I think most agree that Maradona 86 were the best World Cup performance to date. Messi seems to get a lot of stick of his. But in reality they are not that far off, one could argue that Argentina 14 didn't have fit attack with passenger Aguero, off form Higuain, and erratic Di Maria who missed 2 of the last matches. That's why Argentina went in more defensive mode, and Messi had to sacrifice the most for his team in that formation. Goal wise, Argentina 2014 was a fit Aguero and Di Maria shy of being Argentina 1986. Both conceded 3 goals into the final. Goals, Messi 4 - 5 Maradona Higuain 1 - 1 Pasculli Rojo/Own Goal 2 - 2 Ruggeri/Brown The difference comes from Di Maria 1 - 2 Burruchaga Aguero 0 - 4 Valdano Furthermore: Valdano 86 18 shots, 4 goals Burruchaga 11 shots, 2 goals 29 shots to 6 goals Di Maria 14 24 shots, 1 goal Aguero 14 8 shots, 0 goals 32 shots to a goal Burruchaga and Valdano also scored in the final, Higuain and Palacio had similar 1on1's but didn't score theirs. Goal wise, considering that one Maradona's goals were a hand goal, I think they are pretty even, both scored important goals to help the team. I think there is arguments for both of them, but you cannot differentiate them too much. Dribbling Messi 14 46 dribbles successful Maradona 86 53 dribbles successful Again they are almost a match, and considering that Messsi played against more defensive teams, with more defensive setup overall, with less space, you can't differentiate them here either. Chances created Messi 14, 23 chances created, 1 scored. Maradona 86, 27 chances created, 5 scored. This is the most telling statistics which points in the same direction, Argentina 14 were missing its fit and best attack. These are the margins that we are talking here, they are small. Put in fit and inform Aguero, Higuain and Di Maria, and Messi's numbers would surpass Maradona 86 surely, and he would have been also more fresh at the end. Please let me know what you think?
This thread should never exist in first place One is real Maradona with BEST WC goldenball vs a copycat version with a WORST WC goldenball winner
I agree completely. While if you take away Maradona's handball both Maradona and Messi are technically equal with 4 goals in reality the quality of their campaigns couldn't be further apart. While all of Messi's goals and assists came against mediocre sides at best in the group stage 3 of Maradona's 4 goals came in the knockout rounds. He also created the winning chance in the final. Messi on the other hand had a total of 0 goals and assists. The only reason Valdano and Burruchanga managed to score in the final was that West Germany was to busy dealing with Maradona. Maradona's Argentina team was actually worse than Messi's and even with Sergio and Di Maria hurt they still had Higuain and Mascherano to score and create chances respectively.
you're spot on ... Maradona involved in 6/7 games (but he did create a chance -preassist in the R16 and that made like 6.5/7 games) Messi only involved 4/7 games and all were in early stages (easier)
"on paper" argument is a good start. Lets consider this example: Messi's goal against Iran, 11 opponents below the ball. Maradona's finish against Italy from created chance 1 opponent below the ball, 3 defenders walking behind. So which goal do you think were scored against better side, and needed more quality?
I see only one player marking (not an specialist defending, btw) Messi. And also another who tried, but isn't actively marking him. So........ there is two men facing Messi at best
All fine and dandy. Why are you not mentioning that Messi played 3 games that went to ET ? That means he played 90 extra minutes. In essence a whole extra game compared to Maradona 86.
Exactly. He is acting like Messi actually "beat" 11 players with that goal. It's a great shot. Actually shows he wasn't being man marked by 3 players was given space to get that shot off.
Yes, and what annoys me is how unashamedly hypocritical he is being. He has in the past played down the merit of chances created as a stat (when it made another player look vastly better than messi), and now it is his best excuse for messi. Really desperate and flimsy argument to say the least.
He did back up Messi at WC2010 ... it was Messi who FAILED him, now 2nd time ... so World Cup 2010: Maradona picks Lionel Messi to lead Argentina's attack • Argentina coach is 'extremely pleased' with Lionel Messi ================================================ and look at the Media before WC2014 ... Messi over Maradona: Why This World Cup Could Be Messi’s 1986 By Eric Gossett June 30, 2014 | 3:36pm Lionel Messi may be one of the biggest names in world soccer, but the Barcelona attacker has spent his entire career in the massive, inescapable shadow of Argentina’s other legendary No. 10: Diego Armando Maradona. Despite his record-setting goal tally for Barcelona, and seemingly endless La Liga, Copa del Rey, Champions League, and Ballon d’Or honors, a single piece of hardware has prevented Messi from capturing the hearts of his fellow Argentines: the World Cup trophy.
Doesn't really matter. In short tournament like this players have an designated amount of overall energy and quality. If players play extra time, it's straight out of recuperation and the energy and quality from the next match.
if Messi was "that good" he would END the games in 90mins ... a la R9 in WC2002 Brazil won 7/7 no ET no PENALTY? LOL
I am not sure what this even means. Are you really trying to say that extra minutes don't aid stats ? Is this your way of coping out of something I pointed out that was so obvious in your world of stats ? Instead of just admitting a small over sight, you come up with designated amount of overall energy and quality ? You must be a lawyer in real life.
Also, from the vids I posted earlier, it seems to me that Maradona was unlucky to not have a few more assists (vs Bulgaria in Part 2 at 1:03, vs Uruguay in Part 2 at 6:26 and vs Belgium in Part 4 at 4:09) due to disallowed goals or plain terrible finishing and another goal credited to him (vs Uruguay in Part 2 at 6:17) for I am not sure what reason. So even the stat comparison is meaningless IMO.
They aid as much as they hinder, when the period is a constant. Or are you really trying to say players are like Superman, don't get tired, and are just as effective no matter how much they play in the same period of time? I also like how after I pointed your obliviousness in statistics, you think you were actually smart, and try still to build your argument forward with it.
The disallowed goal against Uruguay happened after Maradona and Gutierrez tripped on each other while running towards the penalty box, Gutierrez fell like a sack of cement while the lither Maradona remained on his feet and followed the play to score. The referee, incorrectly, called it a foul on Maradona when he was simply the more agile player to stay on his feet.
Opposing players get tired too. Games get sloppy. Defenses get exposed. And since Messi clearly didn't run as much as other players through undeniable stats ... you do the math. Didn't his great assist vs the Swiss come at the end of ET BTW ? I am not arguing with stats, I am poking holes at your arguments which try to draw absolute conclusions from them. Then again if we had those nice GIFs you always make, we wouldn't be arguing about "chances" created stats would we ?
Thanks for the explanation, I had thought it was either that or a late offside call. In any case, let me clarify that those which I mentioned were by no means the only instances wherein Maradona could have had more impact on goal/assist stats, only that they were the most glaring examples of such instances. And btw, that's a ridiculously good pass (at least from the angle shown in the vid) against Bulgaria for what I am guessing was an offside goal.
Wait you're still going with it? You're not really following, players carry the extra fatigue the rest of the tournament, not only ET. Also games get more defensive in ET because players get tired, and it's easier to destroy than create. Also the assumption is normal time, not ET, so players give their most in there, subs are usually worse and so on. Messi created 7 chances against Swiss in 90 min, 1 in ET, and then carried the extra fatigue to the next match. That's 8 chances, more than any other Argentine including Maradona has ever created in a single World Cup match. You're aimlessly trying to shoot something down that you've no real knowledge, and your logical reasoning is awful. One of the strangest things is that you're actually expecting me to prove you right, well in due time.