Need Help with my Perspective

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Val1, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    How isn't this a card:




    For comparison purposes, just one game before for Virginia, Alissa Gorzak was given a straight red for this challenge on the keeper.



    Now, to be fair to the referee, upon further review, he did rescind the card, and did not award a yellow.

    But the UNC challenge? The ref didn't even call a foul, just giving a drop ball to Virginia.

    When do goalkeepers get protected?
     
  2. sulfur

    sulfur Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    I'll play this game...

    In the first, the attacking player actually gets the ball first, and both players come barrelling in with about equal intensity... the GK just comes off a bit worse. I'm ok with a dropped ball for the injuries here (both players VERY slow to get up from that collision).

    In the second, the GK gets to the ball first, holds it, and then appears to get clipped in the head by the attacking player as she goes by. This is a foul, I could see a caution here, but more often than not, this is just a foul.
     
  3. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the second clip, the keeper obviously has the ball, and is fouled. In the first clip, I couldn't tell who got to the ball first on the first three times I watched it. If nobody has the ball, both the attacker and the keeper have a right to go to the ball.
     
  4. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Fair enough. The ref obviously agreed with you guys.

    So, what is meant by "protecting the keeper?" Is that even a thing?
     
  5. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We try to protect all the players, but it's a physical game. If the keeper doesn't have the ball, he doesn't have any special protection. If he is going up for the ball and gets hit, then it's a foul.

    Having played some keeper, keepers need to be a little crazy to go diving after balls in traffic! No such thing as a great, clean keeper. (I am talking about grass and dirt, not playing dirty.)
     
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  6. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I will also play. I think the first clip is a 50/50 ball that I THINK the attacker is never going to win and while not cardable, I have a foul going out. She lowers her head to win the ball, and I think that is the foul. I have no idea what the call is in the second clip.

    I also hate the dark uniformed team. Their shorts are barely visible with the lengths of those shirts.
     
  7. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    So... Only going up, for the keeper?

    I've talked to pointy football refs and they say that the Tar Heel would have been called for spearing on that play. Different game, different rules, after all. But the keeper fractured her jaw on that play.
     
  8. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    and thats why they are point ball refs. I see what you are getting to, but I just have the foul going out. The Attacker is entitled to that ball and so is the ‘keeper.
     
  9. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Play 1: I see two players running for the ball like a pair of baseball outfielders who both think they have it and haven't called each other off. They collide. Unfortunate, but I kept asking myself, "Which way am I supposed to call the foul?"

    Play 2: I don't see what the others do. I guess if we were to compare this to something that would happen between two field players, it would two players both contacting the ball at the same time, but one player's other leg catches the other player's other leg? I can't see a justification for yellow and certainly none for red.

    How was it rescinded, incidentally? VAR in the ACC now?
     
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  10. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    The first play the offensive player got her head to it first but it’s takes slow motion multiple looks to see that. In real time that’s a 50/50 and after injuries I’m dropping the ball to the GK (or whatever the corresponding equivalent restart is in college).

    The second is a foul on the attacker and she’s getting an AC.
     
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  11. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Player 1: maybe make a case for a careless jump into the goalkeeper. Im fine with the whistle and IFK for Gk (for college)

    player 2: I think I could get away with an AC to the attacker. Most definitely a foul on the attacker. Maybe a caution if the game needs it (earlier incidents, etc)
     
  12. Geko

    Geko Member

    Sacremento Geckos
    United States
    May 25, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Short version: no. It's one of those things that players make up because they think it's a thing. The only rule that is special to the keeper is that if they have possession of the ball (two hands, or one hand pinning the ball to the ground, etc.) they cannot be challenged.

    In your first clip, it's a big collision, but the attacker actually gets to it first. I had to watch it twice, but she gets a head on it. In the second clip, the keeper has pinned the ball down and then gets challenged. On first glance I'd agree with Gorak on the red, but that video quality isn't very helpful.
     
  13. BrianD

    BrianD Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jun 29, 2018
    What do you see as the time difference between the keeper having control and the challenge? It looks nearly simultaneous to me. Nothing vicious or careless either. I could see a foul for not getting any of the ball or getting there barely second, but I don't see how any car is appropriate.
     
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  14. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yeah, we do have VAR. And it was after video review that the ref rescinded the card. Didn't award a yellow.

    It's still limited to goal line calls and "discipline". Most of the sub points for discipline seem to address player fighting and identifying "combatants" but I guess that a red card includes discipline.
     
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  15. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don’t know that players make it up. I think it is something we think about and talk about in youth games in particular. The younger the players, the more we’re going to err on the side of quick calls to protect vulnerable GKs from unskilled opponents. But that doesn’t mean all contact with a GK, even in youth games, is a foul. And that doesn’t translate up into “real” soccer.
     
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  16. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ll make it short. Other than the ability to use their hands, the keepers have no special protection or privilege over any player.

    Those days are gone. Though you will find the refs still around that view playing keeper as the first step to sainthood.
     
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  17. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess there is something wrong with me, because every time I watch that first clip, all I can think is red card. The argument of "the attacker gets the ball first" just doesn't fly with me. That doesn't change the fact that the attacker went into the challenge with no regard for player safety. Maybe you could get away with a yellow card, and I would probably be OK with that. But to say "No foul", to me, is absolutely crazy. By calling nothing, you are basically telling the players that a challenge like that is acceptable. I don't think that is the message I want to send to players in my game.
     
  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    What did the attacker do that was worse than what the keeper did?
     
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  19. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you have to ask, then maybe you should watch the video again.
     
  20. sulfur

    sulfur Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    As a GK myself (which you might have noticed from my "avatar"), both attacker and goalkeeper come flying into this with equal intensity/disregard.

    The attacker gets ball before GK (not that this excludes them from committing an offence). The attacker is trying to play the ball the only way she feasibly can (with her head).

    Strictly speaking, both are committing an offence here, and strictly speaking, the end result should be a penalty kick for the attacking team, as neither of the offences (to my viewing and experience) are worse than the other, so the tactically advantageous offence wins out.

    But nobody would expect a penalty kick here.

    If this happens to two players on the field, ask yourself this question: "is there an offence?"

    PS simply saying "watch it again" doesn't help anyone -- explaining your thinking as to why you believe this to be an offence on the attacking player? That does.
     
  21. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What I see is the attacking lunging into her opponent, leading with her head, making contact with the opponent in the head/neck/upper chest area. Given the position of the referee (which I would say is not good) there is no way for the referee to know if the attacker even touched the ball. I feel that the attempt to play the ball by the attacker endangered the safety of the opponent. For you to say that this should be a penalty kick is absolutely absurd. Like I said before, in my mind, it AT LEAST should be yellow, but I would actually lean toward red. There is no place for a challenge like that in the game.
     
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  22. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    It is my opinion that "ya gotta protect the keeper, ref!" is just BS that coaches yell when their gk drops the ball and gives up a legit goal. However, it is also my opinion that there is a fundamental principle that you cannot bulldoze an opponent. So I am with @ptref on the first video. You have to play with control and with some regard for the safety of your opponent.

    On the second video, I see a card here, as well. If a forward goes on a fishing expedition for the ball and catches the keeper's head, YC is an easy sell--possible RC depending on the severity. From the video, you really can't tell about the contact, but when the keeper goes into recovery mode by rubbing her head, the first guess is the foot, shin or knee clipped her on the way by. If after a few seconds you realize she didn't get hit, then keep the card and go to an AC (and drop ball). If you are calling a foul, then card.
     
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  23. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And if you talk to ice hockey officials, it could be a clean open ice check. Don't applying the rules of one sports to another.
     
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  24. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To the videos themselves I’m in agreement with @ptref . The first video is at least a yellow.

    the key for me is the attacker leaves her feet to jump at/through the keeper. At that speed and angle the player knows there’s no way to avoid serious contact once she leaves her feet into the challenge. To put it in legal terms she recklessly loses control of her body by jumping forward with disregard for the consequences of the impending contact.

    The keeper however stays on her feet and in control of her forward motion. Doesn’t even raise her hands to punch the ball, simply keeps them in the “basket catch” position. Possibly the least threatening way for a keeper to come in on this play.

    Video 2 is nothing. The contact is incidental and is more a result of the opponent bodying into her than any action taken by the attacker.
     
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  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I initially only saw on a small screen, which is why I asked what the attacker did more than the keeper. Looking on a bigger screen, I see a forward coming in too hot (hotter than the GK) and being unable to avoid going through the GK. But it looks worse because the GK is also coming out. I think a red would be harsh, but would agree with a caution .
     
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