this is demonstrably false henrik laarson does not have headers that can rival the best of cr7's ie header vs roma in the champions league quarter final 2007/08 header vs manchester united champions league quarter final 2012/13 header vs deportivo la coruna 2014/15 (one of the best headers ive personally ever seen,the power he generated from that distance and the placement makes it an exquisite goal) and than there is his header away vs seville from an extremely tight angle in 2015 bottom line is henrik laarson could not rival the best header goals of cr7 but r9 could occasionally pull of passes that could rival some of the all time playmakers(and not just lionel messi but also the 3 untouchable playmakers ie zico,maradona and michel platini) i agree this does not prove that r9 was even remotely comparable at playmaking(consistently)but on his day he could do many phenomenal things(dribbles,passes,all kinds of goals,skills etc) (the pass i was referring to starts at 0:26 and while your at it you might as well watch the whole comp as it only lasts 2 and a half minutes..literally)
are you really trying to compare the role of R9 and lionel messi. R9 is worldy recognized as a true number 9. Messi at his best was recognized as a false 9. and even in recent years he is playing a deeper role. that`s not up for debate. do you want to argue that R9 played the role of a false 9??? and you want to compare a few passes in R9s 2 years when messi is making long range through balls multiple times in every game. messi`s long through ball from the right to left side has been used so often that people are starting to recognize it as a signature move in his game. you don`t need to give nor request comps of recent players. all these games of modern day players are readily available.
I know what a 'heat map' does, in fact, the very term 'heat map' is self-explanatory enough that an expert explanation isn't at all needed. Of course, the people who 'introduced' the heat map apparently need to explain it to abject morons like yourself, who seem to not understand what 'heat map' explicitly stands for. Here are your own words: The statement in bold is ludicrous. A heat map cannot "agree or disagree" with a subjective argument such as the question: Is Messi a playmaker, or is Messi just a withdrawn striker?? How could a heat map possibly agree or disagree with an entirely subjective philosophical argument about the very meaning of playmaking?? If @ko242 thinks that Messi is the playmaker of Barcelona, and on the other hand, @Estel thinks that Messi is not the playmaker of Barcelona -- how could a heat map which is objective and has no feelings, objectively make the decision of what a playmaker is?? A heat map cannot objectively define what a playmaker is, anymore than a computer can define what love is. There is no objective rule, there is no objective definition, to any of the arbitrary semantics that the same Zidane fanboy known as @Estel repeatedly uses against all players not named Zidane. A heat map cannot possibly agree or disagree that Messi is not a playmaker. A heat map explicitly defines the 'heated areas' that Messi occupies throughout the 90 minutes; that is all a heat map explicitly can do. A heat map cannot agree or disagree with subjective philosophical arguments about what playmaking is or what playmaking is not. So again I say: What is it with this pseudo-objectivity that so many CR7 fans totally fail to understand to any real degree?? It is pseudo-objectivity, because you are enough of a moron that you appear to think that a 'heat map' can agree or disagree with entirely subjective philosophical arguments. The fact is, playmakers are not 'objectively' defined by heat maps, playmakers are not exclusively defined by the positions that they occupy, instead, playmakers are exclusively defined by what they do in the positions that they occupy, that is, playmakers are exclusively defined by their actual function in the team, not by the 'heated areas' of the pitch that they occupy the most. How is this in any way confusing or difficult to understand?? Francesco Totti scored more goals when he was past-prime, because Totti was playing as the striker of his club. Totti did not scored as many goals when he was in his prime, because Totti in his prime was the playmaker of Roma. This is not at all surprising if you actually watch Totti play when he was in his prime. A heat map would merely confirm the obvious: prime Totti was not a midfielder, the same way that prime Messi is not a midfielder. But what a heat map will not do, is agree or disagree with a philosophical argument about what is playmaking or what isn't playmaking. Bottom line: you are a moron who doesn't even understand self-explanatory heat maps. The last thing I want to do is change your opinion. Why would I ever want to add an abject moron to my side of the argument? Not at all. My intention is purely to ridicule you, pure and simple. Cheers.
Henrik Larsson's header in the above video can rival ANY header, by ANY player. The fact of the matter is that any player whom is genuinely great at a specific ability, can rival the best abilities of Messi, Ronaldo, etc. The difference is that Messi and Ronaldo do it consistently, whereas the lesser players do it less consistently. But if you cherry pick the best moments, then it will be easy to find Cassano doing a technique that can rival the very best technicians of all time, and you will also easily find that Rui Costa could consistently make passes that would rival any pass of Maradona or Laudrup, etc. Bottom line: you are cherry picking great moments from players whom can occasionally be great at those specific abilities - which is pointless. It doesn't prove anything that isn't already self-evidently obvious. Another great header by a player of more or less average height. Henrik Larsson was a 5'9 player who consistently scored headers that 6'1 guys scored. For a player of that height, Larsson is arguably impossible to beat.
Totally agree, but in my opinion, it's not just that they consistently sound like morons with no clue about the sport, it's the fact that they also ignore the most obvious of facts. Like the fact that no South American nation has won the World Cup since 2002. The World Cup reads as follows: Brazil 1958, Brazil 1962, England 1966, Brazil 1970, West Germany 1974, Argentina 1978, Italy 1982, Argentina 1986, West Germany 1990, Brazil 1994, France 1998, Brazil 2002, Italy 2006, Spain 2010, Germany 2014, and probably another European national team in Russia 2018. So the most a South American nation had gone without winning the WC, was just one WC at a time: England 1966 (played in England), West Germany 1974 (played in Germany), Italy 1982 (played in Spain), West Germany 1990 (played in Italy), France 1998 (played in France). After the 1990s, the World Cup has been an all European tournament, including France vs. Italy 2006, and Spain vs. Holland 2010. Clearly, for whatever the reason, South American national teams are increasingly proving to be incapable of competing against the cream of Europe. This is the situation that Riquelme, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Messi, Neymar, Suarez, found themselves in. This was not the situation that Maradona, Pele, Garrincha, Romario, R9, had on their hands back in the 1950s, the 1960s, the 1970s, the 1980s, and the 1990s. It would be irrational in my opinion, to simplify the argument into, "Messi and Neymar just lack the personality to elevate their national teams... They do it for their clubs, but just lack the personality to translate that into success with their national teams..." That simplification simply cannot explain away the increasing modern disparity in success between Europe and South America. There is something wrong at a systemic level. That disparity is not based on talent alone, but probably is largely based on a disparity in the level of the overall organization. Argentina won the 1978 WC, without Maradona. Argentina did not win the 1982 WC, with Maradona. Argentina won the 1986 WC, with Maradona. Argentina did not win the 1987 CA, with Maradona. Argentina did not win the 1989 CA, with Maradona. (The 1987 CA was played in Argentina, and the 1989 CA was played in Brazil -- so both of those Copa Americas had a special meaning for Argentina. Maradona didn't even played the Final, in either of those Copa Americas.) Argentina did not win the 1990 WC, with Maradona. Argentina won the 1991 CA, without Maradona. Argentina won the 1993 CA, without Maradona. Messi does not play for an Argentina team that can win titles with or without Messi. Argentina has not won a meaningful title since 1993. That's 24 years without winning anything of any meaning. Why is this fact so difficult to accept for the old timers like Maradona and/or Pele?? I'm sick and tired of listening to Maradona and Pele, openly disrespect the current plight in South American football. Instead of trying to offer a helping hand, they openly and willingly and ignorantly make things worse than they already are. It shows not only a lack of education and a lack of intelligence, but most importantly, a consistent lack of empathy in how they relate to the young stars whom are trying hard to fight against what clearly is a systemic disparity that was not a factor pre-2000s. Blaming Messi and Neymar, will only magnify how much of an advantage the Europeans have at this point in time. And the fact that Pele/Maradona are too dumb and/or too proud to understand that at a basic level, is thoroughly embarrassing. It's disappointing to find that heroes of old, actually are quite apathetic as persons.
One difference to note is that in the 1970s, Cruyff was universally considered as a superior player to Gerd Muller. On the other hand, a past-his-prime poacher like Ronaldo is somehow better than Messi. Isn't it a funny thing, that the 'statistics' have created a more religious sport where team results are the be all and end all (when measuring individual performance)?? Gerd Muller was several decades ahead of his time, or so it seems. He would've been the new Pele had he started his career at some point between 2004 and 2006. Gerd Muller would've won the 2014 WC and then several UCLs with a super club, which seems to be enough to get compared to Pele/Maradona these days.
The above is a totally false equivalence. Cristiano ronaldo was never as "limited" as gerd muller until last season Cruyff was a total footballer during 71 to 74 while gerd muller was the most devastating penalty area goalscorer of all time C.Ronaldo on the other hand was a complete forward in 2013/14 who was routinely scoring goals out of nothing situations Poachers do not pick the ball up 20 to 30 yards from goal dribble past 2 to 3 players and put the ball at the back of the net Poachers don't routinely score from 25+ yards(as cr7 has done with relative consistency post 2013) Cristianos all round game was until 2015/16 several times better than gerd muller For example: In la liga 2014/15 ronaldo created at least a dozen more goal chances than robert lewandowski has done in any season in his career and more than suarez has done in any single season with Barcelona Cristiano ronaldo has led in assists for real madrid in every single season since 13/14 (A side that has so many creative wing backs, midfielders,wingers forwards ie modric,Gareth bale,kroos,Rodriguez,Marcelo,carvajal etc) Ronaldo has managed to be real madrids top scorer every season,lead in assists and finish extremely high in created goal chances even when compared to world class playmakers Also you exaggerate messis selflessness and ability to create. Messi was essentially a striker for Barcelona in the champions league 16/17 and the sole beneficiary of neymars playmaking Neymar registered a all time record 9 assists in a single cl season 7 of which were scored by messi Messis statistical contribution was besides scoring poached goals in the 16/17 cl season practically non existent He made 1 assist compared to ronaldos 7 in the champions league and scored 10 open play goals compared to 12 by ronaldo A so called elite attacking midfielder or "withdrawn foward" should not finish so low in the assists chart Ronaldo was always heavily involved in the build up play of his goals and his teammates up until late 2014 From the 2nd half of 14/15 till now his game has significantly regressed but still not enough that I would categorize him as a player who rarely contributes beyond scoring
No you don't. The fact that you are still trying to make a nonsensical interpretation says it all, unless if it's a combination of lunacy and drug abuse. Damn you are thick, or you are just taking a piss. Unless if it is just a case of misusing English words there is nothing subjective or philosophical with a statetement like; "however, messi was literally played as an 'attacking midfielder' this season in a 3-3-1-3 system..." Any logical person will know and agree that the heat map will either support or refute the above statement. I.e. It will either confirm that indeed Messi played as an attacking midfielder or it will show otherwise. E.g. If I say CR7 spends most of the time playing as a winger and the heat map shows that he actually spends majority of the time next to Benzema all that says is that my perception is not the same with reality as that heat map is a representation of the actual position of the said player during the actual game. Simple as that. The fact that you are talking about "heat map inability to define a playmaker" while the purpose of the heat map is to show the area where a player spent most of his time while in control of the ball shows you actually don't know what you are refuting. Reality is you just incapable of ridiculing anyone here. You are irrational, have zero ability to make any structured and focused argument without mixing it with either Zidane/CR7. As a matter of fact I will like to see anywhere were you were able to ridicule me, except that time when it looked like you didn't take your pills and the mods ended up banning you from the forum.
This is so incredibly stupid. This "trend" of 3 World Cups in a row wouldn't even exist if Messi could have hit an empty net against Germany in Brazil. The current Argentina side has a ridiculous amount of talent and is probably the second most talented team in the world behind Germany. The idea that they couldn't possibly win a trophy without Messi is absolutely ludicrous since they've almost won several with him doing absolutely nothing. Here are Argentina's results in their biggest games with Messi: World Cup final vs. Germany: 0 goals and 0 assists for Messi (0-1 loss in extra time) World Cup semifinal vs. Netherlands: 0 goals and 0 assists for Messi (0-0 draw in extra time, advanced on penalties) Copa America final vs. Chile: 0 goals and 0 assists for Messi (0-0 draw in extra time, lost on penalties) Copa America Centenario final vs. Chile: 0 goals and 0 assists for Messi (0-0 draw in extra time, lost on penalties) Copa America final vs. Brazil: 0 goals and 0 assists for Messi (0-3 loss) World Cup quarterfinal vs. Belgium: 0 goals and 0 assists for Messi (1-0 win) World Cup quarterfinal vs. Germany: 0 goals and 0 assists for Messi (0-4 loss) That's the 750 biggest minutes of Messi's international career in which he could produce not one single goal or assist to help his team, and yet the defense carried them to 3 consecutive finals anyway producing 5 clean sheets in 7 matches in regulation play. Obviously the team had the talent to win any trophy with even the slightest bit of production from their star. Unfortunately, he's a complete non-factor EVERY SINGLE TIME the lights shine brightest. The idea that anyone could look at that and try to blame the team around Messi but not Messi himself is just beyond nonsensical to me.
i agree with your point 100%. but if i had to take a guess, it would be that pele and maradona are trying to hold on to their titles as the best players on the game and will say anything they can to tarnish anyone else`s name. i`m pretty sure if CR7 was challenging maradona`s spot as the greatest player in the game, than he would come up with an excuse like `ronaldo puts me to sleep all game, then once in a blue moon he scores a goal from 6 yds out`. it`s the same reason that pele said that `Neymar is better than Messi`before Neymar had even made an impact in europe, and that was if Neymar was even in europe at the time.
Well that only makes it worse. It means that it's not a case of Maradona/Pele being stupid and ignorant to the facts, but instead, it's a case of Maradona/Pele being greedy, manipulative, and lying through their teeth. In any case, both of them are overrated assholes who won World Cups with teams that could win with or without Maradona/Pele.
of all the so called talent that Argentina have please give me the list of players that have performed for argentina. and i think everybody knows that aguero and higuain are not in that list. tevez hasn`t played for argentina in ages. i have no clue why banega or pastore do not play over that mediocre midfielder from the argentinian league, i guess (not mascherano the other one). and who the hell does argentina have as outside backs??? rojo, an aging zabeleta??? as bad as argentina are it is a miracle that they have even made 3 finals. especially, when you include the fact that argentina is in such trouble for qualifying for the WC 18 because of messi`s absence for a number of games. so much for the 2nd most talented team in the world. di maria plays well but gets injured before the semifinals. now they have dybala who seems like a good prospect. 2nd most talented team based on what???? you mean the same way that belgium has been favorites to win the WC14 and Euro16??? so much for talent. you can have all the talent you want but if you have players like hazard, lukaku, de bruyne, dembele, etc. who show nothing at the NT level then they are all useless. and talent means nothing. it`s purely potential and nothing else.
I wouldn't say it's a miracle they made CA finals. If you avoid certain teams, you can get to the final with some fairly average opposition. In the Centenario they played Venezuela and then the US.
Belgium is nothing like Argentina. A few years back in 2014 argentina had one of the most talented sides of at least the last 25 years Di maria was then the joint best orthodox winger in Europe(with robben) Higuian and aguero both top 5 strikers in Europe Mascherano the best dm And messi is messi I have personally never seen such a potent attack on any national team side.the fact that you could claimthey are a side who haven't fulfilled they're potential is really ridiculous They reached 3 major finals in a 4 year span.had they won all 3 games they would be mentioned in the same breadth as spain 08/12 and brazil 98/02(there are very fine margins that seperate great nt sides from legendary ones) Belguim is a side filled with world class talent who are completely unproven at the highest level Just what the hell has hazard and de bruynne achieved in the champions league and has romelu lukaku ever turned up in a single match against a big side in the premier league?
When Maradona was on Argentina's national team they had an exceptional manager and they had a great supporting cast. They could score real fast and often. Today they don't have that great supporting cast. Messi is a tremendous player, but he does not have the players that Diego had. If he did they would be unstoppable.
Sure, maybe you know more then me. During that time I lived in Argentina for three years. Ever seen Diego train in that wooden box? Spend anther three years in Germany. Have a grand child living there. I have an apartment in Berlin. In my life spent years in Italy. I thought Dr.Bilardo was a great manager. Well your the expert I guess.
I knew Brazil had a good chance to lose in Brazil to a team like Germany. Maybe, that didn't happen either. Well at least the police was there to kill all the glue sniffers. The local store owners hired the police to kill those kids. Hit squads of cops.
Hahaha. Yeah, Angel Di Maria is arguably a good NT player, but you can count him out when the Semi Final comes (because Di Maria always gets injured just before the difficult games). Higuaín and Aguero are good club players, but not good NT players. Take out Di Maria, Aguero, and Higuaín - and what does Messi have on the offensive end (when the Semi Finals come)?? Argentina is an overrated national team, it has not won anything meaningful since 1993. Is there any other national team in the world, that has not won anything since 1993, but that somehow always gets credited as a 'great' national team?? Portugal WITHOUT RONALDO literally did something that Argentina has not done since 1993, but apparently Messi is surrounded by a 'great' Argentina national team. Just goes to show what a great job the Cristiano Ronaldo machine has done, depicting Messi's Argentina as the 'Goliath' to Cristiano Ronaldo's Portugal. What a crock of sh*t. Anyways... When looking at the context correctly: Maradona does appear to have had the better national team players surrounding him, that certainly appears to be true for Argentina 1986. People forget how good Burruchaga and Valdano were at that particular tournament, on the basis of the standards of that particular time/era.
Unironically moronic, as usual. 1. The 'trend' of 2 World Cups in a row, already was UNPRECEDENTED... Was Messi also single-handedly to blame for the 2010 World Cup?? Was Messi also single-handedly to blame for the fact that the 2006 World Cup was another Euro Final?? Or was Messi also to blame for the fact that the 2010 World Cup was another Euro Final?? 2. Higuaín failed to score 2 clear-cut chances, and Messi failed to score one clear-cut chance, so naturally Messi is the single biggest reason as to why Argentina did not win the World Cup Final. Great analysis. Quick question: do you also think that Portugal's Eder is the biggest single reason as to why Portugal won Euro 2016?? 3. If Messi scores a goal, Germany would definitely not have scored ANY goals... How do you just recklessly assume that Germany couldn't have possibly scored ONE single goal?? I would understand your position if Messi's goal was a 2-0 goal, but a 1-0 goal does not secure a victory. As such, your position is idiotic, as usual.
please. tell me how aguero and higuain have showed up for argentina in any tournament!!! you can look anywhere on the web, ask any professional pundit, and you will not find a single good thing said about the performances of aguero and higuain in any national tournament. even at club level,aguero has been far from impressive in champions league. neither higuain nor ageuro are players known for showing up in big games at club level against the best teams, although higuain has a far better case than aguero. aguero can`t even make regular appearances for his national team, so poor he has been at that level. yes, di maria has been good. but it doesn`t do the team much good if he is unavailable in the semi-final and/or final. yes, mascherano has played his part, but i am talking about offensively. please, @carlito86, tell me 1 tournament where you can honestly say that higuain or aguero played better than average in any national team tournament. you like many other people get fixated on judging things for how you think they should be instead of judging things on how they actually are. you are just like the mass media who was saying that portugal was a 1 man team, even when it was clear throughout the Euro 2016, that portugal was the farthest thing from a 1 man team. and the reason people like yourself make such comments is because you refuse to look at things for how they actually are.
this current argentianian team??? most potent attacking side???!!! are you f**** kidding me????!!!! you mean apart from the 58 brazli, 79 brazil, 82 brazil, 74 holland, 74 germany, 2010 spain, 84 france, 2014 germany, etc., etc.. when exactly did you start watching this game????? fine margins??? if by fine margins, you mean the small things that make the world of a difference. there is a monstrous difference between getting to the finals 3 years in a row and winning the finals 3 years in a row. if higuain and aguero would have been marginally good, then that could have been the difference. hazard??? unproven at the highest level???? and aguero has somehow proven something at the highest level??? the fact is, aguero and hazard have played in the same league for a number of years now, and hazard has 2 league titles to his name. within that time span from 12-17, i would bet money, that the vast majority of people would put hazard over aguero. especially when you consider the fact that hazard has been closer and is closer to winning the WPOY then aguero has ever been. and don`t mention champions league because aguero has no imprint at all, in terms of his affect in CL, besides that one group stage performance against bayern munich, in addition for failing to get out of the group stage more than once! and failing to make any impressions in any knockout stage match