Non roster WC winners

I thought WS magazine, their award was a result of a voting among its readers... Not sure I am right, but if I am I would not call that "analysts"...
The posts by Vegan about Maradona and Zico in the early 80s must be this one. Gotta find the posts though:
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/is-zico-not-maradona-the-second-best-player-ever.1784415/

I think JGGott can benefit from reading it.

 

I already spoke about WS and their award. And considering Maradona missed the first two and a half months of 1983 due to hepatitis and the last 3 months due to a broken ankle, it does not surprise me he did not win individual awards that year.
I do not hold Maradona was "isolated" as the one, only and absolute best player during the first half of the 80s. But nobody was and Maradona was most certainly among the three or four up there in that talk. If you find and read what Vegan was shared on that matter, you will understand.
The 1986 WC forever put Maradona in the Olympus of football, sure. But I hope you dont think Maradona was as good as we all know he was only "86's onwards"...

 

Which is exactly what I said in my post.

Again, Maradona was a top 3-4 on the first half of the 80's.
I've seen Zico being pointed as the best player in early 80's much more often than Maradona, who was only 20 years old in 1980 - whilst Zico was at his peak, being 26 or 27.
It's logical. It's common sense. What is so absurd about that? Just check both guys' WC performances in 1982 and compare them. And yes, I know WC performances is not everything, but it's a good and tangible example of both players side by side on the pitch.
But I gotta go after all these sources, which I won't bother to do right now and won't prove a thing anyway. An analysts' poll (who said analysts remain neutral when the rival can be benefited?) done in Brazil at the time would clearly put Zico on top. No doubt about it.
A poll made in Argentina at the time would probably put Maradona on top, even though he was very young.
A worldwide poll would probably use COMMON SENSE and put Zico on top from 1980 to 1983, with Platini and Maradona following closely behind.

Anyway, I'm done talking about Maradona here. Especially because it tends to attract so many fanatics that it becomes plain boring.

 

@Pipiolo

I'm changing the set-up.
I think I messed up the duos up front, although several alternatives can be (and were) used. Bare in mind Brazil 70 is known as the team of the "five number 10's" (seven with Dirceu and Ademir included in the rosters).

1) GK: Manga - Raul Plasmann - Leão
2) RB: Carlos Alberto Torres - Zé Maria
3/4) CB: Djalma Dias - Roberto Dias - Leônidas - Brito
6) LB: Rildo - Everaldo
5) DM: Piazza - Clodoaldo
8) CM: Gérson - Ademir da Guia
11) AM: Rivellino - Dirceu Lopes
10) AM/FW: Pelé - Paulo Cézar "Caju" Lima
7) RW/LW/FW: Jairzinho - Edú
9) ST/CF: Tostão - Toninho Guerreiro

I'm sorry, but this amount of firepower is RIDICULOUS. I challenge anyone on this forum to come up with a realistic squad in the HISTORY of football with more firepower than this.

 

Alright, I'll use this squad for the comparison.

 

Let me show you what I mean by legendary Cruzeiro and Palmeiras (Santos, Botafogo) players from the 60's, which you seemed a bit dubious about. This Brazil'70 squad has:

- Carlos Alberto, Djalma Dias, Rildo, Clodoaldo, Pelé, Edu and Guerreiro playing for Santos. SEVEN players.

- Raul, Brito, Piazza, Dirceu Lopes and Tostão playing for Cruzeiro (5 players) + Fontana (taken) + Zé Carlos (almost taken - got dropped when Zagallo took over as manager). SEVEN or EIGHT players in question.

- Leão and Ademir da Guia for Palmeiras (2 players) + Baldocchi (taken) + Dudu/César (potential). FOUR or FIVE players in question.

- Leônidas, Paulo Cézar, Jairzinho (Gérson left in 1969) for Botafogo (3 players) + Roberto Miranda (taken) + Rogério (potential). About FIVE players in question.

Then you have a few players from São Paulo FC, Corinthians, Fluminense and some other teams.

But the clubs that were dominating Brazilian football in the 60's were Santos, Botafogo, Palmeiras and Cruzeiro. Hence, a great deal of their most legendary players also come from that period.

 

JGGott, do yourself a favor and go through that thread I linked. The point Vegan10 brings forward and the evidence he supports it with should interest you.

 

Well, I guess that settles it, then.

Messi was probably a greater player than Ronaldo at club level, but Ronaldo was definitely the greater player when it came to international performances (I'm still looking for someone who disagrees that Messi being named best player of this World Cup is a complete and utter joke).

Messi could never do for Argentina what he did for Barcelona. He never even came close to being the same player for his national team as he was for his club.

Therefore, I call it a draw between the two.

And of course, NONE of them can be compared to either Pelé or Maradona - today's match was the final proof that Maradona > Messi. If there was ever any serious debate about it, it ended today.

 

Agree, Messi falls short of Maradona. And he should not have won the Golden Ball, should have gone to either Rodriguez or Robben.

 

@msioux75 Hey, man.
I've upgraded Brazil'58 and Brazil'62 non-roster squads. There might be still a few names missing, but I think the main ones are all there now. I've come up with a full 23-men squad for both. This seems a lot more realistic:

BRAZIL'58 ROSTERS
GK: Gilmar (COR) – Castilho (FLU)
RB: Djalma Santos (POR) – De Sordi (SPA)
CB: Bellini (VAS) – Mauro (SPA) – Orlando (VAS) – Zózimo (BAN)
LB: Nílton Santos (BOT) – Oreco (COR)
DM: Zito (SAN) – Dino Sani (SPA)
CM: Didi (BOT) – Moacir (FLA)
RW: Garrincha (BOT) – Joel (FLA)
FW: Pelé (SAN) – Dida (FLA) – Vavá (VAS) – Altafini (PAL)
LW: Zagallo (FLA) – Pepe (SAN)

BRAZIL'58 NON-ROSTERS
GK: Carlos Alberto (POR) – Ernani (BAN) – Veludo (ATL)
RB: Paulinho (VAS) – Cacá (FLU)
CB: Jadir (FLA) – Olavo (COR) – Ênio Rodrigues (GRE) – Pinheiro (FLU)
LB: Altair (FLU) – Coronel (VAS)
DM: Roberto Belangero (COR) – Pampolini (BOT)
CM/AM: Luizinho (COR) – Gessy (GRE)
RW: Julinho Botelho (FIO) – Sabará (VAS)
FW: Evaristo (BAR) – Almir de Albuquerque (VAS) – Del Vecchio (VER) – Gino Orlando (SPA)
LW: Canhoteiro (SPA) – Quarentinha (BOT)

Honorable mentions: Adalberto (GK-BOT) – Aírton Pavilhão (CB-GRE) – Calvet (CB-GRE) – Édson (CB-AME) – Pavão (CB-FLA) – Victor Ratautas (CB-SPA) – Jordan (LB-FLA) – Dequinha (DM-FLA) – Ênio Andrade (CM-PAL) – Décio Esteves (AM-BAN) – Canário (RW-AME) – Dorval (RW-SAN) – Maurinho (RW-SPA) – Telê Santana (RW-FLU) – Álvaro (FW-SAN) – Henrique Frade (FW-FLA) – Humberto Tozzi (FW-LAZ) – Índio (FW-COR) – Juarez (FW-GRE) – Larry (FW-INT) – Pagão (FW-SAN) – Paulinho Valentim (FW-BOT) – Vasconcelos (FW-SAN) – Waldo (FW-FLU) – Walter Marciano (FW-VAL) – Chinesinho (LW-INT) – Escurinho (LW-FLU).

BRAZIL'62 ROSTERS
GK: Gilmar (SAN) – Castilho (FLU)
RB: Djalma Santos (PAL) – Jair Marinho (FLU)
CB: Mauro (SAN) – Zózimo (BAN) – Bellini (SPA) – Jurandir (SPA)
LB: Nílton Santos (BOT) – Altair (FLU)
DM: Zito (SAN) – Zequinha (PAL)
CM: Didi (BOT) – Mengálvio (SAN)
RW: Garrincha (BOT) – Jair da Costa (POR)
FW: Pelé (SAN) – Amarildo (BOT) – Vavá (PAL) – Coutinho (SAN)
LW: Zagallo (BOT) – Pepe (SAN)

BRAZIL'62 NON-ROSTERS
GK: Valdir (PAL) – Laércio (SAN) – Manga (BOT)
RB: De Sordi (SPA) – Joel (BOT)
CB: Orlando (BJU) – Aírton Pavilhão (GRE) – Calvet (SAN) – Djalma Dias (AME)
LB: Rildo (BOT) – Oreco (COR)
DM: Dino Sani (MIL) – Carlinhos (FLA)
CM: Chinesinho (PAL) – Benê (SPA)
RW: Dorval (SAN) – Canário (RMA)
FW: Evaristo (BAR) – Paulinho Valentim (BJU) – Quarentinha (BOT) – Altafini (MIL)
LW: Germano (FLA) – Roberto Frojuello (RPL)

Honorable mentions: Aldemar (CB-PAL) – Barbosinha (CB-VAS) – Paulistinha (CB-BOT) – Waldemar Carabina (CB-PAL) – Dalmo (LB-SAN) – Geraldo Scotto (LB-PAL) – Ivan (LB-AME) – Aírton (DM-BOT) – Amaro (DM-AME) – Écio (DM-VAS) – Calazans (RW-FLU) – Julinho Botelho (RW-PAL) – Almir de Albuquerque (FW-FIO) – Delém (FW-RPL) – Nei (FW-COR) – Prado (FW-SPA) – Servílio (FW-POR) – Waldo (FW-VAL) – Zeola (FW-PAL) – Romeiro (LW-PAL).

This is pretty much the bulk of it: all the greatest Brazilian players from late 50's and early 60's. Don't think I've missed any major names.
What do you guys think? Any more names?

 

I did consider including Internacional's Florindo (he was a CB, though). He was part of the "Gaúcho" National Team that represented Brazil at the Pan-American games in 1956. He never really made it onto the main Brazil squad, very probably because in those days if you were not playing in Sao Paulo and, especially, Rio de Janeiro, you had very reduced chances. Minas Gerais and Rio Grande do Sul only truly enter the picture in the second half of the 60's and 70's. Those are the 4 main footballing States in Brazil.
Exactly the same thing goes for Ortunho (Grêmio). I did consider his team-mates Élton (DM) and Mílton Kuelle (CM/FW) as well, but I think all three might be better picks for 1962 rather than 1958 (especially the first two). All of three were named for the all-time Grêmio squad by Placar in 1982.
I did mention Formiga in my comment. You've probably missed it. And Joel was a roster in 1958, mate...
By Ílton do you mean Hílton Vaccari (could be Ílton Vaccari as well)?
I think Dino Costa and Luís Vinício are good calls, especially the first one. There are so many forwards in 1958 that could make it.
Delém... I do mention him - not for the 1958 team, but the 1962 one. I don't think he had that many chances in 1958, not only because he was a bit young, but especially because there were so many forward players that had the preference over him. He wasn't really being called-up until 1960, before he moved to Argentina. So I guess he is a 1962 man, not a 1958 one.
As far as I know, Olavo was always a CB and that's where he was tested with the NT. Doesn't really matter, because in those days full-backs and centre-backs had more similar funtions (priority to defending) and could swap positions without much problem. But I don't think Olavo was ever a LB - may I ask you where you got that info?
Finally, Quarentinha did play as a LW up until Zagallo went to Botafogo from Flamengo in 1958 (after the World Cup). That's when he became a FW, alongside Valentim and that's the reason I put Quarentinha as a FW in 1962, but as a LW in 1958.
In 1958, he didn't have a chance to be called-up: the LW was dominated by Canhoteiro (the best of them all) and Pepe (2nd best) and even Zagallo, but still a good 4th option (I still put him over Fluminense's Escurinho). But in 1962, he was one of the most notable absences.

I'll check the 1962 names later.

Thanks!

 

OK - I'll go through the names I'm familiar with first.

Felix was the GK for Brazil in 1970 and is still pointed as one of the weak links of that squad. I don't think he was even being considered in 1966, let alone in 1962. He was definitely not in the picture in 1962.
Paulinho (RB) was a bit past it in 1962. He was part of the squad at WC'54 and his last big chance had been in 1958, when he could have been a starter if he hadn't got injured. No need to mention him for the 1962 squad - I don't want to overcrowd it with options; just want to put the ones that really could be there.
Brito and Fontana are '66 and '70 men. Definitely not '62. Procópio could be a 1962 man because he was such a great CB, but still his peak was with Cruzeiro in mid to late 60's - so I'd say he is also more of a 1966 and 1970 man rather than 1962. But he is the best choice for 1962 out of the three you mention.
Already talked about Ortunho in my previous comment.
Coronel was a good option for 1958, when I included him. Not so much in 1962. He was never world class, just a good player. I'd say in 1962, he falls short to the likes of Rildo, Oreco, Dalmo and Geraldo Scotto - at least 4 better options than him - no need for me to include him in 1962.
Lima is also an efficient player. Multi-functional, he could play almost anywhere on the pitch (DM, RB, CM, probably CB as well). But in 1962 he was not a DM for Santos (Zito was), but a RB. Too young for a 1962 called up (considering he is not world class) - I wouldn't include him. He is a '66 name and he was taken in '66.
Zequinha was in that 1962 squad - he was Zito's substitute. And Dudu was the man who came to Palmeiras in 1964 to replace Zequinha - so he does not enter the picture until 1964. It wouldn't make sense to mention him in 1962, although he is definitely a 1966 and 1970 name.
Dino Costa is definitely a 1958 name that I missed (even though I knew who he was). Not so much a 1962 one - put maybe he could be included.
I did consider Moacir. He went to play abroad after his participation at WC'58 and roamed from one club to another, never settling down. I think that fact put me off a bit - he didn't seem to be as successful as other Brazilian players playing abroad. So I won't include him in 1962 for that reason, even though I wasn't sure.
Dida was also considered. Funny how he was such a big name in 1958, but wasn't really a regular part of the NT after that. I guess Flamengo's decline (the club's peak was from 1953 to 1961) was responsible for that: other Flamengo players that had been strong names in 1958 were not that strong in 1962. So I have to leave him out. If a player of his caliber was really doing good in 1962, then he would have been part of the squad.
I think Del Vecchio was declining in 1962 - he did not do well with A.C. Milan that year - played 9 matches and only scored 3 goals. Then he went back to Padova and only played 4 more games with them. Then he moved to Boca Juniors and only played 6 games. He was definitely fading in 1962, even though he had been such a strong name in 1958 and probably would have been taken that year if he hadn't made a move overseas. So I can't include Del Vecchio.
Canhoteiro was also not the same in 1962 - if a man who was called Garrincha's equivalent on the left is not being even considered to be part of the squad in 1962, then he must be performing way below his standards and, therefore, does not deserve to be mentioned for the 1962 squad. His last appearance with the NT was in 1959 and he was 30 in 1962.

Like I said, I don't want to overcrowd the squad with players that do not really deserve it.

I'm not that familiar with the other names. I'll have to check them out.

Thanks again, man!

 

Do you mean Vaccari, who played for Bangu?

Continuing:
Angelo Sormani seems a good call, although apparently he couldn't find space at Santos.
I would not include Silva Batuta, though: his peak came with Flamengo, later on in the 60's - which earned him a call-up for Brazil at WC'66. But he was struggling in '61 (and he was very young as well) fighting for a place with Botafogo and in '62 he got transferred to Corinthians. Not a '62 name.
Clerici is definitely not a 1962 man for me either. Too young and wasn't really doing much in Italy by then.
Geraldo José da Silva (I guess that's the one you mean) played for Palmeiras, but was mainly a substitute for Vavá - not sure he'd deserve to be placed here. On the other hand, Palmeiras was a heck of a team already in the early 60's and being on the bench for Palmeiras was a merit in itself - so maybe he's not a bad option after all.
Fernando Puglia is not a bad name. Don't think his absence would be that much of a miss, but perhaps still deserves to be mentioned. Played for Palmeiras in the 50's, when the team was doing poorly and had a long drought of titles that lasted practically the whole decade (started in 1951 - when Palmeiras were the first Club World Champions in football history - and ended with the Paulista Championship in 1959, which was the starting point of "the Academy" period throughout the 60's and part of the 70's). He left one year before Palmeiras came back into the picture.
Bruno Siciliano is a bit like the previous 2 guys. Perhaps deserves to be mentioned, but wouldn't be a serious contender to make the squad.
Cané would be a better call in 1966 than in 1962, when he was still with Olaria and was too young.

I'm having a hard time finding some of the players you mentioned. Could you give me some extra info on them, please (lie where they played and stuff...)?
- Waldemar (GK)
- Jorge (RB)
- Clóvis (LB)
- Ílton (DM) (Vaccari?)

Thanks, @msioux75

 

Just to clarify it, @msioux75 . Olavo played occasionally as a LB. The thing is up until late 50's, Full-Backs did not use to venture up front, and were basically defensive players. Also, the formation did not allow that kind of player to exist then. So Olavo could play as centre-back or as a defender on the left side, but as soon as the formations started changing and LB's became more like modern LB's, he was definitely established as a CB. He made his name with Corinthians (and the NT) mainly as a CB, not as a LB.
Another proof that Olavo was not a LB by the time of the World Cup in 1958 is that Oreco was the LB for Corinthians since he arrived at the club, in 1957. Olavo was the CB and Oreco (who ended up being taken to the World Cup as Nilton Santos' sub) was the LB.

And Quarentinha, like I said, was a LW for Botafogo until July 1958, when Zagallo joined the squad coming from Flamengo, after being on the Brazilian WC winning squad 2 weeks before.
Quarentinha struggled playing as a winger in his first years with Botafogo, because that was not his position. He was even loaned to Bonsucesso in 1956 because he wasn't doing too well. Quarentinha really started to settle with Botafogo in 1957 (when they won the Carioca Championship), still as a LW; and was moved to the FW position (taking Édison's spot and joining Valentim) as soon as Zagallo arrived (who took over the LW), after the WC.

The first match with this new set-up was on July 13th 1958:
Botafogo had Didi(CM) - Garrincha(RW) - P.Valentim(FW) - Quarentinha(FW) - Zagallo(LW) up front - still regarded as the most powerful attacking line-up in the history of Botafogo.

How menacing is that?

 

Nice, man.
Yes, I suspected it was Ílton Vaccari you were talking about (sometimes they put an "H" in front of his first name). He was also known as Ílton Porco".
I don't know, man. I think it's a bit too much for him to be mentioned amongst the other names. He never made a move to a big club in Brazil.
In his career, he played for Bangu, América-RJ and Guarani - all three, medium sized clubs in Brazil. In Rio de Janeiro, the big four are Flamengo, Vasco, Botafogo and Fluminense (Bangu and América are in the 2nd tier); and in Sao Paulo, the big four are Palmeiras, Corinthians, Sao Paulo and Santos (Guarani, Portuguesa, Ponte Preta are in the second tier).
Sure the gap between the big ones and the medium-sized ones was smaller back then, but it already existed. Of course, every once in a while these smaller clubs would form strong teams and challenge the big ones - so much so that I did include a few Bangu and América players that were doing well at the time on my squads. But I think Ílton only played for Brazil when the squad was formed by smaller club players that were chosen to represent the NT for a friendly or for smaller competitions (like the Pan-American and South American championships). I don't think he was ever seriously considered for Brazil's main national team. If I include him, then I have to include other players from the big teams that have not been mentioned. It wouldn't be fair.
Exactly the same goes for Waldemar (no way he deserves to be mentioned ahead of other GKs from big clubs at the time - like Corinthians' Cabeção, for example). Like I said, some players only got a chance to represent the NT because the smaller clubs were given a chance to play international matches, not because they were actually the best players in Brazil at the time.
Jorge de Souza is very probably the greatest RB of all time for América. So I guess his inclusion could be justified by that fact. Still, he never really had any serious chances to make it with the National Team. Still, the best name out of the bunch.
As for Clóvis - NO WAY. That would be the same as calling Carlinhos Bala to play for Brazil.

Regarding Olavo, he played as a CB for Brazil in 1955. Then he seems to have played a few times for Brazil as a LB in 1957. But in 1958, he was on the list with 40 players that is handed to FIFA before every WC (he was one of the chosen to be cut) and he was listed as a CB there (whilst his team-mate Oreco was the LB).
So.. ultimately, Olavo is a CB much more than a LB. Corinthians fans relate to him as a CB, not as a LB.

As for Édson (who also played as a LB), he was one of the few players from América that were consistently being called up to play for Brazil MAIN SQUAD in 1957 (after many players from these smaller clubs were tested in 1956). So his case is a bit different than the other guys' - he actually made it onto the main squad. Also, he is often mentioned as one of the greatest defensive players in América's history - so that counts in his favour as well. I think his inclusion is more justifiable.

 

Moving on to BRAZIL'66 squads:

ROSTERS
GK: Gilmar (SAN) – Manga (BOT)
RB: Djalma Santos (PAL) – Fidélis (BAN)
CB: Altair (FLU) – Bellini (SPA) – Orlando Peçanha (SAN) – Brito (VAS)
LB: Paulo Henrique (FLA) – Rildo (BOT)
DM: Denílson (FLU) – Zito (SAN)
CM: Gérson (BOT) – Lima (SAN)
RW: Jairzinho (BOT) – Garrincha (COR)
FW: Pelé (SAN) – Alcindo (GRE) – Silva Batuta (FLA) – Tostão (CRU)
LW: Paraná (SPA) – Edu (SAN)

Most notable absences: Carlos Alberto Torres, Djalma Dias and Ademir da Guia.

NON-ROSTERS
GK: Valdir (PAL) – Ubirajara (BAN) – Fábio (SPA)
RB: Carlos Alberto Torres (SAN) – Murilo (FLA)
CB: Djalma Dias (PAL) – Leônidas (AME) – Procópio (PAL) – Fontana (VAS)
LB: Oldair (VAS) – Édson Cegonha (COR)
DM: Roberto Dias (SPA) – Dudu (PAL)
CM: Ademir da Guia (SPA) – Dirceu Lopes (CRU)
RW: Jair da Costa (INT) – Paulo Borges (BAN)
FW: Servílio (PAL) – Ivair (POR) – Célio (VAS) – Flávio Minuano (COR)
LW: Rinaldo (PAL) – Amarildo (MIL)

Honorable mentions: Ditão (CB-COR) – Fefeu (AM-SPA) – Nado (RW-NAU) – Natal (RW-CRU) – Parada (FW-BOT) – Ademar Pantera (FW-PAL) – Cané (FW-NAP) – Hilton Oliveira (FW-CRU) – Abel (LW-SAN)

No major names missing, I believe.... Any suggestions, @msioux75 ?

 

Argentina WC14 Non-roster.

GK: Caballero, Barovero, Ustari
RB: Zanetti, Peruzzi
CBs: Fazio, Otamendi, Coloccini, G Rodriguez
LB: Ansaldi, Sanchez Mino
DM: Yacob, Cambiasso
CM: Banega, Belluschi
PM: Pastore, Riquelme
AM: D'Alessandro, Lamela
SF: Tevez, Saviola
ST: Scocco, Icardi

 

good list guys ...

 

Thanks, man. But I forgot to mention Piazza (DM-CRU).

 

I didn't know that about Zozimo. He was an excellent player, definitely the greatest Centre-Back to play for Bangu in the second half of the 20th Century (up to today). But he was a bit past it in 1966, wastn't he? 34 years old already. It seems to me that, if he'd been taken, he would probably be just another name on the list of the 4 veterans who should not have been taken in 1966 (Zito, Bellini, Garrincha and Djalma Santos).
But he was an excellent player. The fact that he was elected best foreign player in Peru at 34 years of age just proves that (were there many foreigners playing in Peru, though?).
Still, I wouldn't say he was a name to be considered for that WC, just like the other 4 players should not have been taken either (they were only taken due to political reasons and the whole mess that was the Brazilian organisation for that WC).

As for Parana and Alcindo, I wouldn't consider them for 1970. Both of them were very good players, but never world-class. And that 1970 squad was made up by world-class players in literally every attacking position.
Alcindo, of course, was an excellent centre-forward - I believe he is still the all-time top scorer for Gremio and is definitely the greatest striker in the club's history, together with Renato Gaucho - but he was not top world-class like the 1970 guys (Tostao, Rivellino, Paulo Cezar, Jairzinho...).
I'd say he could be mentioned for 1970, but I wouldn't include him amongst the non-rosters either (Toninho Guerreiro and Cesar Maluco seem like much more obvious options as strikers to Alcindo, to me). Still, I believe he was the best name for the striker position in 1966 and his call-up was fair.

As for Parana, he is not an icon for his club like Alcindo is. Good player, but nothing beyond that. I actually think Alcindo had a much better chance of making it onto the squad in 1970 than Parana - Alcindo is probably comparable to Dario and Roberto Miranda, who were taken in 1970 (and were highly questionable picks at the time - especially when they took Toninho Guerreiro's spot).

I'll post the 1970 squads next and we can discuss them.