I'll be interested what the response to the bolded fact will be. EDIT: I see that the response has already come in, and that the determination is that Schalke made Mckennie the player he is, in one year. The 7 before that didn't matter for his development, I guess.
Opinions vary. FCD is to be commended, they are doing worlds better at identifying talent in the US than the majority of their competitors are. And when you get ahold of a young talent that's full of potential and has that desire it's as easy to screw them up as to improve them. FCD isn't screwing kids up from what data is out there. And Schalke couldn't have turned Wes into a top level B1 starter if the foundation and skills weren't already there. No one is that good at coaching. This isn't a boolean equation. Broad brush strokes always miss the gems on either end.
This whole nonesense about MLS not producing talent that clubs in "Big 5 leagues" want is such abject nonsense that I don't know how to respond. The truth is literally the exact opposite. Big Euro clubs are hoovering up young talent from MLS academies on a daily basis. So they're grabbing them before they start having first team impact. If you're FCD that's Weston McKennie, Emerson Hyndman (who went to Fulham), Johan Gomez (who just left for Porto), and on and on. Chris Richards went to Bayern Munich before he played a first team game. Its the same thing they do when they look for talent in Croatia or Portugal or Belgium or Argentina or Ghana or wherever. They want the 16-18 year old raw materials not the 28 year old adult professionals that have spent their whole careers in those leagues. This is just par for the course, not a bad thing in any way. Its expected. Everybody on this board should be able to name 30 young players that have left MLS clubs for Euro clubs thru all sorts of mechanisms. You can start with all of the players on our recent U20 World Cup team. Ledezma, Mendez, Soto, Gloster, Llanez, Richards, and that crowd. Here's another one from today. Everybody should be able to name other players who left the NYCFC academy for Europe. You start with Gio Reyna who went to Dortmund. #NYCFC has transferred defender Joe Scally to Borussia Moenchengladbach. Sources tell ESPN the fee is $2M and could rise to $7M with add-ones. He’ll stay with NYCFC for 2020 and then join Gladbach in January of 2021. Here’s a deeper look at the deal. https://t.co/vYfTdwgEWe— Jeff Carlisle (@JeffreyCarlisle) November 13, 2019
@Clint Eastwood - i agree with your take broadly. If so many strong USMNT prospects are heading overseas at a younger age, why do you think that the U23s only have 1/3 of the roster from players in Europe? I'd note that this is a camp in Europe as well. Thanks.
Because we also have good domestic U23s. Remember, no club ever has to release a player to any youth camp or tournament. Callups are turned down all the time for U23s, U20s, etc. A lot of the youngsters in Europe will be taking part in this U20 cycle. The U20 World Cup qualifying campaign is upon with with the actual tournament taking place in June of 2020. Konrad de la Fuente Barcelona Gio Reyna Dortmund Josh Pynadath Ajax Johan Gomez Porto Cameron Harper Celtic Uly Llanez Wolfsburg Travain Sosa Hamburg Taylor Booth Bayern Munich Leo Sepuvelda Salamanca Indiana Vassilev Aston Villa Blaine Ferri Gruether Furth Jalen Hawkins Ingolstadt Stuart Richie Hannover Matthew Hoppe Schalke Roberto Hategan Nurnberg Owen Otasowie Wolves Damien Las Fulham Chituru Odunze Leicester Quincy Butler Hoffenheim Mason Judge Frankfurt Jonathan Tomkinson Norwich Want me to keep going? I can...................... Not all of those players are going to "make it." But in all young age groups we have a large pool of Euro based players to evaluate. There's so much talent over there that news comes out every day. We just had the Scally news today. Yesterday was USYNTer Matteo Ritaccio (formerly of BW Gottshee in the Development Academy) signing a contract at Liverpool. Matteo Ritaccio has signed his first professional contract with the Reds 🙌🔴— Liverpool FC (@LFC) November 12, 2019
Is the perspective that most of our overseas talent is U20? My cognitive dissonance is that if many of our best players are leaving to go to leading programs in Europe early (which does appear to be the case), why is the number of european based players at this camp so low? I don't follow youth prospects so I'm asking a question I don't know the answer to rather than asking a leading question.
Most of our overseas talent is U23 (which of course encompasses U20). That of course also encompasses U23s that have already matriculated to the senior USMNT (Pulisic, McKennie, Adams, Weah, Sargent, Dest, and company. Actually, 22 players eligible for the U23 Olympic team have been called up over the last calendar year by the full USMNT.) Part of the USMNT's big problem right now is a lack of elite "in their prime" talent. We don't have many 25-26 year olds playing regularly in big European leagues. DeAndre Yedlin, John Brooks, etc.
I think you'll find a welcome reception from other new posters who feel strongly about the need to back MLS. You've said a couple of things here I want to unpack: you've highlighted players starting in top leagues: does a non-starter not count in your mind as someone better than MLS? how many minutes do they get before they are no longer viewed as better than minor leaguers? you're ok with the majority of players coming from our domestic league because Gregg is from there. Do you think we should always pick an MLS coach as we've often heard that it's important to understand American players? Do you think that 2/3 of rosters spots is about the right number for MLS? Is that natural or a hard cap? Do you think MLS is generally better than the Championship and B2? Finally, I don't think there's any (or many) posters who think there should be no MLS players on the roster. My guess is that the bid/ask spread is between 25% of spots going to MLS on the low end to 65% on the high end (which is where we are). Sounds like you fall on the top end because that's where Gregg came from. I'd note that he also played and coached in Europe.
To be honest, its very difficult for the USMNT to advance past where it is now without MLS really advancing. And by that I mostly mean youth and player development programs. Half of the league has been formed since 2011. Most clubs have no clue what they're doing yet when it comes to youth and player development. Even the ones that got a head start (FCD, NYRB, LAG, RSL) have only really been investing for 10 years. And the leader, FCD, only got their reserve team up this season. We're just babies when it comes to this. Folks bash Atlanta United for how they've handled Andrew Carleton. Atlanta United is three years old. What are people expecting? And in those three years they've won an MLS Cup and a US Open Cup. What they don't know how to do yet is develop internal American domestic talent. That takes time. And to be honest, in the past many of our USMNT-caliber players went to Europe because they couldn't get paid in MLS. Now players like Jordan Morris and Paxton Pomykal are being paid a hell of a lot to stay in the league. Paxton Pomykal, who is only 19, just signed a deal at $650k a year contract. He's on a DP salary next season. Having US youth internationals on those types of deals has not been routine in league history. Paxton Pomykal is now the highest paid player on a playoff team. He gets paid more than the Texas Rangers' all-star outfielder Joey Gallo.
I'm hopeful that the [Davies], Scally and Richards deals are a sign of the future. i know you've said that teams have academies to get players for their first team but I think that's not quite right - they're there to monetize their assets and I hope that the best teams make a lot of money selling good young prospects to the next level.
That is just one element to his development and i dont think it was in the top three. What did FCD do that made him so much better than if the FCD academy didnt exist and played for one of the old big north dallas clubs? One thing we know is that he debuted 19 months after not playing in the u17 WC. It is interesting that US Soccer did this long piece and there was so little on his time with FCD. https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2018/07/rising-weston-mckennie I may copy quotes but the time spent in the arti le on topics where the most critical development took place. Spending three years in Germany from 5 yo to 8 yo (similar story to pulisic... I think we might be onto something here) Going to Schalke Having a fire be lit under him by being cut from the u17 team. Having the FCD set up with first team coaches games ( credit FCD. How did such an athletic, hard driven kid who played up years in Germany at an early age and whose coach claimed he knew would be a professional come back to the states and not make the US u17 team?
As usual, you arguing against the straw man that is easy to defend. The argument is they have done a very poor job of signing them and developing them into top players.
Do you think there were a lot of European based U23s that weren't released? do you think the balance of our elite youth players is 2:1 MLS to non?
Producing 16 yr olds, or 14 yr olds, is not the problem. It is taking the 17 yr old and developing them into a top player. This has happened once, Adams. But even he left at 19. Of course, some of it is survivor bias, the best leave theoretically. But not many leave after 20. Lots of players stay in MLS or go College then back to MLS through 18-22 and become mediocre MLS fodder. A part of the problem is the lack of options. If a player doesn't work out at MLS Club A, he can't move to another MLS Club. He has to fail where he is, go to college, or go overseas.
I'd say Adams is an absolute success. Walking on the field and performing from the start is a sign the player was prepared for that opportunity. NYRB handled that about as well as they could. They moved an over rated player who some fans thought was international quality so he could get minutes centrally. Now they need to replicate it over and over and over. I'd also add Miazga but he still wasnt prepared to play at Vitesse (not sure where the MLS fans rate that league and dont care).
McKennie, a product of FCD's academy is a starter in the B1. Adams had been a starter in the B1. Zack Steffen is a starter in the B1. Alponso Davies has been starting for Bayern Munich. Yedlin has been starting for Newcastle United. Almiron is starting for Newcastle United. He's also playing a different position at Newcastle. Hyndman was a rotational player, who got starts due to the Atlanta's injury situation. Parks is a rising young player. Vela was an excellent La Liga player. Rooney was ace last season. Not so much, this season.
It's not like you to exaggerate but this is pure MLS jingoism. That word again, "talent", that has lots of sound and fury but signifies NOTHING until it is validated. You're big on numbers. Here's a question. What percentage of those "talented" MLS products being daily hoovered up by the Big 5 Leagues ends up having any measure of success in those same leagues? The answer is very few. Moral of the story: MLS may produce "talents" but they aren't talented enough to become certifiable Big 5 League PLAYERS.
The responsibility of clubs is to turn raw talent into pros, essentially teaching how to apply talent into a game and team setting. It's both the physical aspects, such as how to shield and turn against a defender, when to play certain types of passes, etc, and the mental, the tactics and awareness. But the actual talent largely falls on the kid. A guy like Puli mostly develop his skill set alone thru hours of dedication. This applies across sports. Bulgaria didn't intentionally develop a Stoichkov or Berbatov, they developed their skill set themselves. Just as America didn't develop Lebron or Kobe. They develop themselves, just as Dirk did in Germany. Tom Byer has talked at length about this. A players' skills are mostly created at home and outside of regular training. Team training in an academy teaches how to apply the skill set. MLS is giving more young talent a place to learn to apply that talent. But as to is the level of teaching and level of play in MLS enough for that talent to step into a top league and hit the ground running without needing further education or adaptation? As of now it's mostly a no. Adams did do it. I think Morris has improved and could help a lower table club in a top league. But will Pomykal go from exciting prospect to a 15/10 type player and truly realize his talent? Time will tell. There's various steps at play. There's turning a 15/16 yr old academy kid into an MLS level player. We're seeing more and more of that. There's turning that same 15/16 yr old into a an elite, top 25 MLS player. We see very little of that. There's taking the 15/16 yr old who turned into a solid MLS player by 20/21 and having him take the next step to someone who can step into a top 50 club and contribute without missing a beat. We're not there yet. We see lots of players plateau. But that's due to the development ladder of sports. In basketball you go from HS to college to the NBA. If you don't take that step to the NBA you're not going to hit your ceiling. Each step up the ladder brings more out of you.
Just looking at where guys are when they transfer. Davies did not go from MLS to Bayern. It was months and then an injury crises and a position change. GKs are a different species. Hamid went to Denmark and couldn't crack the starting lineup. Guzan went from relegated in EPL to MLS All-Star. I don't think GK is relevant. Almiron was the best player in the league when he left. He is semi-effective but playing for Newcastle. Yedlin didn't go directly into any EPL lineup. McKennie went to the U19 Bund. Adams is the one MLS player that went right into the starting lineup of a UCL caliber team. Rooney went to the Championship having come from Everton's bench, at best. Hyndman got starts being the 20-25th best player at Bournemouth. Sims was an impact MLS player after being the same sort of reserve player for Southhampton; which is not a good team at the moment. Vela was good for a mid table La Liga team and became MVP in MLS instantly. So, leaving Adams aside as some freak, for now... The best, younger, DP level players in MLS can be good players at mid- to lower table teams in Top 4 leagues. Squad players for EPL teams can be starters to impact players on top MLS teams, DPs, and even MVP candidates. Good mid table La Liga players can become on of the "20 best in the World" for Alexi Lalas based on what they do in MLS. Canouse was a mostly 2.Bund midtable team starter and became one of DCU's better players. Pozeulo was a good player on a mid-table Belgium team and had an immediate impact in MLS, turning TFC from a below playoff line team to a Cup finalist. If we look at Tammy Abraham, Mason Mount, and others, you see stand out EC players become impact EPL players. These players have had more impact at top of the table Chelsea than Almiron has had at Newcastle. If you look at the type of player that transfers in to where on an MLS team (DP, TAM, etc.) from where and where DP and TAM players transfer to, it is obvious that the quality of MLS is probably below the Championship, and probably the top end of the top 10 UEFA leagues.
Right, but these clubs are mostly less than 10 years old. There are people here who seem to think that Atlanta United should be able to do what Ajax or Boca Juniors does. We are literally just starting and those clubs have generations worth of a head start. Atlanta is three years old. I think folks have expectations for this that are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of whack with anything remotely resembling reality. MLS clubs are developing talent in their academies that will run the whole spectrum of impact. From USL level to MLS journeyman level to MLS starter level to MLS all-star level to mid-level Europe level to high-level Europe level. All of them aid in an MLS clubs goals of becoming profitable business and trophy winning clubs. Selling Chris Richards to Europe is a big win. Another big win is developing Victor Ulloa to the point that he was a starter on an MLS Supporter's Shield winner. This is success too...................
So. He is 19, and less than a year removed from MLS is getting major minutes for one of the larger clubs in the world. The argument was that MLS didn't produce players who could make it in the Big Leagues. Well, Steffen is starting in the B1. GKs are part of the starting XI. Almiron doesn't play a similar position at Newcasle, so the comparison is one of apples to oranges. He was in after 1 season. For what? A year? And so? What Championship? So? What does that have to do with MLS's ability to produce players for the top leagues? You're all over the place.
On the flip side, these teams don't have to learn anything on their own. Unlike Ajax or Boca; they can just hire people from Ajax to do it for them. Then can hire the same Belgians that set up Belgium and Holland and France to do it for them. Atlanta tried to do it themselves. Very American to have to re-learn everything the hard way instead of just copy something. They have failed spectacularly. It didn't have to be like that. Moving older players, forcing young players into the first team and onto the field, selling those players before they lose value, these are things only NYRB and NYCFC seem to have a grasp of. I doubt Reyna had a deep understanding of all this, but he had people who he could ask that learned from people that had done it for decades. Same with NYRB. FCD is learning the lessons the hard way, maybe KC and Seattle too. But nobody said they had to do it that way. They could have just hired a Euro consultant or someone from Boca to help them. But they are trying, unlike about 18 other teams. 9 of whom only view Americans as cheap roster filler and 9 others that only run Academies because they were told they had to.
Can we simply track movement to/from MLS to/from good teams/leagues and by year without commentary? year...........To..................From..............Player 2019.....NUFC/EPL......ATL/MLS.........Almiron 2019........BM/B1......Whitecap/MLS....Davies etc.