Next Ballon d'Or winner that isn't CR7 or LM10 (and when)?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by BocaFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    @carlito86 you're blatantly lying yet again, Pepe was sent off around the 60th minute, not the 44th second. I don't know if you watched the match back then but Madrid went in it as 'spoilers' (to borrow a boxing term), they played Pepe in midfield alongside Diarra and Alonso and it was a foul filled match. Again, I don't know if you watched the match at the time or even in hindsight, or read the headlines the day after. Messi was sublime, against a top quality opponent who came with one goal - to stifle him. The extreme revisionism makes you seem very disingenuous. Again vs Bayern Munich, while it is true they missed a number of players, they were at the time recognised as having the deepest squad in all of club football - and no, Robben, Ribery and Alaba were not their best three players. While Robben could be recognised as such, Neuer, Boateng, Lewandowski were the closest to him. And while the revisionism is strong, prior to the match Messi was supposedly going up against the then best keeper in the world and best centre back in the world, he humiliated both. As has also been mentioned, the match had an ebb and flow about it, it was back and forth up until around the 70th-75th minute. Bayern missing all those wingers made them pack the area of the pitch Messi drifts into with Alonso, Thiago, Schweinsteiger, Lahm... so while it had an effect on Bayern's attack and gave Alves freedom to overlap untracked, I don't see how it affected Messi.

    While we are revising history
    Ronaldo vs Barca 2008 (didn't score)
    Ronaldo vs Arsenal 2009 (Almunia, Djourou, Gibbs says it all)
    Ronaldo vs Barcelona 2011 (didn't score)
    Ronaldo vs Bayern 2012 (if Pep's 2015 Bayern are poor, this one with Badstuber can't be elite)
    Ronaldo vs Dortmund 2013 (not elite, lost anyway)
    Ronaldo vs Bayern 2014 (slightly overrated, tactically naive side)
    Ronaldo vs Juve 2015 (washed up Pirlo that was let go thereafter, Vidal carrying the WC14 injury throughout the season, Pogba just not himself since the injury vs Dortmund)
    Ronaldo vs Bayern 2016 (red cards in both legs for Bayern, offside goals and so on)
    Ronaldo vs Atletico 2017 (no Gimenez and Juanfran, a young left footed centre back at right back, and crucially not the elite Atletico of 2013-16)
    Ronaldo vs Bayern 2018 (didn't score)

    We can do this for every single player in history if we choose to use our time that way.
     
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  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #6502 carlito86, Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    You went to some effort to defend a hopeless case

    Robben 14/15 was Bayern Munich’s best player and nobody was remotely close to his level and that includes lewandowski.
    DBS calcio+whoscored+Ballon D’Or rankings list him as Bayern Munichs best performer and I might add by a clear margin
    This is beyond doubt so Bayern Munich did indeed play without their best player


    Really the defence you’ve attempted to muster is flimsy at best
    Correct me if I’m wrong:
    Manuel Neuer was supposedly the best keeper in the world when Messi faced him in 2015
    Yet there is no mention of this when you attempt to play down Bayern Munich 2014
    The only year Neuer actually made the ballon D’Or podium

    Bayern Munich 2011/12 isnt the strongest Bayern but also isn’t the weakest comparatively to let’s say the Bayern faced by Messi in 2008/09 (when Bundesliga was struggling to attract foreign talent and was overall a underwhelming league)
    This is all well documented btw

    I call BS on Jerome boetang being widely considered the best defender in the world during 2014/15
    DBS calcio+whoscored both list Pepe as better defender in the 14/15 league+Champions league
    http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-risultatiMediaVoto.php
    https://fr.whoscored.com/Players/10105/History/Pepe
    https://www.whoscored.com/Players/23589/History/Jérôme-Boateng


    Talk about revisionism,boetang doesn’t become the best defender in the World just because he was ridiculed by Messi
    Stop attempting to create a false narrative to suit your biases
     
  3. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Like I said, in the 80s they showed Italian league (one game on Sundays). Mainly because some of the Brazilians playing there. Euros they showed in Brazil. But not other leagues. Think about it. There weren't many channels back then. No cable. Not enough programming slots to show whatever European leagues. The world was a lot different back then. Euros and CA are a different story.

    I doubt most watch any Brazilian league games. I wouldn't expect people spending whole weekends watching EPL, La Liga, Italian league then Brazilian. Who has that time ? Most European can barely even name more than 2 or 3 teams in Brazil.
     
  4. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    I have no interest to debate which team was full strength and which wasn't. It's a well known fact that health is the biggest factor in the latter portions of the CL. You'll be hard pressed to find many ties where both teams are at 100%. Madrid the last three years has been a MASSIVE beneficiary of opponent injuries. Let's be real for a second.

    And no Pepe was not ejected after 44 seconds...
     
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  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    In QF to final rounds Messi never or hardly faced a genuine European heavyweight playing with all their star players

    Let’s give him the home leg vs Real Madrid particularly for the solo effort which was largely independent of team edge and more to do with his genius as a footballer
    But that’s it

    Messi couldn’t score in both legs vs Chelsea 08/09
    Couldn’t score in both legs vs Inter Milan 09/10
    Couldn’t score in one leg vs Bayern Munich 12/13
    and Consistently failed to decide champions league quarterfinals in matchups against Atlético Madrid or even AS Roma
    Did nothing in the R16 vs PSG(scored a pen he did not earn)

    Really my issue is you’ve attempted to draw an equivalence between ronaldo and Messi in CL QF to final rounds when there is none
    Ronaldo has a clear edge here and Messi over the long run 2009-2018 has been a greater performer than ronaldo in La Liga


    Really it is embarrassing when you suggest 13 SF goals are somehow inferior to 4
    Ronaldo scores in SFs when his team wins and he also scores when his team loses
    it was almost a guarantee ronaldo would score in any given KO stage fixture between 2012-2018
    The number of games he didn’t score in must be negligible and is testament to how consistently brilliant he was and how reliable he was as over the past 7 or so champions league seasons where he has never failed to top score and as a direct result Madrid won 4 CL titles and never failed to make the SF


    Ronaldo doesn’t have any CL trophies that were gifted to him like Messi 05/06
    His contribution there was extremely limited yet he has the medal thanks to dinho,Eto’o,puyol and co
    Everything ronaldo has won was earned with contributions in deep KO rounds whilst the same cannot be said about Messi
     
  6. TitoTata

    TitoTata BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 26, 2014
  7. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    I can keep list a whole bunch of ties Ronaldo didn't score in too. And then a whole bunch more in which he did score but had little or no impact like Dortmund 2013, Bayern 2014, Atletico 2014...

    Messi did get carried to the CL in 2006 but I never claimed he didn't nor does it matter. I don't rank Messi higher because he has 4 CL titles instead of 3... Titles are team accomplishments.

    13 goals can be inferior to 4 goals depending on context.

    You wanna know why Ronaldo is considered to be more a better CL player than Messi by a lot of casual fans? Because his team does a hell of a lot better when he doesn't score compared to Messi. When Messi doesn't score, his team crashes and burns. And with that comes blame. When Ronaldo doesn't score his team does fine sometimes even better! It's nice to be a player with less impact because you don't get blamed for losses as much.

    Case in point about the SF stage...

    Messi played 7 SF ties in his career. When he scores his team is 2-0 (100%) and when he doesn't score his team is 1-4 (20%).

    2008 vs Man U - no score/loss
    2009 vs Chelsea - no score/win
    2010 vs Inter - no score/loss
    2011 vs. Madrid - score/win
    2012 vs Chelsea - no score/loss
    2013 vs. Bayern - no score/loss
    2015 vs. Bayern - score/win

    Ronaldo played 11 SF ties in his career. When he scores his team is 3-4 (43%) and when he doesn't score his team is 3-1 (75%).

    2007 vs Milan - score/loss
    2008 vs Barcelona - no score/win
    2009 vs Arsenal - score/win
    2011 vs Barcelona - no score/loss
    2012 vs Bayern - score/loss
    2013 vs Dortmund - score/loss
    2014 vs Bayern - score/win
    2015 vs Juventus - score/loss
    2016 vs Man City - no score/win
    2017 vs Atletico - score/win
    2018 vs Bayern - no score/win

    Maybe you didn't know but Messi has never lost a CL knockout stage game or tie in which he scored a goal. Any tie from Round of 16 to the Final.

    Messi clearly has more impact on his team. When he scores, his team is undefeated. When he doesn't score, his team rarely ever wins.

    Ronaldo in the SF literally has negative impact. When he scores, his team wins less than half of the ties 43% and when he doesn't score, his team wins 75%. I mean if that doesn't show lack of impact I don't know what does. It is unprecedented to see something like that.

    Messi had two SF ties in which he scored and won, Madrid 2011 and Bayern 2015. Both are GOAT level performances. Ronaldo had three SF ties in which he scored and won, Arsenal 2009, Bayern 2014, and Atletico 2017. But Bayern 2014 as we mentioned had one fairly meaningless goal and one complete garbage time goal. It does nothing to help his case. Arsenal 2009 had that amazing wonder goal but then the second goal was meaningless to go up 4-0 on aggregate with away goal advantage. And Arsenal wasn't really a great team. So it's still a step below Messi's best. Atletico 2017 was a hat trick but the finishes were pretty simple and the defense was objectively awful not Atletico-like. I know it's a matter of taste but few would put that performance up with the best ever. I would put it behind Arsenal 2009 as well.
     
  8. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    I can't resist but mention the fact that Lewandowski had a head injury before that game, he even played with a mask. Bayern had zero shots on goal in that match.
    Regardless it was still a legendary performance by Messi. He scored 2 goals and assisted 1 past a Neuer who was like a wall that day.
     
  9. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I'm doing exactly what you are doing, only without the made up parts such as red cards at imaginary times.
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Neuer made 'only' 5 saves in the match (4 unsuccessful saves), which is good but is not extraordinary. He was carrying an injury anyway.

    The biggest problem was the absence of Alaba. His replacement Bernat was the weak link, the weakest performer of the match, and also at fault for the goals (although 'WhoScored' rated Schweinsteiger and Lahm below him). There was a personnel problem in midfield, therefore Lahm was playing at that spot.

    It's also simply true that in 2011 until the Pepe red card not much happened. See the recent 'Barcelona Legacy' book as well. The difference was made after the red card, with Affellay of all people providing the winning assist for Messi's tap-in.

    I agree Cristiano doesn't look better when we'll do the same exercise for him, so in that sense it is an irrelevant topic. Maybe CR7 was slightly unlucky between 2009-2013 (there was a goal cancelled against Barcelona) but that's about as far as it goes.
     
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  11. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    India

    Is this true? LMAO
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #6512 carlito86, Dec 29, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
    Ronaldo owned the 2009 CL SF vs Arsenal and is very comparable to any individual performance by Messi in CL SFs
    2 goals+1 assist in a 4-0 aggregate win

    A 40 yard freekick goal that nobody in the world apart from Cristiano Ronaldo or Juninho would ever dare to attempt in 2009 is not inferior to a dribbling goal.
    Messi has never scored or even attempted a FK from such a distance


    You can’t say one thing is inherently better or more difficult than the other when Messi can’t even attempt to score the type of freekick ronaldo did against Arsenal
    (Btw you did not claim this here but on another thread)
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/li...-better-uefa-champions-league-career.2085719/


    Arsenal 2008/09 may not be a super elite team but are they worse than a 10 man Real Madrid(Messi did not score till Madrid went 1 man down so this is relevant)
    Are they that much worse than Bayern Munich without their best player Arjen Robben and without ribery/ alaba over both legs
    Their star player Robert Lewandowski was also visibly injured etc

    Messi was inept against Chelsea in 2008/09 and 2011/12
    End product is the be all and end all for deciding who is the most effective attacker
    Messi did not score in 4 direct encounters vs Chelsea in semifinals
    Did not score in SFs vs inter Milan

    And was largely ineffective in several champions league quarterfinals that prevented his team from progressing further that they perhaps should’ve

    Btw A hattrick to down simiones Atlético in a champions league SF is almost as good as it gets for madridistas
    So I’m not sure where your going with your attempt to downplay it

    Atlético have conceded 4 hattricks since Simeone has been their manager and 3 of those have come of the foot of Cristiano Ronaldo
    He is is literally the scourge of Atlético Madrid
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #6513 carlito86, Dec 29, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
    I dunno it seems a bit like watching the X-Files to me

    no matter how hard I strain my eyes I can’t seem to see the corruption that is meant to be so blatantly apparent.
    I always found Gianni infantino to be a sly cunning bastard and I never fell for his clean cut anti corruption image(really Fifa is and always has been the Mafia of sports governing bodies)
     
  14. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    I won't argue the 40 yard free kick. It was a pretty damn special goal. To me personally, Messi's run through six Madrid players is more impressive as is the ankle breaker plus chip shot vs. Bayern. But if you disagree on that, I won't mind. However the fact that this wonder goal came with Man U already firmly in control of the tie up 2-0 with away goal advantage makes it less impressive. Not meaningless by any stretch but less impactful than if the score was 0-0. And then Ronnie's second goal came with 30 minutes left up 3-0 on aggregate. That one is essentially meaningless because the tie was already over. Arsenal scoring four goals in half an hour wasn't gonna happen. 2009 Arsenal was missing Robin Van Persie in the first leg at Old Trafford. And other than RVP and Fabregas, they literally had no other big names on the roster. Injured or not, 2015 Bayern was a much better squad than that Arsenal team.

    Regarding Atletico, I never said it's not a great performance but it isn't GOAT level. Yes Ronaldo scored 3 hat tricks against Atletico but very rarely did anything otherwise. In four CL ties he played against Atletico in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 he only made an impact in one of them in 2017.
     
  15. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This guy is ridiculous
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Remember they already started selling the Liverpool vs Madrid tickets in the official website before the semi final 2nd leg even finished?
    And guess what the referee denied clear penalties for Roma in that game
     
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  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    That is a lie my friend
    In 2015 he won the QF vs Atlético Madrid with a crucial late assist


    The same Atlético that Messi could never break down in the champions league in 2014,2015,2016
     
  18. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    I've seen Hakan Calhanoglu scoring from that range pretty often in Bundesliga. Even Steevie Gerrard scored some insane long distance goals back in the day
     
  19. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Messi scored against Atletico all those years in La liga if I remember correctly
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    It is one thing doing it in a league setting and a totally different thing doing it on one of the biggest stages in European club football

    Every type of goal has been replicated to some degree even Roberto Carlos’s freekick vs France in 97(the so called impossible freekick) was replicated in some far off land in south east Asia not that long ago


    Having the nerve/mentality to score these types of goals on big stages is a totally different thing IMO
     
  21. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    He was falling down as the ball left his feet. Can't even tell if it was an intended assist and either way it's a really basic one.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    LOL
    An explanation copy and pasted from MessiFancornered.Com
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    88525480-09CF-4107-B545-B554794C0C69.png
    Heat map from this season so far
    This guy is a total machine nearing 34 years old but performing like a 25 year old winger
    14 goals+8 assists in 24 matches
    Really I haven’t seen ronaldo this involved in build up play since 2014,picking up the ball in midfield areas and contributing to build up play,crossing on either wing,finishing in the box

    at the age of 33/34 CR7 remains a complete attacker.
    It’s probably wishful thinking but if he maintains this current level of influence for the duration of the season and propels juventus to a league title whilst remaining undefeated and also reaches the champions league final whilst be the clear standout performer in KO stages
    He should seal a 6th ballon D’Or as a career crowning achievement

    If he does all of the above he will in my personal opinion be a sealed GOAT contender moving from undisputed top 10 player of all time to undisputed top 5 player of all time

    Just so I’m clear at this stage of his career Cristiano isn’t IMO inferior to any player not named maradona,Messi,Di Stefano,Pele,Cruyff
    Winning a 6th champions league title +league title whilst remaining unbeaten takes him to a different stratosphere from a historical perspective
    Gento did win 6 European cups and several league titles but he wasn’t the main protagonist in any of them as far as I know
    His importance was comparable to let’s say a Ryan Giggs(as a regular world class performer)


    It is unusual for a player post 30 years to increase his historical position but ronaldo is no ordinary player
    I wouldn’t be surprised to see him play at the WC 2022 at 37 years old as a starter
    For sure Cristiano ronaldos club goals all scored in the European top flight also hold more weight than any other top 10 historical goalscorer other than Messi
     
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  24. TitoTata

    TitoTata BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 26, 2014
    Let's just hope he's 'clean' ...
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     

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