NSR Netherlands: Current events (in the world).

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Nov 14, 2015.

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  1. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Alright, since people kept discussing the terrorist attacks in Paris in a soccer thread, I thought it might be a good idea to channel them in this new thread. Cheers.
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    There was huge coverage in the Netherlands on the massacre of Nigerian students in a university some months ago. I agree with Suren01. This is not so much a reflection of who is worth what, more about relating. France is the country where many go on vacation or travel through. They are a European country, part of the EU and their problems are somewhat the same as we have here in the Netherlands, though of course also a bit different. Though French is not a popular language and I am not sure how it is now, many grew up to learn it in high school. It is just a country that is closer to us.
     
  3. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Many muslim french groups on fb suggested that they ll go to demonstrate against their extremists in the streets IF french people go to demonstrate with them against Francois Hollande actions in the middle east .
     
  4. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Drb : I wasn t specifically talking about dutch people but about the whole world. The medias coverage and the french flags everywhere in the world, would never happen for an african or middle eastern country.
     
  5. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    What are the exact actions of Hollande in the Middle East?
     
  6. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I agree, but we are getting there. I think this will be next. Like, he, why do we not support Nigeria if we support France? I mean many years ago we would not even know something happened in Nigeria. We already had a huge coverage of an event in Nigeria. How much consideration and solidarity is there from Nigeria for the Dutch or other European countries? I bet we never get in the news there. This is not a sign of inequality so much, but of a global village that is not there yet. You raising this issue is actually helping that process.

    For example Obama would have said in the past "an attack on the west", now he says on humanity. More world community like language. It is a process (wait did I just sound like van Gaal :D).
     
  7. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    France just bombed an oil center in Syria few days ago and that s why the french authorities were expecting an attack soon. It s not as if ISIS didnt warn that they ll attack, they did many times since september . Still Hollande prefered to risk his people lifes, sitting in the stade de France watching a football game.
     
  8. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    But do those Muslim groups on FB not want France to take action against ISIS? They are committing genocide against for example the Yazidis. They are throwing gays of buildings. They are giving Islam the worst possible name, as they all claim to do it in name of the religion. French Muslims should be first to want to take out ISIS or at least weakening them. Am I missing something?
     
  9. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Most of french muslims and most of french non muslims dont want any intervention in the middle east. Michel Onfray who is one of the most popular french philosophe now and who is totally against religions in general, anti christian, anti islam...said himself that France should stop any kind of interventions in the world. Marine Le pen said it as well.

    Of course in an ideal world it s nice to go to fight the injustices in the world, but you should do that if you are sure to win. It s a war. Francois Hollande just said " we are in a war" . Without the consentement of french people. He put his people in a war but he isn t able to protect them. Closing the borders wont change that much, there are already many potential terrorists in France , and they can strike whenever they want . If they ll want to kill more people during euro 2016, they ll do it. Not in stadiums but in bars again, clubs, any kind of public places...or they can even attack french schools in foreign countries. North africa for example.

    As long as french people can t be sure to be protected by their politics they have no interest to support a war in another continent and Hollande is acting against their wish, he is the first reponsible .
     
  10. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #10 DRB300, Nov 14, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
    Well pro or contra interventionist opinions are perfectly fine. As long as evil is named just that. The Muslims on FB that you mention would agree that ISIS and their genocide are an evil group that ideally would be wiped out, or by going into a discussion with the doubters in their organisation would slowly bleed out? I actually would love to create an army of street epistomologists and go into a debate with these people, trying to win the battle of ideas. Their logic is flawed as hell. Easy picking. People who turn around (truly turn around) can be great gems in your society. I mean look at Maajid Navaz (though he is still a Muslim). He understands what he is talking about and knows what has to be done. I am not sure it will be doable what he wants (I am very skeptical), but we have to try.

    The only problem I have with non interventionists is if they would have liked to live under Nazi rule to this day. What if Canada, the USA and others would not have come in and joined the war? Maybe the Russions would have won on their own, but then everything here would have been communists and maybe even to this day as well. What do people say to a crying Yazidi kid and a girl being raped until she bleeds and who lost her parents? No maybe we can not beat ISIS, but we can hurt them. They can hurt us back, but is that reason enough to say no when people ask help? Should USA and Canada stayed away then also since they lost so many lifes? Just some things I am wondering about.
     
  11. curbo

    curbo Member

    Apr 14, 2012
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The USA did stay out of the war, untill they were declared war upon. Not that they werent involved beforehand ofcourse though, supplying the british and russians too was of immense importance.

    Islam, christianity.. There is virtually no difference. The culture of religious followers have nothing to do with the books or what is in them. The reason christianity has somewhat a good name is because nobody believes the bible to be true anymore in europe.

    I dont have a problem with Islam(or atleast, no more issues than i have with any other religion). It sucks that so many people believe the Koran to be true, while unconsciously cherrypicking verses they like and ignoring everything which is wrong.

    What I do have a major problem with, is the untouchable status Islam has been getting in the Western world if i can be bold enough to speak for more countries than just my own. We make fun of every religion, we make fun of everything but Islam. If we cant talk about Islam honestly, if we care more about not upsetting people than we do about speaking the truth, speaking our minds, then we will never progress in changing the culture in which Islam is so dominant.

    Our moral value system, tolerance, freedom of speech, equality and general humanism are not shared by everybody, especially not in the pious regions of the middle east. Especially in times like these, when there is such a big shift in cultural makeup in western europe, we must stay honest and speak our minds. If we continue putting Islam in an untouchable position then we wont assimilate the people who came here. All we would do is allow the rift in cultures and people to grow and grow.

    Isis though, the problem is that they are clearly very very capable, they are modern and they are in everybodys face. Politics is what created them, politics is what created the fun groups before them. And what I mean with politics isnt just Iraq/Afghanistan, but also very much being such great pals with one of the most horrible nations and instigater of moslim terrorism since the 70's, Saoedi Arabië.
     
  12. curbo

    curbo Member

    Apr 14, 2012
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    And for Isis, we cant prevent everything. If they really want to blow something up, then there is little we can do. We can only go after their leadership, take them out. Like we did to their predecessors. But maybe this time we can learn from our past mistakes and stop giving these groups so much ammunition(ha) to demonise us. im not convinced though that the lesser of 2 evils is to just have them kill and oppress eachother without anyone intervening. Its the ''how'' to intervene which needs alot of working on imo.
     
  13. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    There are many countries in the middle east that can fight against ISIS before the european countries do. Israel for example ? It s a middle eastern conflict and let it to be so for the moment.

    You know I dont really believe in the myth of westerners going to the middle east to save yazidis and people there. Why wouldn t they start with central and south america ? I just watched a documentary about teenage virgin girls being stolen to their families by gangs and sold as prostitutes in Colombia. The criminality in south america is a wayyyy worse than in the middle east, we talked about it many times , and it can be solved in a couple of weeks if the american and european soldiers go there.

    The middle east interventions have always been geopolitical and economical. It s a part of the world that both westeners and russians wanna control.

    Now just like the european people haven t been asked wheter they want to live in multicultural societies or not, they re not asked about the interventions in other countries. Even though it puts their own security in danger. Same equation for the muslims.

    There s no way european countries can prevent terrorist attacks in europe. I worked at the airport Paris Charles De Gaulle and I can tell you most of the people working in the security controls, cleaners etc are muslims. They even have prayer rooms in the airport. I believe it s the same in many other airports in England, Germany etc.
    Late in the night or early in the morning there are like 1 or 2 people working in a security control at the
    Same time. If some extremist muslims corrupt a muslim working there, they can enter the boarding zones and planes with bombs and weapons in their handbags without any problem. Actually I was in holidays in Istanbul last year and they have a security control before you even enter the airport. And another before to board. They have a better security than europe.

    Also consider Schengen. Hollande closed the borders. Cool. If a muslim swedish wanna blow something in France he just needs an ID card and a plane ticket. There s no way to stop terrorist attacks in europe, and as long as the situation is like that it s crazy to make wars in the middle east.
     
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  14. curbo

    curbo Member

    Apr 14, 2012
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    They can, but they wont. Israel not counting, the surrounding arab nations have a combined army of something like 5 million to Isis's 20-25k. So yeah.
     
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  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'll weigh in with some references on this topic. First the funny one; American comedian Steve Martin wrote a hilarious take on the 72 virgins that are promised to those who commit the atrocious acts (left unsaid is what do the girls/women who do the same thing get?? I've never seen this answered):

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/01/29/seventy-two-virgins

    Two good books on the failures of modern Islam to adapt:

    Bernard Lewis: "What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response"
    Timur Kuran: "The Long Divergence; How Islamic Law Held Back the Middle East"

    Best book on the geo-political evolution of the Middle East following WW1

    David Fromkin: "A Peace to End All Peace; The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East "

    Best book on the follies of war:

    C.V. Wedgwood: "The Thirty Years War"

    Other posters have remarked on the problems outside the middle East and they are correct. Child trafficking knows no boundaries. Tribal (and I use the term broadly) enmity leads to genocidal actions on various scale (Burundi is getting ready to implode yet again). Although Francis Fukuyama wrote about the End of History back in 1989 it's clear that events since then make this claim false. As long as there is tribalism, evil doers will exist claiming their actions are sanctioned by some higher power.
     
  16. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    I'm sick and tired of these muslim extremists, and I'm even more sick and tired of Liberals who keep making apologies for them
     
  17. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'm glad to see that you are as xenophobic as ever. Have you even read anything outside your limited sphere? Maybe you find books with more than five sentences or words with more then seven letters too difficult. You have no idea about my political ideology or background, if you did you might find what I and others are writing of some interest and worth pursuing in an effort to understand a complex world. Of course that would require an intellectual investment that you appear to be incapable of.

    I tried to be constructive on this thread but that appears in vain. As long as know nothings participate in this forum I will be absent. I gave it my best shot but that was not good enough.

    So long until Billiant Dutch leaves the room.
     
  18. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    LMAO.... I wasnt even referring to you O14, it was just a statement in general. If I meant you I wouldve quoted all that drivel you wrote.

    And for you leaving the thread, thats typical for a Liberal who cant handle a good debate. You stomp your little feet, get mad and you whimp out
     
  19. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #19 DRB300, Nov 15, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
    Jews solving Muslim issues? How would that work out? The powerful Islamic media are able to spin stabbings by Palestinians of Jews as if they are the victims when they are shot in reaction to that. They are able to spin self defense as aggression. They have no journalistic integrity and often only are interested in feeding the rage machine. It is despicable and just imagine how they will spin any story where Jews kill any Muslims somewhere else. A small country like Israel can not do this. It would be a public relations catastrophe and they already have so much spin against them. Besides, as I said, this is a Muslim problem. The Yazidis have nothing to do with any foreign policy decision by the west and neither do many of their other victims have. It is genocide and that can be traced back to the tenets of Islam:

    * https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2015/04/01/isis-is-islam/

    ISIS does not come falling from the sky. Saudi Arabia is a kind of ISIS, but more well organised and structured. Less rough around the edges. They are badsh*t insane though. Atheists like me are considered terrorists over there. You as a Muslim (or not Muslim anymore) by law are exactly equal to anybody else here. I am not equal to you or your family in SA and you might say this is not the case as on vacation I will have a good life there, I am not interested in that as I identify with Saudi atheists. That is me. They are me. How they treat them is how they treat me. Me being treated differently as I am white is their racism. If Muslims do not speak out against how atheists are treated in Saudi Arabia, then I know enough how they see me and how they will treat me when they will have power. In 13 countries there is a death penalty for atheists. All are Muslim countries. That is state legalized terror and is not much different from ISIS. So ISIS is just one manifestation of a much broader phenomena that has its roots in Islam. Killing other people through terror is having the lowest regard for the life of the other. A few degrees below is discriminating others by laws. Then a few degrees below that is treatment by individuals of others in everyday society. If we look at terror and if we look at discrimination by laws, the Muslim world is in a different universe from the Free West. It is oranges and apples. You might say, have you been there on vacation, then I will say I do not care again. I identify with my atheists there. With minorities. With people who are outspoken like me at times and I look at how Muslims treat them in their countries. If they hurt those kind of people I identify with in their countries, they hurt me.

    As discrimination in the Muslim world is rampant and the standard, the extremist are closer to becoming monsters. If your masses are oke with rampant discrimination of their minorities, then the gap to bridge to head over and commit a genocide is not that big. Remember, dehumanization is one of the key steps towards genocide. There are 10 steps, but this is the big one. Almost all 10 steps are present in the Muslim world. That is why something like ISIS is possible. There is a huge feeding ground as discrimination is not even seen as such. If you set the rules in a country so that there are 2 sets of people, one inferior and the other superior, then you have created the feeding ground for genocide and that also happened with the Yazidis. It creates a mindset that readies the ground to do terrible things. That is why this is a Muslim problem. They need to deal with all their discriminating thoughts and behaviors to non Muslims in their countries. I mean I just read this article about Pakistan and have to shake my head:

    * Link

    Of course the West wants to control that area, as we have to keep the steady stream of oil coming (but pay for every liter of oil), but Pakistan barely has any oil and the contracts of Iraq went to the Europeans, Chinese and such. The US spend also way too much to ever get back through oil. Their excursion towards Iraq was financially stupid and keep in mind that the Germans and French were against that war. They were called "Old Europe" as a result of that, but in the end I think most Americans would agree that they were right and that you better listen when an old friend is trying to tell you that you are messing up. The move is financially too stupid to be all about oil. I think they wanted to get rid of a psychopath and do a Japan/Germany with Iraq. Make it a shining example in the region. Their end game is visible in Japan and Germany, free and prosperous countries, however their nation building incompetence is what killed them in Iraq. Bremer and firing all the army guys of Saddam who now run ISIS. Idiot. Yes they might have been dirty people and we now also see that, but he should have been smarter. Bremer was the American ambassador for the Netherlands by the way. They also did not understand how deep the hate was between the sunni and shia people who started to blow each other up.

    Afganistan received great help from the west. I spoke to my barber yesterday, a lovely lady from Afganistan and a Muslim and she wanted Dutch soldiers there (though did have problems with Americans) in the fight against the Taliban. She told me that she would walk over the street now and that men walk up to her and tell her how to dress and where her husband is, apart from all the fighting. Yes, we have spend a lot of money to create a safe environment in the area they were responsible for and Dutch people have died in that mission. We owe it to them to speak respectful about the contributions. There are plenty of people doing work for noble ideas.

    The end game of the interventions is creating stability in the region. Not always. Like the Iran situation perhaps back in the day. A guy like Sadam was a loose canon though. I would like Suren to weigh in on this one as he said he was Iraqi Dutch. I have listened to other Iraqi though and they said life was like living in a prison in Iraq during Sadam. We have this cynical situation in the region that leaders are either religious creeps or dictators being half or full psychopaths. That says something about the people living there. Look at Turkey. What is their excuse? Could be a Muslim country finally getting it right. Nope. Choose Erdogan, not being any better than a Putin. Just this week Turkey has blocked forums like Reddit. If we look at Freedomhouse, they are tumbling down with their freedom rating. Freedom is being killed there and over 60% of the Dutch Turks voted for the maniac. What is their excuse? Erdogan is a Muslim fanatic and the people love him for it and vote on him and as a result of that freedom and equality are being killed as is the secular society. Everything we stand for here in the west and in the Netherlands.

    No it is not the same equation for Muslims as they create all this mess with advancing a totalitarian ideology, not speaking out against Islamism enough. Only Tunisia is where the moderate Muslims finally are able to win from the extremists. When the Netherlands was liberated by the Allied forces, we did not start to blow each other up. We did not started to hate the people who liberated us from oppression like the Iraqi were liberated from Sadam. Yes there was also a lot of collateral damage in the Netherlands. The allied forces leveled places and killed many Dutch people. That is the process of war. After that we even started a union with our old occupiers, the Germans. Now we have 1 coin. You move on. Look at the shia and sunni blowing each other up though. That is religion. Look at their outrage towards the Jews and where is it with the occupation carried out by Morocco or Turkey? Crickets. Where is the outrage about voices that want to wipe Israel from the face of the map? What if Palestine had the weapons like Israel would have? They would wipe out Israel yesterday. Only their weakness is a limit, not their own self restrain and mindset of tolerance, freedom and equality. Read in this thread how Palestinians themselves say how racist people are there:

    * https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/3sus9b/so_many_ignorant_people_on_my_facebook_feed/

    The Muslim world is full of severe discrimination and that can be traced back to the scripture:

    http://memd.cf/100ReasonsILeftIslam.html#h.jsv1s5fdvczo

    Many things can be worked out between an Israel and Palastine, but a religious point like the city of Jeruzalem remains a problem. It is religion IMO. Muslims need to start looking at their scripture and come to a reinterpretation and deal with all the thoughts of non Muslims being inferior and such and stop imposing their religion on their minorities in their country. I am not interested in how they treat me on vacation, but my atheist counterparts there. The fact they get their way in so many of their countries, only held back by dictators who in a cynical way are the moderating forces, is probably the source of all this frustration that there is there towards the west. Muslim extremist (generalization and I already singled out Tunesia as promising) are used to get their way wherever they are. They are the biggest oppressors in the world bar none. It is just that we in the west do not allow to get their way all the time. Now Turkey who was once a candidate to become member of the EU has been starting to fall. It is the same theme over and over again. Islam rises, freedom gets killed. After that, equality. After that even life if you are not a Muslim or have to settle for a position of discrimination by laws.

    This problem can only be solved by moderate Muslims. They need to stand up and separate their religion from Islamism. Which basically means strip it from all the severe discrimination. That eventually also leads to stopping terrorism as that is just some degrees more severe discrimination where the lack of regard of other life is totally gone.

    No we can't I agree. However remember that ISIS has said that they want to take over Europe. Communism was not beaten by containing it. It was done by beating it. You can't let cancer grow. If they get their infrastructure ready and the flow of money going, they can become stronger and stronger. We have looked the other way when Hitler rose to power, it did not go well. These dangerous ideologies that want to take over the world need to be battled proactively. The Muslim Major of Rotterdam just called up for the destruction of ISIS. However also he does not address the underlying issue. ISIS is just one face of a much bigger monster. The whole wahabi interpretation of Islam and the export of that sick ideology by Saudi Arabia. That is the big problem. After an ISIS there will be other groups. The thinking behind it must end. That has to do with a horrible interpretation of Islam.

    France is incompetent indeed. They are good in retaliation, not in prevention. They do not have soft structures in place in the neighborhoods of workers, police and parole officers and what not that work like antennae in those places. That pick information up. Counter terrorism is information and France does a lousy job in the neighborhoods. England and Netherlands do have that in place though. Big difference.

    What if ISIS becomes stronger and more wealthy? They clearly state they want to attack Europe and the West. More money and power will only lead to more destruction in some time. Also we are doing the work Muslim nations should do. We also take in all these refugees and where is Saudi Arabia in this story? They are rich. It is us again and they keep exporting their fascism that leads to all this instability.
     
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  20. Suren01

    Suren01 Member+

    Apr 9, 2012
    Netherlands
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/37401/Aansla...l-aanslagen-loopt-op-paniek-om-vuurwerk.dhtml

    ...
     
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  21. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  22. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  23. curbo

    curbo Member

    Apr 14, 2012
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yet here in in europe we facilitate exactly this by cowering down and selflimiting our freedom of speech. If you critisise Islam you are seen as an rightwingextremist, if you critisise Israel you are seen as an antisemite. When cartoonists, when charlie hebdo were attacked we condemmed the terrorists but didnt adress the fact enough that these are attacks on freedom of speech. What we should be doing is making a ton of cartoons about Mohammed the kiddy fiddling robber. We do the same for Christians, we do the same for Jews. Selfimposed taboo´s about Islam (and Isreal) is a major problem Even Southpark episodes were and are still cencored when they addressed this issue. Islam isnt doing this to us, we are.

    If we make exceptions for Islam then we agree that Islam is better, or holy, or whatever. We are facilitating.
     
  24. Suren01

    Suren01 Member+

    Apr 9, 2012
    Netherlands
    Nat'l Team:
    Iraq
    My overal opinion? I was as shocked as everyone when I heard about the Paris attacks. For me there is no difference, whether it happens in France, Nigeria or Iraq. We are all human, and we are talking about innocent people... Mothers, fathers, parents, children.

    I am praying that ISIS will get wiped out of the entire world, and I think most of the people would agree with me. I don't believe that there are much extremists between the refugees. After all, my parents were refugees as well 25 years ago.

    We came to Europe to build a safe life, to get far away of all the violence and terror that Saddam caused. It saddens me to see these kind of attacks happening in Europe :( May they all rest in peace.
     
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  25. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Well this is what I am curious about. If interventions are the thing that can prevent all this, why then do we see it all over the world. We even had attacks in Thailand one or two months ago. There is clearly something much bigger in play here. Where is this all coming from? Over 5 or 6000 European youngsters have gone to help in Syria and Iraq and join an organisation spreading it's evil and genocide. What is their excuse? Was the chocomel on school not creamy enough? Where are all the christian European kids joining christian terrorist groups in central Africa? These Muslim kids know what ISIS is doing, we see it all the time on TV and yet they go.

    IMO we have to face the real problem. Wahhabism. The sh*t that Saudi Arabia is exporting. We have had Nazism. We have had communism. I am willing to separate Islam from Islamism and Wahhabism, but this intolerant evil attitude is coming from somewhere else, as in the same conditions we do not see Christians act all crazy. Why are there else so many attacks between shia and sunni people? Do you have any views on that? Do we need an enlightenment in Islam? Are you angry with Muslims doing everything to protect the image of Islam rather than looking at all the destruction around them and start to demand changes from within? Changes in how they treat their own minorities? USA is very religious, unlike Europe, yet they just legislated gay marriage. That can only be done if people that call themselves Christian do not take Leviticus literally. That is what I mean.
     

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