We've never discussed UEFA awards! The discussion has always been on Ballon d'Or which of course has now been cut into 2 since last year divorce. Hopefully you aren't going to pretend this award hasn't been heavily influenced by performances in the CL.
If Juve win and Higuaín scores at least one goal in Cardiff, his goal total will be about equal to Ronaldo's. In this scenario, Higuaín will have also scored in the semifinals and finals on a treble winning team. To me there is no way to justify Ronaldo unless he wins the CL at which point he would be the obvious candidate. Messi can't really claim it in a year that Barca were poor by their standards. He also failed to score against Juve in 180 minutes.
CL performance is huge if your team actually wins it. If they don't then I think it becomes important to put up big numbers in all competitions throughout 2017.
Too bad the likelihood of this happening is marginal. He literally became a mention in this thread purely from his game vs. Monaco and, while there isn't any more he could have done in that performance, what was learned by the end of the tie was that Juve were in control the entire time. Monaco, whose attack has broken all sorts of records this season, needed to score goals in Turin. They ended up with 2 Shots on Target vs. 6 from Juventus. For someone that thought so highly of this Monaco side, I don't think I ever watched a less competitive semi-final in years, maybe since Lyon was there. Not to rain on his achievement but, given his historical performances in these types of games, I firmly believe that, given the extent to which Juve controlled the tie, if it wasn't him, it'd be someone else scoring, and given he's the striker it'll likely be him. So now that we got that never-will-happen situation out of the way, your second paragraph is as @DazerII pointed out, reminiscent of what happened in 2013 when Bayern won the CL, and is something I wrote many times on here. If I recall correctly, but could be wrong, it was initially pushed by Rummenigge and the like, that Ribery is the primary representative for Bayern's success, and from there general public opinion just seemed to.... go with it. Even Ribery started to believe it himself. In reality, however, he wasn't even the best player, or near best, in the latter stages of the CL or any major point of the season for that matter. I had posts showing numerous player ratings after these games. His performances had nothing more of note than other players like Robben. Why? Because that entire team played well. They had no Ronaldo. They had no Messi. Ribery for the Ballon was a creation and manipulation, well crafted. The same thing is clearly being tried out here. Griezmann stating "Juventus should win so Buffon can win the Ballon D'or", lol Not If Juventus win, then Buffon should win the Ballon. It's that he wants Juventus to win just because he wants Buffon to win. And he's made this publicly, funny it comes in a year he isn't a contender. Pique seems to share the same sentiment, funny again that it's in a year where Messi isn't favorite. And these types of sentiment build, moving farther and farther from fundamental reality, which is that void of any emotional context or a performance of historic proportions in the final, there would be no rankings ever placing Buffon as the Ballon D'Or Winner.
This season is already 'done and dusted' before the UCL Final - why? Because Ronaldo won La Liga. Ronaldo 2016/17 Liga was arguably not even as good as Higuaín 2009/10 Liga, but of course Ronaldo's myth is a thing of beauty for himself and his fans - everything he does is special, regardless of whatever that might be. Pichichi. Golden boot. La Liga without even being the 4th best player in his own team. Euro without playing the Final (against the only traditional team that Portugal faced). Whatever Ronaldo achieves gets magnified to "only Messi can compare" level, and whatever he doesn't achieve gets easily excused by whatever convenient so-called 'argument.' Not Messi, not Maradona, not Pele, and not Cruyff, would be able to realistically compete against a player who merely needs to score goals against inferior opponents (and with the help of the referee if the going gets tough enough). Because all of Messi, Maradona, Pele, and Cruyff, would be required to score more or less as many goals as Ronaldo, AND also do a lot more dribbling and a lot more playmaking than Ronaldo, AND also win more team titles than Ronaldo. On the other hand, Ronaldo doesn't even need team titles, as his 2013 Ballon d'Or proves. Scoring goals in 'big games' against vastly inferior teams such as Wolfsburg 2015/16 or Atletico Madrid 2016/17, is all Ronaldo needs to compete against the likes of Messi, Maradona, Pele, or Cruyff.
It's so clear when you discuss things that you didn't actually, personally see or pay attention to at the time and need to defer to research to reach your conclusions on them. I mean, you're knowledgeable on 2009/2010 La Liga but didn't know Ronaldo won La Liga in 2012? Hmmm. And this is the essence of what is generally wrong and bizarre in your line of thinking sometimes regarding CR7. Your logic in the bolded goes as follows: 1) 'This season is already 'done and dusted' before the UCL Final' Not remotely true, otherwise this thread wouldn't be in its 43rd page of debate. So this is the initial step in your thinking. What you're taking issue with is that Ronaldo is rightly favorite to win right now. And the kicker, is that you then create some falsehood, take it as truth, and get mad at the injustice of it, even though it isn't true. Nothing is done and dusted, even if he's the currently big favorite. 2) 'why? Because Ronaldo won La Liga. Ronaldo 2016/17 Liga was arguably not even as good as Higuaín 2009/10 Liga, ' Again, it is not true that this season is 'done and dusted', he is the favorite. You have issue with this fact because, according to you, it is because he won La Liga. See, I honestly don't know whether you're intentionally disingenuous or really poor at analysis because if you really think that Ronaldo's Champions League performances didn't factor into this general public perception of him that you clearly currently detest then I'm not sure what to say to you either way. You then take this falsehood, that Ronaldo's stature in the current race is purely on La Liga, and then try to downplay him even further by trying to downplay Ronaldo's season because his La Liga was arguably on par with a great La Liga Higuain had. Wow, weird, if they were both just as good then maybe Higuain should have won the Ballon D'or in 2010? Oh wait, he didn't because, while he had a great individual season, Real Madrid didn't win the league so you are not comparing apples to apples no matter how much you try to display it that way. Did you forget, not know or intentionally leave out the fact that team trophies are usually pretty important in these awards? Oh, and Higuain also didn't do anything of note in that one huge tournament you seem to be unaware about, called the Champions League. Yet here you are trying to actually paint some alternate reality where, if CR7 wins a Ballon D'or, then 2008/2009 Higuain would have been just as deserving. You should maybe try to move away from just Wikipedia for your information.
Everybody knows that Real Madrid won the 2011/12 La Liga. Forgetting about it when - for one instance - your mind isn't fully on Bigsoccer, but rather on actual real life, does not make for a convincing argument does it?? And nonetheless, winning as many Liga titles as Atletico Madrid, is failure when you play for Real Madrid. Obviously, the 2017 Liga changes that a good deal, but then again, Real Madrid would've also won La Liga 2017 with Higuaín instead of Ronaldo. Individually, it isn't impressive that the worse Ronaldo gets, the more successful Real Madrid is. Of course, the propaganda machine behind Ronaldo has worked night and day, to create the current delusion of, "Ronaldo is actually a better player now." LMAO that's a fallacy and a double standard. I do not think the Ballon d'Or is 'done and dusted' already. I sarcastically repeated the delusional sentiments of @ Zahzah who believes that Ronaldo already has 'sealed' the award. Sarcasm... And it was extremely obvious at that... The essence of what is generally wrong and bizarre in your line of thinking most-of-the-time regarding my opinion, is that you consistently display a talent for finding the most flaccid misinterpretations that you then routinely present as proper arguments. I was making fun of the fact that Ronaldo fans are generally delusional enough that many of them already go on about how Ronaldo has 'sealed' the 2017 Ballon d'Or. Again, all of the above is rendered as needless and pointless, due to the fact that you missed what obviously was sarcasm. And for the record: Ronaldo's Champions League performances being a factor in what is a delusion, does not make me poor at analysis nor does it make me intentionally disingenuous. He is the favorite - that also is my opinion. But indeed, I was making fun of the fact that so many Ronaldo fans believe that Ronaldo has it 'in the bag' already before the Final, referencing La Liga as a big factor. 1. Messi 2013 was great in several 'big games' in the Champions League. 2. Messi 2013 won La Liga, but didn't win the Champions League. 3. Messi 2013 was a tier above Ronaldo 2017, overall at any competition. 4. Messi 2013 did not win the Ballon d'Or. Ronaldo won the 2013 Ballon d'Or, and Ronaldo 2013 won it with a performance that was not better than Messi 2017. Basically, many Ronaldo fans are stating that, already before the UCL Final, Ronaldo's Champions League was great enough that, added to La Liga, it has already 'sealed the deal' for Ronaldo. I made fun of the obvious double standard at play here, and I obviously used sarcasm when making fun of said fallacy, and I obviously mentioned Higuaín as a La Liga reference (not as a direct overall reference), and ironically enough, you with your 'great at analysis' intelligence missed what was a perfectly obvious argument. The so-called 'falsehood' is nothing but your own deliberate or just stupid misinterpretation of what was obvious sarcasm. To call it a 'falsehood' is a microcosm of what makes you such an unpleasant character. You truly believe that your one-sided perception of everything that you think might marginally or substantially relate to CR7, must be the truth, and everything else a 'falsehood' by the haters alike. And speaking about falsehoods, your misperception that I equated Higuaín 2009/10 Liga and Champions League, to Ronaldo 2016/17 Liga and Champions League; at no point did I even began to imply that I was comparing the overall seasons. I compared Liga Higuaín vs. Liga Ronaldo, because I was making fun of the specific fact that so many Ronaldo fans actually believe that La Liga 2016/17 'sealed the deal' when in fact it shouldn't even be an argument, given the fact that Messi never gets any credit for La Liga. Hence why Higuaín was mentioned specifically as a La Liga reference, because Higuaín 2009/10 was in all likelihood an improvement on Ronaldo 2016/17 as far as Liga performance is concerned. Higuaín was obviously a Liga reference, that had obviously nothing to do with the Champions League. How is this even remotely confusing if your unfounded animosity towards me isn't accounted for?? As for Higuaín: Higuaín played for a Real Madrid team that could win La Liga with 4 players not named Ronaldo as 'team of the tournament' players, and with Ronaldo himself not deemed good enough to be included into the team of the tournament. Higuaín 2009/10 also scored a lot more open-play goals (having not taken any penalty kicks himself), having played less minutes than Ronaldo 2016/17, and having enjoyed far inferior service to the 'caviar' that was served to Ronaldo 2016/17. Maybe had Higuaín enjoyed the perks of playing for the best team in the world, he certainly could've scored 'big goals' against clearly inferior opponents such as Atletico Madrid 2016/17 (OVERRATED) and incomplete Bayern Munich (OVERRATED) - precisely the type of thing that Higuaín 2009/10 was amazing at. Team trophies are in fact usually not an important variable in these Ronaldo d'Or awards. Not when Wesley Sneijder is in within a realistic shout, but then finished behind Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta. Not when Ribery also is within a realistic shout, but then finishes behind Ronaldo and Messi. Not when Xavi or Iniesta win 2 Euros and a World Cup in consecutive fashion. Team results only ever seem to work for Ronaldo. Messi winning La Liga is entirely pointless to the award, as 2012 demonstrated. Bottom line: had Ronaldo 2012 won the Champions League, Messi 2012 probably wouldn't have won the Ballon d'Or. Messi only ever wins the Ballon d'Or when Ronaldo does not win the Champions League. (Of course, Ronadlo 2013 did win the Ballon d'Or without winning one single trophy, not even the Copa del Rey to show for himself.) Your statement is demonstrably false, and further demonstrates how biased you are. No alternative reality at all. I obviously used obvious sarcasm, to make fun of how delusional Ronaldo fans are, that so many of them actually believe that La Liga 2017 has 'sealed the deal' for Ronaldo already. Higuaín 2009/10 is not remotely related to the Champions League, but was an obvious La Liga reference to compare against Ronaldo's most recent La Liga. This is perfectly self-evident to anybody who isn't looking for misinterpretations of perfectly obvious sarcasm and/or perfectly obvious references. You should maybe try to decrease your unfounded fixation on me - it honestly is starting to get disturbing, the degree to which you see misinterpretations in every single opinion or humor I dare voice, every single time you find the way of constructing misinterpretations that would or could allow you to needlessly insult me. In this forum, I rarely ever see Messi fans get this nasty. With Ronaldo fans it very much is the standard, e.g. benficafan3, dazer, carlito, robnycus, zahzah - all very unpleasant one-sided characters/personalities.
EDIT: As for Higuaín: Higuaín did not played for a Real Madrid team that could win La Liga with 4 players not named Ronaldo as 'team of the tournament' players, and with Ronaldo himself not deemed good enough to be included into the team of the tournament. Higuaín 2009/10 also scored a lot more open-play goals (having not taken any penalty kicks himself), having played less minutes than Ronaldo 2016/17, and having enjoyed far inferior service to the 'caviar' that was served to Ronaldo 2016/17.
How do you know this? Who is running this propaganda, and can you provide evidence? Who are these Ronaldo fans you keep referring to? Are you sure you are not the one who has one-sided perception? What do you actually mean here. At what stage did these teams become overrated, after he scored against them or they've been overrated for a while. Are you implying Ronaldo is the reason for Sneijder not winning 2010 Ballon d'Or as it sounds like he's the only one you are blaming? Is he also to be blamed for Xavi and Iniesta not winning it in either 2010 or 2012? This Ribery thing that he had realistic chance is a myth. He was chosen out of the team that won the treble but his performance was nowhere near being Ballon d'Or winner. You are delusional. If you were to focus on writing propaganda book about either Ronaldo or Zidane you'll be on page 1000 repeating the same nonsense on each chapter. People talk about Buffon's candidacy and as usual you write a whole wall just talking about one player...CR7. Have you ever gone to any length criticising any player not named CR or Zidane? It will be refreshing if one day you can just start commenting about Arsenal ("your favourite team") and let people know how you feel about performance of the likes of Ozil, Welbeck, etc.
Are you really this willfully ignorant that you can't see the difference here? The performance in big matches is the key. Getting it done when it matters most on the biggest stage is a huge factor in winning individual trophies, and it's a factor that you ignore since it's Messi's biggest weakness. KO stage Champions League goals: Messi 2013: 3 (1 after R16) Ronaldo 2013: 6 (4 after R16) Messi 2017: 1 (0 after R16) Ronaldo 2017: 8 (8 after R16) Crazy that scoring big goals in the biggest games that lead your team toward the biggest trophy might matter for winning an individual award, right? No it's probably just "Ronaldo bias" never mind that he's probably the most hated and disrespected great athlete ever except for LeBron his first year in Miami, and that Messi gets fawned over and apologized for by the media to an incredible extent.
I make no claim in knowing the future or care to. I have no idea what will happen on June 3rd. With that said, everything is up for grabs especially individually. In this particular year where there hasn't been one dominant player, a CL winner should strongly merit the balon. The obvious candidate for Real is Ronaldo if Madrid win. If Juve win: If Higuaín scores, he deserves it since he will have scored in both the semis and finals to go along with being named Juve's player of the year. His numbers are about the same as Ronaldo's. If Higuaín does not score and Juve win narrowly in a lower scoring match, Buffon should take the award for representing Juve's entire defensive effort. They have allowed the fewest goals per match in all of Europe and in this scenario will end up as the best defense in the CL. The only way Ronaldo wins the award after a Madrid loss is if he has an incredible individual effort in Cardiff yet Real manage not to win. Think about how weird it would look for Ronaldo to take the award if Real lose. In this case, he ends up winning one trophy compared to Higuaín/Buffon's treble, scores as many goals as Juve's leading scorer while not being La Liga's leading scorer, and has a subdued final, it would be really odd for him to claim it. Again I have no idea what will happen in a week's time, but the balon should be very much in play. It will be interesting to see if Ronaldo or Higuaín can manage a good finals performance since neither have played very well in them.
Nice to see Buffon is getting some real traction. http://www.goal.com/en/news/1716/ch...onaldo-favourite-to-win-ballon-dor-but-buffon As for odds - massive Buffon jump who is now not that far off of CR7, Messi drops out of contention, Alves gets accolades for his semi performances: SKY SPORTS: Ronaldo 1/3 Buffon 3/1 Messi 5/1 Dani Alves 18/1 Everyone else is a pipedream. I'm starting to think Buffon winning isn't that implausible, especially given the award has split and journalist may very much like to change the narrative. All in all seems like we'll get a top three Balon d'Or goalkeeper for the first time in years..
I know we've covered this before on the thread lol, but sort of strange that everyone else is a pipedream in what should still be primarily an annual award and an individual performance award. I feel like if the award was viewed differently someone like Eden Hazard shouldn't be out of contention yet (even if the whole season is considered to an extent as well as the beginning of the next one; although yes not playing CL football at all in this season which ends within the year would be problematic, especially in this day and age, even if it gives an 'excuse' in terms of not being knocked out early while failing to come up with the goods in a particular match-up). Maybe he's not absolutely out of it yet (everything depends on the voters who can change their minds and even criteria on a whim I suppose) but surely he would need to start/continue from now with a great FA Cup Final performance. After that, outdoing Messi and others over the opening months of next season? Man of the Match in a great Classico if he signs for Real Madrid? Knocking a big team out of the CL group stages with brilliant goals/assists if he stays at Chelsea? It seems a stretch I know! Maybe someone like that would also rely on a rubbish CL Final with Ronaldo and Higuain not only being peripheral but also missing open goals and penalties, while Buffon flaps at a cross to hand Real a goal but Juve still win on penalties!!
Hazard has 17 goals and 3 assists in a season where the EPL sides are doing nothing over note internationally. Dybala has 18 goals and 7 assists. Ronaldo 36 goals and Higuaín 32 (one extra match to play) have to be ahead of him. If Juve win the treble with the best defense in Europe and one of Europe's top goal scores and don't receive the balon then it seems a little off.
This page says 5 assists in PL only, although I'd agree that still seems a bit on the low side. He's not the striker or expected main scorer in his team though, and if we change the statistical approach and look only at average ratings suddenly his 'stats' are up with the best. Basically he's generally been playing very well, but yeah there were still quite a few conditions I added and they may seem unlikely! As long as we haven't entered a time when only CL winners can win the award it's ok I guess, as it is an individual award and sometimes a team can just excel and have huge success without containing the best or even best performing players in the whole world. If we could retrospectively take 1979's award off Keegan and give it to a Forest player maybe I'd agree with you though haha! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/top-scorers Sanchez and after his late rush Kane stack up better with stats though to be fair as you can see (but not the ratings, and yeah Hazard's goal total is good for a player in his role undoubtedly). Part of what I'm saying though is we're only half-way through the judging period supposedly, so if it's turned into a seasonal award maybe we should have it made official (then of course conclusions ruling out various players with out the seasonal CV at this stage would make sense I understand....and I guess they still do if accepting CL means everything and stats have to be super impressive too).
The issue with Juventus is much like it was with Inter or Bayern. Who is the hero? One match its Dani Alves, another its Higuain, another its Dybala, probably the most consistent leader is Buffon, but he's a goalie... Who is the star performer?
I think at the very least the player needs to have participated in the CL with it being the highest quality competition on the planet. It's difficult to consider an EPL candidate since none performed at an elite level in the CL or didn't take part in the competition at all. This makes it more difficult to assess their year as a result. Hazard would need Ronaldo, Higuaín, Buffon, and Dybala to flop very hard in the final. Even then he should have little to know chance because his domestic form at best is only comparable to those mentioned.
In the CL it's been spread around. In the league and cup, it's been Higuaín or Buffon. Higuaín has been immense. Without him, Juve don't win the title given how many match winning goals he has scored. He has 32 goals with two matches to play. All it would take is for him to score in the CL final to then deservedly be seen as Juve's key performer in that competition as well.
Yeah, I see what you're saying (although don't necessarily take back my thoughts from before). The basic stats do miss other 'stats' like pre-assists (possibly the key instigation of goals) and as was pointed out for Messi by eg Bada Bing (not that Messi's basic stats were ever lacking really!) participation in build up of goals he scores and individual goals (plus quality chances created that sometimes should be assists but don't end as such although those ought to balance out to some extent in a top team). This video helps illustrate some of those things (albeit not in calendar year 2017 anyway!) - not the most viewable but guess they have to be made like that to not be removed: I did suggest he'd have to clearly outperform Messi and suchlike at the start of next season too of course, but without just trying tio be a nuisance was just offering another possible view about how these things could possibly be decided (wheras the prevailing view seems to be top level team success is becoming a pre-requisite although I do see the reasons - a domestic double in a top league wouldn't be bad of course, in a 'better' league than Juve play in still really, but Juve's success in Europe does count for a lot of course yes). Anyway we'll see how he does today starting in a few minutes! Without a great performance to clinch a double I'd probably agree it looks very unlikely even now with 6 months to go!
I appreciate you trying to add something new to this rehashed discussion @PDG1978 but frankly don't think Hazard has any place in this conversation whatsoever. In no universe would the player to end CR7/Messi's Ballon dominance a player who didn't even play the toughest competition in Europe and consequently had a less demanding season. Having less games to play, particularly as demanding as the Champions League, is an advantage and in this case a clearly unfair one. The mere fact that this advantage of not playing in Europe this season derives largely from Hazard having been beyond piss poor, by any estimation, the season prior makes it even more silly to think about. When you also factor in that the strength of the top teams in England this season seemed to be clearly not where it has been in prior years, Hazard shouldn't be anywhere near the list, even though I see where you are coming from.
Hazard has played 49 games this season (incl. national team games), incl. the FA Cup final that is underway. Cristiano has 48 games in total. While your point is a valid one, in terms of "toughness", "fatigue" or "hardness" over a full year there are also some things in favor of the EPL as said by CR7 himself. Although when he said most of those comments, in 2009 to 2011, there's a case to be made the EPL top sides were better as they are today (relative to the very best of Europe). I'll not spell that overused narrative out and it's also true that Hazard played of course not all games in both domestic cup tournaments. Whether say Bate Borisov is tougher as Burnley is also unclear but that's modern football.
I understand what you're trying to say and know you get my point but Ronaldo was also purposely rested in a multiple games and isn't the only person Hazard would be competing with. That point is secondary however to the fact that Hazard didn't even play in the CL. You don't need to win it to get the Ballon but you damn well need to at least play in it. How can you be considered the best player in the world for the season when you didn't even compete against the best players in the world over the course of the season?
Wow, and he didn't even win the EPL Player of the season right? Isn't considered the best player in the EPL but should be considered for the Ballon? Let's just stop now.
LOL Eden Hazard! Get real people! Ronaldo has almost as many goals just against Atletico and Bayern as Hazard has the whole season. It's a ludicrous comparison.