Not you again - 2019 UK general election thread.

Discussion in 'Elections' started by Naughtius Maximus, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Unless you're saying that any of those specific decisions were wrong that is, again, a meaningless phrase.

    It could be argued that not agreeing to stand down from the role of temporary PM, demanded by Jo Swinson, was a mistake but by then we'd already changed our position to accepting a 2nd referendum which had been a long term demand of several people on here IIRC, (mentioning no names, of course;)).

    In all honesty the biggest problem with Corbyn wasn't the decisions he'd made recently... it was the ones he'd made many, many years ago, to wit...

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland

    But, as I said, I'm coming around to the conclusion that it simply might not be possible to have a left-wing labour government elected in this country because of our electoral system and the presence of other anti-tory parties giving the voters an alternative if our policies 'frighten the horses'.

    So while we could certainly have done better the chances of anyone 'doing a Jacinda' is probably low over here. Although, obviously, the rather odd manifesto was a negative and the conference inspired decision to reverse course on a 2nd referendum was a total turn-off for many voters in leave areas.
     
  2. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    During the election I had my 'vote labour' sticker on my window and a delivery drivers was walking past and, as he did so, he said 'fecking labour' with a scowl.

    He was a delivery driver for, you guessed it.. Amazon :D
     
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  3. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Wanna bet?
     
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  4. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How often are UK constituencies redrawn and re-allocated? If people are moving out of certain areas, it sounds like they could get pretty uneven in population?
     
  5. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That's a bit of a bone of contention because labour and others have resisted redrawing the constituency boundaries for quite a while now.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Periodic_Review_of_Westminster_constituencies

    The thing is there was an increase in the number of voters when the brexit referendum was announced and they, (and some other changes), weren't included in the 'new' data IIRC.
     
  6. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So constituencies are drawn based on voters and not actual population? That seems.. Interesting.

    I wonder if Labour is more open to it now?
     
  7. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's always been the number of registered voters I believe.

    I don't think it makes any difference now because the tories will likely press ahead despite complaints from us and the LibDems who are also against it... or were.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth...Political_and_economic_impact_and_controversy
     
  8. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  9. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    ???

    Not sure why you say that.

    The main body are the civil servants and council staff making the decisions. The politicians say is normally quite limited. It's actually been an aberration for labour and the libdems to slow down the procedure this time and, even then, it's only been a matter of 'putting it off'.

    It's also the case that the areas are large enough for it to be quite hard for any particular party to gain an advantage.

    Well, that's the situation for national constituencies anyway. The borough and parish/town ones are a lot smaller, obviously, but then the boroughs are lumped together into larger areas, (usually quite a bit bigger than the constituencies, actually), so it's hard for any particular party to gain an advantage.

    Also, of course, because political power tends to go back and forth between parties nationally they don't tend to try and force much of an advantage because they know it will go the other way next time.
     
  10. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1207030989874225157 is not a valid tweet id


     
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  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    So basically the idea of labour leave voters flocking to vote tory is bullshit

    The Tories turned out their base, but actually only marginally better than 2017 which was regarded as a disaster

    Meanwhile Labour turnout collapsed
     
  12. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's possible some Labour voters went Tory. People who cannot stomach not voting, hated Corbyn, and voted Leave.

    It's far more likely Labour voters sat on their hands because Corbyn is radioactive.
     
  13. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    ???

    Did anyone say different?
     
  14. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    This was in the Indi a week ago...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tion-brexit-leave-corbyn-voting-a9244931.html

    I can probably generate some data for this if you give me a few days but it will only be local and only in those areas we normally do well in... but it should be a guide.
     
  15. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    FYP ;)

    But I suspect it's a combination of a few things, actually, including a piss-poor campaign, a cloth-eared response to what voters wanted in general, (free broadband???), and Corbyn's 'baggage', (his alleged 'support' for IRA terrorism was mentioned on the doorstep on quite a few occasions).
     
  16. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tons of people on the radio, television, and in the halls of Parliament the past few days. Boris Johnson said that Northern Labour voters that had voted Conservative needed to be "kept." It's a part of his populist pitch.

    It's being stated everywhere.
     
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  17. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Ah, yeah. I thought you meant on here.

    A few people were saying that and some were simply included in our 'against' classification, (for obvious reasons), but until we get the marked reg we won't know how many people actually turned out.

    Our thoughts, subjectively, is that it was mainly a matter of our lot not bothering but also, (and this we won't have much data for as they're not people we'd be contacting this time), is that it might have been people we'd class as non-voters which, presumably, were the folks that voted in the referendum but didn't turn out for the 2017 GE.

    So I agree... there's more data still to come in other than the turn-out figures we already know.
     
  18. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    LOL they decided to ignore political scientists and got crushed.
     
  19. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The dude does mention the source, the Sunday times, but as far as I can tell, he never links to the original website.

    He works for the Sunday times, you would thin he would want to give people a chance to follow up and click on a link that directs to the story.
     
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  20. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It says it was 'leaked by a trade union' so I doubt they'd want to claim any 'credit' for releasing the information... y'know, without mentioning any names of course...

    [​IMG]

    ;)
     
  21. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think it's more to do with the fact that they ignored everyone and only listened to people who already agreed with them. Many others who weren't political scientists tried as well.

    TBH, I could have told them what the reaction would be back in May when we were canvassing for the local elections. We had to keep stressing, over and over, 'Look... you're ONLY voting for the local council, FORGET the national politics'.

    That's generally not a good sign :(

    But this guy, who I'm sure you're aware of, has an interesting take on all this although some of his conclusions would generally be thought to be... 'problematic', shall we say.



    This was his take after we'd voted to leave the EU which covers many of the same points.



    So maybe it comes back to the point about us being squeezed by our FPTP electoral system, the split of the anti-tory vote AND the fall in the number of working class voters.

    Of course, even that is forgetting the fact that, as he says, we've become accustomed to ignoring those people when they express views we find uncomfortable or inappropriate, relying on lazy stereotypes to dismiss them.
     
  22. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would you mind going back through every single general election since World War 2 and tell me how many more or fewer seats Labour would have received under proportional representation rules? A simple, Israel-style system will do.

    I have already done this and know the answer, but I want to see you do it.
     
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  23. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am old enough to remember a poster who defended the local election results by saying "they aren't predictive of general election results" or something.

    Come to think of it...YOU were that poster. Wowza!
     
  24. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Strangely, I don't actually have to do what you tell me to do. Odd, I know :)

    But I will just observe that...

    1. People vote in the system that is used in that particular election so you can't just extrapolate from the existing data. Even the dimmest bulb should have realised THAT!
    2. I tend to favour a version of the AV system.
     
  25. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    So, I say the same thing now as I did then?

    I mean, that was my point. You get that, right?
     

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