Manchester, welcome to Zlatan - The Zlatan Ibrahimović Thread

Negative.

 

Comprehension deficit disorder has spread from JamesA to you. Or maybe you gave it to him. You two clowns should get together in a phone booth someday.

I have consistently argued that the primary job of a striker is to score goals. I have consistently argued that a secondary job of a striker is to create scoring chances for his teammates -- which, by the way, doesn't always translate into assists. Ibra, indisputably a 9 and not a 10 or an 11 or a 7 or an 8, has done both. He has scored many goals (28 officially I believe) and he has provided many assists (10 officially I believe). Decent numbers, but admittedly numbers that would hardly raise the eyebrow of Messi or Ronaldo.

What else is Ibra supposed to do, perform cartwheels like Nani?

That Ibra has missed his undue share of glorious chances is not in dispute. He may be "only" on 28 goals but it's arguable that a striker of his caliber should be 35 right now. (Two goals were wrongly disallowed.) Were he at his peak, maybe 50. But we knew he wasn't at his peak when Jose brought him in and even at his peak he was never at the level of Messi or Ronaldo, both of whom I assume are on or very near 40+ goals right now.

What you have to recognize, Teso, is that Jose and the entire world knew that Ibra was near the end of his career when we brought him in last summer and that no one expected him to turn in 50 goals this season. Before the season began if we had been told that Ibra would "only" score 28 goals we'd have all happily taken it, as we would have assumed that Rooney would chip in 10, Rashford would chip in 12-15, Martial 12-15, Miki 10, Mata 10 and Pogba 10-15. Well, it hasn't quite worked out that way and only Miki and Mata can be said to have contributed about the goal-scoring load what we thought they were going to contribute. Rooney, we know about. Rashford, growing pains. Martial, massive disappointment. Pogba, arguably unlucky.

But Ibra has delivered what we reasonably anticipated he was going to deliver. He scores and he creates chances. But no, he does not do cartwheels for your entertainment.

That said, I'm ready to cut the bait and see Ibra off to MLS this summer. The grind of the EPL is like nothing in any other sporting league on the planet and I cannot see how a 36/37 year old striker can thrive in such a competitive and physically demanding league. (We would need Ibra to thrive, not provide cover for Rashford. Otherwise, there's no point in being at OT.) And in the unique circumstances going into the summer transfer window, there are plenty of forwards from which we may choose. The moron/imbecile JamesA believes Griezmann couldn't possibly play in the same squad as Pogba and even if that weren't laughably idiotic there are several other very intriguing options we can look at.

 

Pretty sure that Young has made a case to stay on as a utility player for now. He has provided 6/10 type performances at both FB spots and can play the defensive winger role Jose is fond of.

Rooney and Zlatan are both done and I think Carrick stays if he plays well. Mata will stay unless we get a good offer or we have an elite winger lined up.

 

Do you finally accept that Ibrahimovic is was supposed to facilitate our attacking play?

Yes or no.

 

As unfortunate as this is, it comes at a time when we're seeing that we function much better as a unit with a pacy CF that's willing to run at people. We should look for a more experienced forward with those qualities.

 

Out for 8 months....his career is done imho.

28 goals is fantastic to be honest.

 

We all know that was a make-up call.

 

Like the cyborg returning from the future roam the streets of Los Angeles in search of John Connor's mother so that John Connor himself may never be born, you never relent -- but we all know what happened to the cyborg in the hydraulic press. Though I know I'll never get through to you, I really do appreciate your persistence. You persist with good humor, which can't be said of the resident imbecile here.

First, allow me to acknowledge what appears to be the end of a brilliant career by one of the world's greatest footballers of this generation. Ibra's impact for so many clubs for so many years will not soon be forgotten. (Reports of his retirement have emerged in the last few minutes.) United would be nowhere near 5th nor in the EL semis without Ibra's 28 goals and 10 assists this season. But he's now yesterday's news and we march forward.

Strikers "facilitate" attacking play primarily by scoring goals created by the, well, creators. For example, Ruud van Nistelrooy, a former United player who many considered to be a great striker, was fed brilliant balls by Scholes, Giggs and Beckham, among others.

Let's drill down into the numbers of the 2001-2002 season, shall we? In 50 appearances, Ruud scored 44 goals. According to my best research -- an old thread on the caf -- Ruud had 9 assists that season. Choose whatever adjective you fancy, but there's no question that Ruud was sensational in 2001-02. But it can't be said that Ruud "facilitated" the attack in the sense that you're suggesting that a striker should facilitate the attack. Ruud supplied a fair number of assists, a Ibra did in 16/17, but his primary role was to score goals, not to create goal scoring chances for others. And because Ruud scored so many goals that season, we honor his contribution to the squad with the highest praise possible. And not because he supplied 9 assists.

By your continued insistence on using the word "faciliate" in this context, you either misunderstand the role of a 9 or you misunderstand the meaning of the word "faciliate.

A 9's primary job is not to create chances for his 7 or 10, but to convert on chances created by his 7 or 10. Midfielders and wide forwards, not strikers (also known as center forwards) are, in contrast to strikers, primarily responsible for "faciliating" the attack. Each has a slightly different in the different phases of play, the details of which I won't bore you with here, but their collective effort is designed to create scoring chances for the striker, whose skill set is such that he's expected to score goals on the chances created for him by his teammates. Please accept my apologies if this is getting to complex for you to grasp. You can look up Soccer for Dummies for more information about the game.

And if you concede that point, then where your collapse is in your misunderstanding of the word "faciliate".

verb (used with object), facilitated, facilitating.
1.
to make easier or less difficult; help forward (an action, a process, etc.):
Careful planning facilitates any kind of work.
2.
to assist the progress of (a person).​

The word "faciliate" basically means "to make easier". It does not mean "to accomplish".

Let me give you an example of how the word "faciliate" is commonly used.

Hasina requests Modi to facilitate cross-border power cooperation with Nepal



Whatever it is that Hasina, a real beauty, is specifically asking Modi to do, she's asking Modi to make it easier for there to be power (as in energy) cooperation with Nepal, not for Modi to hereby share power with Nepal.

An attacking midfielder "faciliates" the attack and the striker, you could say, "finishes" the attack. That's why football observers often refer to "finishing" when a striker scores a goal. Football managers demand their attacking midfielders to create chances for the strikers, as well as scoring goals from time to time, and they demand their strikers to score goals, as well creating chances from time to time.

28 goals in 44 games is a pretty decent return for a striker.
10 assists in 44 games is a pretty decent return for a striker.

One may rightly lay criticism at Ibra's feet for missed chances and some pretty bad games -- early in the season when he was still getting used to the speed and physical play in the EPL as well as late in the season when was worn down and clearly chronically fatigued -- but during the middle two quarters of the season Ibra was was on a rampage and carried United on his back.

But he's done now and it's time for United to look forward. But let's not put on Rashford's back the responsibility of "facilitating the attack". That's the job of players like Pogba and Miki. Rashford's primary job, now, is to complete the attack.

 

This all links back to my type of striker question. Ibrahimovic is arguably a 9.5. His secondary role is to facilitate the attacking play as evidenced by his style of play and by his own admission.

The comparison to van Nistelrooy is incorrect because they are completely different types of player.

We also rarely use an attacking midfielder because Ibrahimovic occupies that space and role in the side.

 

Let's use the right words to convey a precise meaning. To recap:

A striker's PRIMARY role is to score goals.
A striker's SECONDARY role is to create scoring chances.

The job of "facilitating the attack" applies to all players and arguably extends all the way to the keeper, about who is expected to provide excellent distribution. See Schmikes, VDS and De Gea.

Whether we're talking about a 6, an 8, a 7, 10 or 11, all those players are expected to "facilitate the attack", certainly moreso than the 9. (There's "false 9s" but I hope we can agree that Ibra was (past tense now) no "false 9".) They collectively dictate tempo and create chances for their 9. Their 9 is the beneficiary of their beneficence in creating those chances.

You need to get the lingo of a 9 "facilitating the attack" out of your head.

Where you would be on more solid ground -- I'm trying to help you get off the ground -- is that Ibra missed too many chances (at least 5 or 6 by my count, a few of which would have been match-winners) and that he didn't create enough space for him running into channels. He undeniably gave the ball away too cheaply, as the British like to say, in his last few appearances and looked a broken player, despite having enjoyed a 2-week rest due to suspension a few weeks before that. But before the suspension he was on a rampage, scoring goals for fun while his fellow goal scorers disgraced themselves with sky balls and squibbers straight at the keeper.

Curiously, you're not only wrong about this silly notion of a 9 being the facilitator of the attack, but you're 180 degrees wrong. Where Ibra disappointed wasn't in his lack of chance creation (two glorious chances alone he created (Rashford and Pogba) in the boro match that won't go recorded in the books and have already been forgotten) but that, despite scoring 28 goals in 44 matches, he scored too few goals, given his undeniable ability. He was robbed of two goals by the referees (the high boot and the offside call) and he failed on 5 or 6 glorious chances. Put those goals on the books and he's at 35 goals in 44 games, at which point any criticism of his overall performance this season would go well beyond churlish and enter into the mendacious.

 

Those are Zlatan's heat maps vs Everton, @ Sunderland and vs Anderlecht. Majority of his touches coming outside the box.

I also looked at the opposition striker in each of those 3 games. Majority of their touches coming inside the box.

 

I don't know why you guys bother anymore. I gave up.

Facts and stats clearly mean nothing to this man. He will just post wall of text in reply, take a sly dig at me, mention Teso and Memphis in the same sentence, and ignore your questions.

It's like clock work.

 

Besides the fact that it's a poor comparison, it's amusing that he would bring up RvN considering part of the reason he was phased out was his lack of ability to facilitate the attack.

 

Also I'm sure at no point in his career did his conversion ratio drop to 14%

 

Okay stop mobbing on gate....he has mixture of good and bad points. Lets not be tribal.

@gatekeeper2...word of advice buddy. You have too many long posts. I know you want to get your feelings out....but in doing so nearly all the time...people will just not read it, and it becomes wasted time on you part. Nothing wrong with a good long post...but if you do it all the time....they are just skipped over.

 

RvN would have 40 goals minimum given those chances.

 

Yo, Karloski is really stepping his game up lately.

 

If the decision is ours...then my personal opinion is that we give him a 1 year extension on a vastly reduced salary. He was the one that held off on signing...so we are under no obligation. It will show respect and maybe he can have a nice send off at the end. If he wants his current wage....then no chance.

 

No thanks. Thats not moving forward. No point keeping him now.

 

That's cus you are a cold hearted son of a bitch, johno.

It's about showing respect as a club. Do we owe him a contact...absolutely not. Would it show respect in the footballing world, if we kept him around to talk to the youngsters and be p[art of the club on a reduced salary. Absolutely.

 

Zlatan has made it perfectly clear from day one that he is about Zlatan first and foremost, and that he'd be more than willing to walk away. That is fine, and he's earned that right, but with that stance he loses any high ground on the club moving on in a situation like this.

 

Who is saying he has any high ground? It's the opposite.