The hypocrisy that reeks through your post is telling Please tell us Did or didnt ronaldo lead in goals scored,assists,2nd highest chance creator on his team behind Di Maria etc Did you even read the stats I posted if you didn’t please don’t waste my time You explicitly referenced advanced statistics when you attempted to prove Messi’s greatness in WC 14 I don’t care about opta stats but only use them for people like you that take it as the ultimate reference point 5 different players scored in that champions league final but only 3 goalscorers achieved a 8/10 so your theory that goalscorers automatically achieve a 8/10 is once again a completely unsubstantiated myth Ronaldo contributed more defensively than any player not named Diego Godin,Sergio Ramos or Raúl Garcia He had more touches on the ball than any player not named modric or Ramos He created 3 chances (whoscored criteria not mine) And he was injured https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ldo-injury-copa-del-rey-real-madrid-barcelona The gruelling effects of playing 50+ games nearly every season since he was 20 years old
Hahahaa! I agree. I mean as much as I appreciate what Messi has done for the game, his WC14 performance was forgettable. Deserved but forgettable. Definitely no worse than Modric's golden ball performance. ALTHOUGH, I think Robben could have won golden ball in WC14. Didn't think Messi was really any more influential. Don't even bring up Maradona's WC. His was light years ahead. I mean, I wouldn't even put Messi's WC14 anywhere near the level of Kempes 78, Eusebio 66, or Jairzinho 70. Unfortunately for Messi, it's just a bad environment for him.
Maybe if he had spent all, or at least some of his career in the toughest league in the world (in Europe) it would be worth at least addressing his remarks.
Hating on Modric???? What the f&*k???!! Nobody needs to hate on Modric. 17/18 was arguably Modric's worst year since 12/13. I mean, I saw him perform better for Tottenham! He doesn't deserve it because Madrid was poor this year and given Modric's past, he is held to a higher standard. I personally put Modric's 13/14 season as his best. This year was a sympathetic year for Modric. Get outta here.
It doesn’t matter he scored 207 goals in 199 matches against European clubs...but 99.9% were in friendlies and the remaining goals scored in the intercontinental Cup which was just a gloried version of a friendly Like Brazil beating Spain in 2013 confed Cup decieved the world and everyone thought they were World Cup contenders We know what happened in Brazil 2014 What happens in friendlies isn’t a true reflection of reality When the competitive edge is removed from a performance it can no longer be used to substantiate the greatness of a player It is just a dress rehearsal at best
Seems like an impressive honor, but there has only been like 4 years in the history of the game that all four of these awards existed at the same time. Gotta love the internet ...
Rivaldo: “It's always tough to give your opinion about this subject. “Luka Modric had a great season in 2018, winning the Champions League and helping Croatia to be World Cup final, but if I had to choose, I would vote for Ronaldo. “The Portuguese scored a lot of goals last season, won the Champions League - scoring a sensational goal against Juventus away from home - and proved his value at the World Cup scoring four times, including a hat-trick against Spain, so I believe that he deserved the award more than anyone else. And then, we also have Lionel Messi who should have been at least in the top three. Honestly, I can't see why things have changed this time - removing the focus from Cristiano and Messi - because both of them had good seasons. “Some people are mentioning that Ronaldo's club change could have contributed to losing the award, but I don't agree with that as most of the decisive moments had already happened when he left Real Madrid to sign for Juventus, so there are no reasons to consider that a handicap. “I think this change of focus could be an attempt to at least for a year write a different name in the history instead of still mutating from Ronaldo to Messi and Messi to Ronaldo. Anyway, I consider that unfair because they had solid campaigns and were decisive on their clubs, so there were no reasons to change that tendency.” https://www.goal.com/en/news/ronald...aldo-sees-no-reason/r4hz5co1c7zh1vfcj9gnfujau
Carlito's claim is false. Messi actually had a pre-assist in the QF in the Belgium match and he basically scored winning goals in all three group stage matches and assisted the game winner in the R16. If Argentina won the WC, Messi's performance would be up there with Kempes, Eusebio, and Jairzinho. Not with Maradona obviously but who is up with Maradona as far as a great WC?
Don't take everything literally for god's sakes. When a player scores a goal, their rating automatically rises a lot (often 8+) on WhoScored the same way whether the goal was a 25 foot screamer that wins the game or a meaningless one like Ronaldo scored in the 2014 Final. My point wasn't that Ronaldo was trash in the 2014 run. He had a good run but it was far from a historic run that a 17-goal tally and 8 knockout goals would make you believe. That's all I said. And yes I did read your post. I don't want to continue this discussion because I addressed your points and you made no effort to address mine.
Kempes who destroyed the Dutch in the World Cup final? Better than Eusebio who scored 9 goals on route to a WC SF place Including 4 goals to singlehandedly overturn a 3-0 deficit Which iconic performance did Messi leave even by contemporary standards that compares to robben vs Spain,zidane vs Brazil,James Rodriguez vs Uruguay,Rivaldo vs Denmark If you think Messi did anything remotely comparable to what Hagi did to Colombia than you have lost the plot completely Hagi 94 is the best WC performance since maradona 86 What has Messi done in world cups that even compares to a 34 year maradona on his last leg To compare to Cruyff 74 messi will lead a life extension of perhaps 100 years
No way!! Are you kidding me???!!! Kempes, Eusebio, and Jairzinho didn't just have crucial goals but their performances were incredible!!! Messi just walks too much, not involved in the game like the others. And you can't deny that. Messi was known to walk for 85 minutes and half a couple of decisive moments. Eusebio, Jairzinho, and Kempes were heavily involved in the game like Messi never was in the WC. What Eusebio did was miles ahead of Messi. Same for Jairzinho. I think Messi's was closer to Kempes 78 but still not a single good. To be fair, it doesn't help that Messi has such a high standard. Ballon d'or 2018 being a great example. On second thought, maybe it's miraculous what Messi did in all fairness. Aguero and Higuain are negative players on the NT. Perhaps Argentina would struggle to get out of the group in 2014 WC. I think if any of the 3 had it as difficult as Messi it was Eusebio. And he was monsterous!!! The dude was all over the place creating chances throughout 90 minutes. And Jairzinho performance was clearly better than Pele. To be honest, the more I think about it, Messi's WC 2014 was better than Pele's 70 WC. Pele was walking just as much as Messi in WC70 and was fortunate to have players who could carry their own weight. Messi was alone. @carlito86 what do you think?
The whole "walking" argument is dumb to begin with. Unless you're a fullback, that's how you're supposed to play the sport. You choose your moments so you can maximize your comparative advantages. BigSoccer is ....wow!
@ko242 @carlito86 Messi led the 2014 WC in chances created and dribbles completed. He did a lot more than score goals. He didn't do much on defense but then that wasn't his job on that team. Robben had a good tournament as did James and Neymar but I would still say Messi was the best player in that WC. He was MOTM four times and had solid outings in the other matches as well by creating chances. It wasn't clear as day just like there wasn't a consensus pick this year (Hazard and Mbappe had a shot) but I still think Messi was the best choice for Golden Ball. None of the other guys were as decisive as Messi. Sorry if I went off tangent but I'm also responding to some previous posts here. I didn't watch Hagi in 1994, Kempes in 1978, Eusebio in 1966. or Jairzinho in 1970 so I won't comment on those. But I've never heard football aficianados rank these performances among the greatest ever.
If the criteria for greatness is end product than yes Pele is better with 4 goals+6 assists including goals and direct assists in the KO stages (including the World Cup final) Messi wins via advanced statistics (a la whoscored =midfield dribbles and lateral passes that led to nothing) Pele admittedly also left moments that were immortalised by football fans the world over (the feint vs Uruguay,GK,the very overrated no look pass to Carlos Alberto which was exaggerated at the expense of clodoaldo who made that goal legendary by himself It was more than skill it was a complete mockery of one of the best defensive teams of that time with the legendary Fachetti in there ranks. Clodoaldo is remembered for that one moment and it will never bee forgotten like Mauro bressan vs Barcelona With regards to Pele I think he also reached a higher plateau in terms of his peak performance Against Romania and Czechoslovakia he impressed me most although it must be said they weren’t remotely iconic in comparison to the best WC performances of Cruyff/maradona/Hagi/garrincha/robben and others that would take half a page to list Lato 1974 from what I’ve watched recently actually impressed me quite a bit aswell Pelé 70 is IMO only clear better than Messi 14 because Messi wasn’t impressive at all in the QF to final He was quite good before but as ive already expressed before legends are made in the QF to Final
Chances created with no end product Is useless You ever heard nobody remembers the losing finalist well there is an even lesser chance anybody will remember Messi lead in chances created That is a cop out excuse for losers Goals+assists+pre assists=direct involvement everything else is highly speculative Messi scored 4 goals that were relatively evenly spread out unlike CR7 18 so he deserves credit for that What I disagree with and will always disagree with is the notion that if somebody else (ie higuain)had scored in the final Messi will be on par with Pele or his performances will go down as legendary (Don’t get me wrong Messi is better than Pele but not via this angle) Maradona owned the KO stages of WC 86 completely Cruyffs best performance arguably came in the groupstage vs Bulgaria/Sweden but he was also a legitimately great performer in the KO round In his least effective performance vs Germany he still made impact Earned a penalty with a dribble from the centre pitch These so called football aficionados that don’t list Eusebio 66 as a legendary performance are clueless 9 goals by a player from a country with a population as tiny as Portugal is literally the maximum one could expect 4 goals+1 assists (none in the QF to final)+whoscored dribbles/voodoo doesn’t meet the threshold for great performance Robben murdered the world champions Span Ramos being widely regarded at the time as the best CB in the world couldn’t keep up AT ALL Robben was a menace throughout WC 14 in any moment he looked to be a danger so defenders were constantly On their toes Messi had many picnics/siesta throughout the tournament his performance cannot be compared to a player like robben who had a calamitous makeshift defence and ran himself into the ground for the benefit of the team
Stop with the "world champions Spain" angle. They didn't play anything like world champions in the 2014 WC. After the Netherlands rout, Spain proceeded to get badly beaten by Chile 0-2 and eliminated. Robben had a good tournament but he only really dominated one match vs. Spain then was solid in a couple of more but didn't really turn heads. Correct me if I'm wrong but nobody was really talking about him after the Spain game. Why are you talking about legendary? I know Messi didn't score a goal in the knockout round. Neither did Robben though. Or Neymar. Or Cristiano of course who crashed out in the group stage playing horribly. Obviously Messi didn't play on a historically great level comparable to Pele and Maradona at the 2014 WC. Only an idiot would say he did. I specifically said he wasn't on that level. But he still easily deserved the Golden Ball.
1.)Spain entered World Cup 2014 as the defending world champions. So in theory Arjen Robben did destroy the world champions who were dethroned officially at a later date in the tournament. 2.)you said Messi WC14 was phenomenal and if his team had made it to the final his performance would deservedly be mentioned alongside Eusebio 66 and Kempes 78 I responded by telling you this was totally laughable( and I went on to express my reasons) 3.)it is absurd for you to claim ronaldo played horribly in WC 14 without specifying the context that surrounded his performance The Portuguese Football Federation (FPF) confirmed he was suffering from tendinosis in the region around his left kneecap on 4 June 2014 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/27825525 Common symptoms of tendinosis are: localized burning pain and swelling around the tendon pain that gets worse during and after activity stiffness in the joint restricted joint movement pain that persists for several months Against the advise of his doctors he insisted on playing in the World Cup. Portugal being the great NT that they were at the time were only able to win 4 points in 3 groupstage matches Ronaldo directly won all 4 points for his team with a 90+ minute assist vs USA to draw 2-2 and the winning goal vs Ghana (And of course ronaldo never had a World class DM or centre back like mascherano to cover his back) Or even 3 of the top 10 attackers in the world at the time(Di Maria,Agüero,higuain) He had a hot headed Pepe who was red carded in their first match against Germany Fábio Coentrão their other good defender got injured in the opening match vs Germany and was ruled out for the remainder of the tournament After matchday one Ronaldo was left with some unknowns who played their club football in turkey,Qatar,Portuguese primera division etc Apples and pears comparison
We live in an era that everything is mostly judged by numbers, by fanboyism, in detriment of evaluating and dissecting the individual technical capacities of a player. Cruijff divided opinions, mostly at Barcelona. For Czibor and Di Stefano he wasn’t fit to be compared to Alfredo. For Argentinian goalkeeper, Carnevale, only Di Stefano and Pelé were true phenoms, when asked about Cruijff. We now know that in 1987 Pelé, more lucid than now, (obviously) more in tune with the memory in mind of Cruijff the player, did not place him in his top 11 of all-time. El Gráfico in 1978 viewed Cruijff as an underachiever at Barcelona, made lots of money but delivered little silverware. He was also accused of bankrupting Levante, mortgaging that team, only to play for the financial benefits at detriment of the club. Some of his ballon d’Or podium or top 5 finishes may have been on the back of his reputation, as British manager Bob Paisley mentioned in the late 1970s when Barcelona faced off vs Liverpool. Cruijff at Ajax can’t be properly evaluated in my view, it’s not my field, but in Spanish football there’s an abundance of information. Cruijff was like the Marlon Brando of cinema, tremendously talented in one epoch but irregular in others. The money got to him and more often than not he took afternoons off or eventually ventured out to the NASL when his game still had some gas left in the tank. Technically by Spanish accounts, he was not a great player because he wasn’t complete, a player of “limited maneuver, scarce in the aerial game (Cruijff himself mentioned he was never strong in this aspect) and with a discrete index of finishing.” The greatness of Cruijff lies more within his sorcery, and with the element of surprise. The man was a box-office success, attracted fans to flock stadiums and as mentioned, the true greatness lies within the ability to produce the unexpected, to make something shine when there’s boredom. As for the original point in hand, Pelé speaks with the understanding of a more educated epoch, when writers and experts analyzed the game with more profound wisdom. Nowadays, especially through social media, everything is more scrutinized by the numbers but less so by the evaluation of the skillsets of a player. Judging by that logic, Messi would be classified as a good technical player but not a great one.
You missed my point entirely. I know Ronaldo was hurt. My point was that while Messi didn't have a historic WC performance (obviously...) he was still better than the other best players in the world. The only one close was Robben but Messi was decisive in more matches.
You are now dragging many other half-true and incomplete assertions into the discussion (Paisley said in The Times of 1976 and 1978 something very different; the Levante thing can be easily debunked, because in fact he foregoed his contracted salary etc.) and broadening the claims. You know very well the positive judgement by Don Balon and Mundo Deportivo when he announced his retirement (not to mention the number of inclusions in the ideal XI). The original idea was though (something that hasn't been explored very often) that he was a weak header and finisher. Also disagree with the claim on Messi here (although I did agree with you he underdelivers against top teams and teams of the Uruguay, Portugal standard). But that makes it all the more fuzzy imho. With all due respect.
I think it would be great if we could perhaps specify what constitutes as technical ability and what doesn’t Aerial ability and being great with both feet is arguably a must for an elite goalscorer (with some exceptions like R9 who was mediocre at headers and Thierry Henry who was even worse) Messi can do most if not all the things required by a great technician Even if Lio lacks versatility in his dribbles of finishes what he can do with his left foot is unprecedented in the history of the game (or at least recorded football history because I know you will object to this statement) Pele could do everything but to what degree is up for debate Messi is a relatively weak aerial threat compared to Pelé Pelé is a relatively weak through ball specialist compared Messi/laudrup/iniesta/Xavi and most elite players that past through la Masia They have different qualities even if they are both prolific in front of goal Messi of recent seasons is more cerebral than athletic Pelé relied on his athletic qualities to a greater extent than Messi who is just ultimately more gifted Btw if Pele was indeed a goat level technician I’m genuinely intrigued about what exactly happened to him post 1965 (Besides the injuries of course that don’t effect your football brain and technique) He wasn’t exactly old,he was a young man at 25 years old The pace and power that made him unstoppable on the run was gone and he was outshone (and by a clear margin I must add) by a player who was 100% technical (Ie George Best )even Pele himself admitting he was the best player in the world during his short prime Even the most hardcore of Pele fanboys could never claim that he was the Best goalscorer Best dribbler Best playmaker In the world in one season Whatever else Messi did is up for debate.the level he reached in 2014/15 is not Lionel Messi in this season scored at the rate of Gerd Müller and was a playmaker to rival maradona 87-90 This isn’t an exaggeration if anything it is an understatement