university of playing every day in practice against a guy who had a very similar style to Koroki. A guy like that just grinds you down. And THEN he starts to make an impact in terms of scoring. Look at his stats and youll see that a majority of his goals come in the second half. You said earlier that Koroki was nothing without Marquinhos. But Marqui has been in the league for ten years now, and the statistics show that he has become much more effective since being paired with Koroki, than before. The reason being that Koroki wears out the defenders so thoroughly that they cant keep up with Marquinhos.

However, if you bring Koroki on for the final 20 minutes, all you get is 20 minutes of hard running and collisions. There isnt any time for him to have an impact. If thats the only role Okada sees for him, then I agree, he isnt worth the space on the bench. But this is the problem we get over and over with Okada, so it isnt just one player. From top to bottom, the team is not being used to its most effective potential.

Returning to the issue at hand, though, the problem that was exposed in the Holland match is that: while Japan can hold their own with the best in the world for 60 minutes, they need to either find ways to either rest in 5-minute intervals, or else play all-out for 60 minutes and then bring on a third central back and an attack-dog midfielder, and play a 5-3-1-1 for the last 20 or 30 minutes. A strategy like that COULD have claimed a 0-0 or 1-1 draw in that Holland match. Which in my view would have to be viewed as success.

But if they try to play a high-press double-team strategy for the whole match theyre going to hold opponents scoreless over the first hour of every single contest . . . . and then set a WC record for most goals conceded in the final 20 minutes.

 

Finishing top 4 seems impossible but of course I hope I'm wrong. I want to see Morimoto and a couple if new changes before i doom the team But Japan showed that they can play at the same level as Holland 75 % of the game. The it is all downhill.

I want to see a win against Togo on wednesday, any team news?

 

I think to manage expectations fair an balanced there is one note to add. Observers of the game have stated that there was from the dutch side not a single action without the ball. That is unforgivelble on international level and only points out at laziness.

Also, Honda plays at 10 position at VVV. I don't know if Japan playes 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 most of the time, but in case of 4-4-2 he can be second striker behind the first. He would play a more natural position to him, Japan scores more, as Honda can score great goals and the midfield stays intact which is japans strong side.

 

Isn't Okadas system a 4-2-3-1?

 

Observers? Hmmm . . . Dutch observers no doubt. It sounds pretty much word for word exactly like what Czech said after they lost 0-1 in Prague . . . . and what England said when they drew 1-1 in Manchester . . . . and what France said when they drew 2-2 in Metz . . . . and what Italy said when they drew 1-1 . . . and . . . . hmmm....

Excuses are pretty lame under the circumstances. If Holland "wasnt working hard", then what the #$&%# was Sneider doing on the play where he should have been sent off?

As even Bert vMarwijk could admit, Holland just wasnt prepared to deal with such a hard press, nor for the technical skill Japan showed in the first half. They got taken by surprise, and they panicked. Its as simple as that. Trying to blame it on a lack of effort is silly.

On the other hand, Holland also showed that they were enough of a class team to recover, re-focus their minds and win the match. Making excuses about "no movement off the ball" and so on just cheapens what SHOULD be viewed a very impressive display of professionalism by the Dutch after they got caught unprepared for the quality of their opponent.