Hi.... Still trying to get my hands around HS vs. real world soccer. Question: I have seen almost every referee so far blow for offside very early. I have looked at the comparative study on the NFHS website and it doesn't say anything about active participation. It seems as if HS refs will not allow a player to be in an offside postion- period -when the ball is played in whether they are involved in the play or not. Help, please?
Re: NFHS Offside NFHS rules are the same as FIFA, almost to the letter. Rule 11 Art. 3 says "It is not an offense in itself to be in an offside position. A player shall only be penalized for being in an offside position if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by a teammate, that player is involved in active play by: a. interfering with play or with an opponent; or b. gaining an advantage by being in that position." They then use 9 pages of diagrams, courtesy of FIFA, to show examples. In short, there should be no difference between NFHS and FIFA in how offside is called. That doesn't mean, of course, that in practice HS referees might not get it wrong, especially if you're in an area where some refs do not also work USSF matches.
Re: NFHS Offside I guess I have been getting a ton of guys who don't see it that way. Thanks for the explanantion. How do I get that rulebook? Rog
Re: NFHS Offside I get an NFHS rule book every season since I'm a HS coach. I imagine (I hope!) that referees get one too. Otherwise, you have to be an NFHS member to view it online, or you can purchase it at http://www.nfhs.com for $6.95. There is some soccer rule information at http://www.nfhs.org, including a document comparing NFHS, FIFA and NCAA rules.
Re: NFHS Offside As stated above, offside is the same for USSF and NFHS Problem is many of the old time referees either don't keep up with changes, don't care or outright refuse and call it the way they want. Had a fellow at our chapter meeting insist that for a given "foul" we should call it differently if it is at midfield or in the PA...referees should take into account that a PK will result if I call it "in the box" so it has to be a "worse" foul for him to call it in the box
Re: NFHS Offside I'm on a crusade....I can't take the HS style at all. I'm trying relly hard to understand the why's and the wherefore's but it is really really hard to figure out why the people who are running the sport on the HS level in my state do not do anything to combat what I perceive as a disaster waiting to happen. The foul recognition ability of several referees I have seen this month would not be enough to handle a U-8 match let alone what truly constitutes u-19 on the HS level. I have seen more foul play allowed in a month of watching than in ten years of coaching and refereeing. But they will call the foul throw quicker than they call the take out in the center of the field that leaves the opponent writhing on the ground. I have to confront this, because it s plain dumb not to have the best refereeing the best. And because your senior (both in age and time refereeing) doesn't mean you are the best anymore. And what I have witnessed so far is almost criminal. I'm not talking about dodgy offside calls, or handling calls, I'm talking about the serious stuff that goes totally unpunished and leads to injury. It is not being recognized, and I'm amazed that the schools, parents, and AD's haven't come to grips with it. R
Re: NFHS Offside Unfortunately in my state, at least half of the H.S. refs don't have a clue as to the basics of offside. And it appears that the state doesn't really care as long as they get enough refs - no matter how unqualified - to show up for the games. Just yesterday, I had the privilige of seeing: 1. A player, racing a defender down the right side on a semi-breakaway, crosses to another forward who blows by her mark as the ball is played. Might have been a close call except that the recipient of the pass was at least three yards BEHIND the ball as it was played. The call, of course, was offside and it appeared the referee had no idea that a player cannot be offside if he/she is behind the ball when it is played. 2. A long high ball is played forward with an attacker obviously offside. That attacker jogs back towards an onside position with her head down - no involvement in the play, no interference with an opponent, and nowhere close to the ball. No whistle at that point. Meanwhile another attacker who was at least 10 yards onside when the ball was played races by the defenders, who are waiting for an offside call, and would have had a clean run to the goal except that the whistle was blown for offside when the clearly onside attacker touched the ball. You can't even make this stuff up. At least there were no offside calls on throw-ins in this game - I've seen those also.
Re: NFHS Offside I agree and am with you in spirit, but.... Keep in mind you're going up against school administrators here...it will be a long and difficult running battle if you continue your quest. It's the same here. Best of luck with your crusade. Really...no sarcasm intended. If your strategy works, please share it with us.
Re: NFHS Offside This thread is getting far away from the offside issue, but I think the issues are more important and discussion worthy. Iowa had the fortune to have the soccer community involved in the getting high school soccer in the schools, so when the school administrators needed officials, the local soccer referee associations stepped up. The Conferences have negotiated with the local groups to assign and train HS referees. All the top referees in the state, including Terry Vaughn have done high school games. All varsity and JV games have 3 referees assigned, and we try to assign the best officials to the tougher games.
Re: NFHS Offside If the mods want to move and re-title...please do so. I have started to look into this seriously. If we have hundred of games on the weekends in club football that have USSF certified referees who can handle a game for the most part, why are we leaving the HS athelete with absolutely horrible officiating? Yes, weekends v. 4pm starts M-F, but I've seen some of the worst games called on a Saturday morning when you CAN call upon the best refs in the county. The NFHS and the state Athletic Associations should be ashamed of themselves. And I've only watched 25 games so far. R
Re: NFHS Offside But this is, pardon the bad cliche, a double-edged sword. There are coaches and parents who are ignorant of the offside law as well. I did a game where both teams shortened the field by playing offside traps. Basically the game was played between the two outer edges of the center circle thereby creating fast break opportunities galore. That also lines up the defenders with the benches and the fans. So here is what happened: Attacking player is past midfield and into an offside position. The attacker realizes this and runs back and the ball is passed to them at that moment. No defender put the player in an onside position. I pop the flag (obviously DSC), referee blows whistle and the place erupts. The player put himself back "onside." We all know that's a violation and should be called. But yet coach, players and the spectators all see he is "onside" at the "moment the ball is played." At a break, I explain to the coach his player ran back from an offside position. That doesn't matter, he says, it's where he was the moment the ball was played to him. I'm sorry, but that is ignorant. The spectators were at least behind a fence and all were booing incessantly for 30 seconds to a minute. Next one is really good in the same game. Attackers A & B are on a break-away. Attacker A is going for goal and realizes Attacker B is wide open. Attacker B is ahead and the ball gets passed to him. My flag goes up, referee blows whistle and the place now goes berserk. You should have heard the crap being said. However, coach knows I am right, but no one else. Players and many spectators are yelling the following: "He can't be offside if he was onside when the ball was played to the other guy." Finally, a player says (about me), "This AR sucks." I ignore him. I look at the coach and he tells his player to, "Shut up. He was right." Too bad he couldn't tell the spectators. There was another one, but that will make this post too long. Let's just say more ignorant spectators, players and coaches. However, the AD did say it was the correct decision. I will be honest and say this season I relegated myself to HS games. It's mostly due to scheduling. Most referees I work with are like myself. They have both USSF and HS credentials, so I don't have too many complaints about others. I really think that more training is in order for only HS-credentialed referees than a basic one-hour clinic and 100 T/F question test.
Not an offside issue but goes under the NFHS Officiating. How would you handle this situation? Two man system NFHS boys varsity game. Play is going towards one of the goals in the penalty area. Lead referee is in close proximity and makes a strong no call (to sell no penalty kick) on a challenge clearly inside that penalty area (near the penalty spot). Trail referee is a few yards from the midfield line in the other half of play. Trail referee blows his whisltle perhaps a second or two later, moves towards the penalty area and states that he has a foul outside the penalty area. How would you handle this as the lead referee?
I see several options depending on what you saw and your trust and relationship with the trail referee. 1 - Trust that the trail referee saw something that you didn't - since you were focusing on no call situation in the penalty area. Surely there were other players in the general area who may have been fouling each other. Depending on how close to the spot he his by the time he blows, you can either ask what he has or let him take the lead in setting up for a free kick. 2. - You can assume he has his head up his ass, and that the only possible thing he could be calling is your non-call in the penalty area. You could call a push going out or a dive in the box by the attacker, and at least restore justice. 3. - You could meet in the middle, tell him what you saw, ask what he saw, and come to a joint conclusion what the proper restart should be.
I don't want to make this into what the spectators see and what the AR sees type of Thread...I could care less about those decisions....because unless you are the AR in proper position in line with 2nd to last, I will never argue an offside decision... I want this thread to talk about why we allow our HS soccer players in this country to be officiated by folks who have not kept pace with the explosion in the quality of play of these teenagers. They have not kept up with the game, the rules, the level of play. Almsot all of our HS soccer players have played club travel soccer growing up, and they have been officiated by USSF certified referees for almost all of their games. (AYSO, not withstanding). And the elite players have played under a DSC, where the CR is the boss. But, we then get these same elite players, let them enter HS, and treat them to a system of officiating that threatens their safety! Now, this isn't a blanket indictment because I have witnessed over the last two weeks two of the finest officiated games I have ever seen at this level. But, I have also seen three of the worst ever at a high level. Why does the NFHS think the dual is worthy because of safety reasons? Two whistles? Sure, it would work if the referees were moving off the touch lines, but the majority of the games I have witnessed involving the dual, the referees have a rope that tethers them to the touchline, and they don't ever venture onto the playing field. I don't know how you can possibly referee a game from the touchline. I am in the process of formulating a note to the AD of the High School where my daughter attends and plays. All I care about is foul play, and if they can't recognize it, then they shouldn't be anywhere near a pitch that has a fast paced crunching game going on. In 10 years the ability of the players has truly gone up, but we are still using a system designed for a game that was less fast and not as hard nosed. It's time that someone at the state authority level made that determination and got the USSF involved in the refereeing. R
I do a lot of dual games in Iowa - all freshman games. I'm rarely near the touchline except when the ball is near the touchline. I'm also frequently in the opposite half of the field when the ball is in near the far penalty area. We always try to get the fouls right and maybe miss an offside offence or a touchline call. If your referees are tethered to the touchline and 2LD or don't have good foul recognition, then the ADs and administrators need to be hiring better referees. Perhaps if your state or local referee associations/leaders worked with the Schools something could be done. If no one else is interested, I'd start writing letters to your school board, local papers, etc. Do they want to be the next big liability suit for negligence when some kid is crippled because of inadequate supervision/officiating? Why do our schools think they can get by with 2 untrained referees when the rest of the world/country (USSF) think that 3 officials are needed. It's like having your basketball officials sit in the stand with whistles! You have to be close to the action.
I love your line about basketball refs sitting in the stands with whistles.... I will be sure to reference that when I write to my AD. The foul recognition and inability to manage the game from a distance is what is driving me crazy. I have seen more serious injuries in a month then I saw in 10 years of club. Concussions, kneck injuries, knees, legs....
Re: NFHS Offside Huh? If the player got himself back onside at the moment the ball was played to him, how was he offside? He can hang around in an offside position all he wants, as long as no teammate plays the ball to him. Then when he wants to participate in play again, he comes to an onside position. Now the ball is passed to him - all is fine!
I did #3. We restarted with a drop ball. It was against his will, but I thought it was the right thing to do in terms of fairness to the teams. I am looking at the situation trying to decide if there is anything I can do to prevent myself from getting in that situation again, and avoiding the strain between the two officials. The obvious answer may be to have a good pregame covering these types of situations, but what tends to happen is "let's work together" gets construed as "stay the heck out of my area." Which is maybe what I should say when I am working with people I don't know well (which was the case yesterday), or feel shaky about.
Re: NFHS Offside Gary, You are correct. It is the position when the ball is played by a member of the same team. On a side note; when questioned by a less than knowledgable coach or spectators, I've often said, "offside is like pornography, it is difficult to describe; but, I know it when I see it".
Re: NFHS Offside I think a lot of USSF refs don't want to bother with high school if they don't have to; the stupid rule differences, assigning problems, etc. etc.
Re: NFHS Offside Maybe I wasn't clear. A player in an offside position cannot put himself "onside." He saw he was offside, ran back when the ball was played to him. That makes him offside. He was closer to the goal line than the ball when it was played to him, he stepped back collected the ball and that's the infringement.
Re: NFHS Offside I'm having a hard time getting my brain around this one. The attacker saw he was offside and ran back, then the ball was played to him? Then the coach was correct--no offside. Or am I misunderstanding what you said? EDIT: The phone rang as I was finishing this post and it sat for an hour before I submitted it. It sounds like he ran back after the ball was played. Correct?
Re: NFHS Offside OK, like DadOf6 I now get your point. Those "over and back" type of calls are some of the most fun to make, because of the howls you inevitably will hear.