Next Ballon d'Or winner that isn't CR7 or LM10 (and when)?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by BocaFan, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Are there quotes of actual voters that seem to hint at that direction? It is possible that they don't care for it but today there's a lot more attention for calender year stats as 10 years ago.

    You also mentioned Diego Costa (Chelsea) and Aguero (ManCity). With good reason but at both teams there are more standout players (Chelsea more so as ManCity, at least on the surface).

    At Bayern there are past season and this season a few players who are taking the shots. Muller, Robben, Lewandowski, Gotze (certainly when looked at a 'total' base rather than 'per game' base).

    At both Barcelona and Real Madrid the ultimate shot taking is rather lopsided (again esp. on a 'season total' base but also at a per game base). I'm not saying it is wrong because Bale does have missed the most 'clear cut chances' of all Real Madrid players.

    Chelsea and ManCity are somewhat in between: their secondary shot taker isn't too far behind (61 vs 56 at Chelsea at 19 vs 18 games; 79 vs 60 at City at 17 vs 18 games). But it happens to be (moderately) industrious midfielder (Oscar, Touré) that is doing that, as also reflected by the proportion of attempts outside the box and the shot accuracy. Both sides play commonly only with one 'real' striker or forward ofc.

    Would be fun to see what happens if Lewandowski becomes somewhere the main shooter.

    'Pivote' - that is hipster speak for pivot I assume ;).

    I also found the lecture he gave interesting. It is filmed by someone and subtitled (I've only seen some parts though, the ones where he explained with a video some things).
    http://www.totalbarca.com/2013/news/sneak-peek-pep-guardiola-in-argentina/
     
  2. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I understood your point. Robben shares the limelight equally with Ribery at Bayern Munich, while Ronaldo has it all for himself at Real Madrid, so this hurts Robben in getting votes. I just wonder if a superb performance at the WC is enough to surmount this disadvantage, it used to be but in this era the usual yardsticks have changed.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    In history,
    if not R9 fenomeno, R Carlos could have won once to his name (97 and 2002)!
    Also Maldini was close in 94 (lost to Romario+ stoitchkov = no shame) while Breitner was close in 1981 (lost to Rummenigge)

    Now the question is how close *in talent, Lahm was against Carlos, Maldini or Breitner ....
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    plus Messi with all spot light at Barca ...

    At WC2014, in first 3games Robben, Neymar Benzama were no lesser than Messi - besides James a bit better.
    Another issue of Robben against Messi/CR7 was his "fitness" - he was often injured a few times across different seasons .. (Messi only got one time in late 2013)
     
  5. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I don't think Lahm is all that far from them, but still a notch below clearly for everyone to see.
     
  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #31 JamesBH11, Jan 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
    haha I like your irony ...

    "not that far" vs " a notch"

    Let me translate: A notch = one class = not that far = far (enough)!
     
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  7. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I don't think a standout performance in a tournament is enough to be honest. You need a great year overall in the league and especially in the champions league, on top of all that you need to be a 'superstar' hence I feel Neymar and Pogba are likely. If Juve go far in the CL in 15/16, win the Scudetto and Pogba has a great tournament then he has a chance. Hazard is yet to really make the Belgium team his own, right now it's De Bruyne's show. As Puck says, the limelight at Chelsea is shared between a few people (Him, Costa and Fabregas), he's also still contending with Alexis & Aguero for best player in the PL (assuming one sees him as Chelsea's best). Pogba is slowly becoming THE guy in Serie A and also an important player for France.
    Neymar just needs to keep up with Messi & Ronaldo as he had threatened to do earlier this season, keep scoring in the big games as he has been and keep outperforming all the other forwards at international level. He's the closest I feel.
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I thought Tevez was the best player at Juventus and Serie A.
     
  9. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Last season he definitely was, and he started this season the same way. But slowly Pogba is making it his own team, becoming our leader and consequently the best in Serie A too. The 'becoming' part is vital because Pogba still has a few elements in his game to iron out.
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Just to be clear: that's not exactly what I said. My point was the sharing of shot taking (goal attempts).

    I think Hazard, Costa and Fabregas (in last game it was visible btw how Fabregas was often the free man on the ball) are in a way unfairly punished vis-a-vis Aguero.

    About Aguero we know that he isn't too good without the ball. That is why Lavezzi has some added value instead of Aguero for the national team. For a 2nd fiddle role Lavezzi isn't much worse (against good opponents), if not at all.

    Hazard, Costa, Willian, Fabregas, Oscar can attack fluid and quite interchangeably because they also defend fluid. Some more as others, and Hazard is with ups and downs learning, but they all try and Mourinho demands it from all.

    Some people (the usual suspects) make it as if Man City is a one man team. Although I think a case can be made for Arsenal, I think for Man City it is exaggerated. For instance, the shot efficiency (goals per game / shots per game) for both David Silva and Lampard is even significantly better - and they don't take penalties for Man City.

    People might underrated Costa (and Hazard) because of the way the team is set up. Arguably not because of their weaknesses, but ironically because of their strengths (also at team possession of the ball).
     
  11. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Tough question. I'd say Kroos or Neymar.
     
  12. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    That's true in 2015. But Hazard is almost 4 years younger than Cesc. If he continues to develop he should be quite a bit better than Cesc in 2-3 years. Then again who knows who his teammates will be 2-3 years from now (maybe Messi :p).
    Playing for Belgium in the right era should also help Hazard's chances. Aguro, Alexis and Costa can't really use int'l football to boost their popularity and Ballon d'Or chances, whereas Hazard can.
     
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  13. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Yeah, I mean by definition calling any team a 'one-man team' is exaggerated. I think at the time of Aguero's injury he had 19 league + CL goals and nobody else had more than 4. In terms of offense, it doesn't get more dependent on one guy than that.
    The first part of this season Yaya and Silva weren't playing up to their usual level. Dzeko was injured or struggling terribly, we weren't yet sure how big Lampard's role would be, etc. So Aguero took almost all of the spotlight and rightly so.

    I gotta say, using shot efficiency % as a method to judge how well a player is playing is bizarre to say the least. Obviously a player like Silva who looks to pass first and shoot only when he's within 5 yards of goal is going to have a relatively high %age whether he's in good form or not.
     
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  14. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    My bad, misinterpreted that.
    I think, still, Aguero is seen as the main guy at City, whether fairly or unfairly. At some point this season he had scored close to 60% of their goals in the league and CL. At Chelsea, Costa is the main scorer, by some distance, and Cesc is the main assist man, again by a distance.
    Maybe Silva's injury and Toure's poor form earlier in the season helped Aguero get that spotlight but he took the chance.
     
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  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Aguero's popularity would increase if he didn't suck when playing for Argentina, look at DiMaria for a comparison. Also, Alexis plays in the right era for Chile too, I feel had Pinilla's shot been a goal against Brazil, or had Chile won the pk shootout, Chile would have beat Colombia and reached the semifinals of the tournament. And Costa plays for Spain, despite their debacle at the WC still a very strong team.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Again, to an extent because of the way the team is set up.

    During his injury ManCity won 5 domestic games and had one drawn (2-2 vs Hull City; scoring was not the problem). If you also include Everton at home - where Aguero played the first seven minutes at a 0-0 scoreline - they won 6 domestic games. 15 goals in 7 games.

    They also won the incredibly important away game against AS Roma (0-2), which was arguably their best UCL performance this season as a team.

    Yes, the 'usual suspects' were wagering on a collapse of City. It didn't happen.

    Silva was, before his injury. He had a few very good games.

    Would it be entirely coincidental that Touré was suddenly shooting more often from distance? (sometimes the most of his team)

    I gotta say, you twist my words.

    He has 2 of his 31 shots taken in this season within the 6 yard box.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Which ones?
     
  18. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    No games against teams in the top half of the table so that's very misleading.

    Anyway, I'm not the one saying they're a one-man team. But at the start of the season they were highly dependent on his scoring. To an unhealthy extent.

    But he's the same age and nationality as Messi roughly so he will almost certainly never win a Ballon d'Or.

    Right , he's only taken 31 shots! Shooting is not what he does or what he's paid to do. How well he's playing will be determined by what he does with the ball those other 99.5% of occasions he has it and doesn't shoot.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What about the results against those bottom half teams when Aguero did play? Newcastle in the League Cup, Everton recently, Queens Park Rangers, Stoke City.

    Typically you also forget the Roma game I mentioned.

    Rinse-repeat, ad infinitum. How dependent they are can be seen when a replacement player is installed. Whether the scoring and/or results take a hit. We have seen that.
    Of course not at laboratory conditions, but that is never the case.

    Exactly, and not rarely Aguero has less than 20 passes a game and completes even less. At the Champions League he has completed just 15.6 accurate passes per game. That is how the team is set up.

    Of course Silva, Lampard and Touré aren't (only) paid for their scoring but I was citing their efficiency as a testament to their (potential) contribution and ability. And unlike what you say it's in case of Silva not from extremely close range. It's an anecdote about their ability.
     
  20. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Cherry-picking has resumed. Thanks, but I'm aware that Man City weren't 14-0-0 when Aguero got injured. You're getting away from the theme of this thread. It comes across sometimes that Aguero is carrying Man City. That's all that's relevant.

    BTW the Everton match was 0-0 when Aguero came on as a sub and they scored right after.

    Funny you don't apply the same logic for Alexis with Arsenal. "Arsenal are a one-man team" you say, yet without him they were doing just as well last season. :laugh::p
     
  21. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Decision making; when to play the simple pass, when to do the more flamboyant stuff. A few times we end up in trouble defensively when he tries to be too 'cute'
    Earlier this season he had a tendency to disappear during games but less so lately.
     
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  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #47 PuckVanHeel, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
    I can shake your hands.

    That is only one game he missed. It was against Aston Villa, which is one of the relegation candidates. If they can show a series of 9 games without a win (6 losses) and a series of 16 games with only 2 wins (vs Leicester, helped by a red card, and Crystal Palace) then that explains something. In that match also both Ozil and Ramsey were present.

    Second: Sanchez has a very high efficiency given the number of shots he attempts in a match; he has a number of assists. He has more passes, more key passes, more dribbles, is more often fouled, more crosses, more accurate long balls, more through balls and wins it in defense too. The heatmap and distance covered doesn't lie.

    Not only does he score for his team, he also moves a lot, tackles while without ball, sets up chances, provides crosses, plays at multiple positions (during/between matches), draws fouls.

    He does lose the ball a lot, but that is the same for his whole team. His midfielders and defenders also waste possession more often as the standard should be for a top team.

    Sometimes he also plays and runs like a 'headless chicken' but that doesn't negate all the things he does for his side. He is both their main scorer (next to by far the one with the most accurate crosses; he also sends the most accurate crosses of his team from wide positions) and the Arsenal attacker who does the most in defense.

    Of course, Arsenal is still not a one man team in a literal sense. It is more like 'one man who is among the best of his team alongside many different dimensions, does more than other Arsenal attackers his defensive job and is dynamically involved in their fortunes.' That says it right I think?
     
  23. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think this year might be the last year either one wins. As @comme mentioned Ronaldo is carrying a big goal scoring count right now that will bleed over into 2015 (although it's quite inflated from the PKs). RM has a good chance at making a double CL. Messi is scoring again after a "slow" start and with the CA he has the opportunity to finally give Argentina a title (he will need plenty of help though). That would play a big role in the votes.

    Next year the Euros could give Ronaldo a chance to do something with Portugal but that's a very long shot.

    As for who will win next, I don't think any of the "old" guard will win it (Robben, Tevez, Ibra, etc ...). Aguero has a shot but he is always injured and can never play a full season. Suarez would have been a good call last year, but things have changed dramatically for him with another biting incident and his tough adaptation at Barca.

    I think Neymar is at least a couple of years away although he could impress in this or next year's CA. If he keeps improving at Barca (and the team doesn't implode), he had a decent chance. I'd say Pogba has potential as well. So do Hazard, Kroos, and even Sanchez.
     
  24. Sloth

    Sloth Member

    May 4, 2011
    London
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Gareth Bale, although if he moves to the Premier League he probably wont get it.
     
  25. verde-rubro

    verde-rubro Member+

    C.S.Maritimo + Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jan 15, 2005
    LONDON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    you beat me to it
    its going to be who ever wins the CL this year
     

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