Good shout at explaining the tactics. ”Solskjær, for all his innovation, was undone by the fact that, fundamentally, Liverpool have better players.”
32% possession. Yet the talking heads are claiming that manure should have won. Their 12th man on the pitch was their MOM. Atkinson. The only "good" thing that worked for them. Or the rest of the Prem. was Oly will be around for a while longer.
Although I wasn't happy when he came on. It was a good confidence booster for him. Even playing at his best and he had good moments before he was hurt. He still had trouble putting the ball in the net. Yesterday tho. He did just as much in the time he had as Rashford.
Missed this one due to my Sunday league team playing at the same time (YET AGAIN!). From what I've seen in highlights/read/heard my father scream about over the phone, it was pretty piss-poor from us and very piss-poor from the referee. Very frustrated that we can't seem to pull our heads out at Old Crapford, especially with the current state of both clubs. We're still 6 points clear and responding will be the most important thing.
Always galling when we drop points to the scum, but feel a bit lighter with the victory run over, we can start another one now. Just win the next game, and the next, and the next, etc.
It wasn't horrendous from the on-field ref. What it was was a great example of the seeming inability of the VAR referees to properly assess a clear and obvious error because they seemingly don't wan't to. A few things to consider - Fact: The ref in this instance sees what looks like a 50-50 bump challenge from behind. This is run of the mill stuff and refs tend to sometimes call these, sometimes not. It depends on how much of an overly rough or possibly injurious challenge they see. Likely Fact: Atkinson doesn't see that Origi also received a toe-jab into the calf-muscle as part of this collision - he likely can't see it because he is in a near direct straight line with both players and the line of contact is also slightly blocked by a 2nd United player. Kicks in the calf are almost always briefly debilitating and take the recipient out of the game momentarily, whether he falls or not. (They also usually take you out of the game shortly afterwards for good as your calf stiffens, bu thtis is irrelevant here.) Therefore - once a goal decision is being reviewed for whether or not this was a foul, the VAR referees are aware of this inability of the ref to see what they can see; and crucially - they are also aware of the picture which shows the calf of Origi rippling from the impact. FACT: Being aware of both of these things and choosing to not call it a clear error by the referee (whilst not apportioning blame to the referee because he is not to blame) is an act which can best be described as a categorical abandonment of their purpose for being there (which is supposedly to get decisions within their remit correct).
He might be anonymous. Or he might just have dribbled through and scored the kind of goal he can socre that others can't..... We'll never know .....
No- The issue is that Atkinson can not see the extent of the foul in that instance. That is the absolute fact here. He can't see the debilitating toe-kick into the calf part of the general shove. The VAR refs can see it perfectly and are basically ignoring their own reason for being there. It's a 50-50 call for a guy in Atkinson's position. Not for a guy in a box with a replay camera. That is a foul to anyone who can see it. The clear and obvious error part is obvious because it is also obvious that he couldn't see it.
My main gripe with games liek this is that we are clearly better (witness the last ten minutes of the game. So why not play like that in the first half. If we'd played 80 mins like that we would have won 3-1 or 4-1
I think if Klopp has a blind spot, it is that in these types of matches with (history behind them), he plays the fixture rather than the team in front of him. We failed once again to take advantage of the poor state of the skanks at Old Trafford. Had this been Burnley, for example, which is actually in a higher position and playing better football than Man U, we’d have started on the front foot and overrun this lot. And when we had to, we played very well but had spent 70 odd minutes faffing about to no effect. Still, Klopp is an excellent student of the game. He’ll learn.
Well I can count the number of times he's done that against United on a single, digitless hand. But yeah, it's not impossible. LFC are obviously much better with him. It should come as no surprise that I agree to disagree.
By all means explain to me how Atkinson can possibly see that Origi has gotten kicked? He can't. I re-iterate - all he can see there is that Origi got shoved over. Put yourself into the same position - as I do here.... If I am pushed off the ball by force like that from behind I don't automatically expect or even want a foul called (I'll take it if it's given by a very pedantic ref - but I don't expect it). In a kick around 7s game without a ref no-one would call a foul for that. If I'm toe-kicked in the otherwise same motion by the player then I absolutely want a foul called. In a kick-around game everyone would call a foul when kicked needlessly. Neither of these things says an iota about whether an actual ref in front of me can see the cause of my distress or not. Furthermore - I think we all know that if that was a penalty review, VAR would give the penalty, and we would all expect VAR to give the penalty. (We therefore know, by extension, that for whatever reason the VAR refs are copping out in this case.)
I think it could be called, easily. I also don't think the contact had much of anything to do with either Origi turning the ball over or falling down on the ground, so I've also seen these situations not called, regardless of the view of the ref. So I've seen them called, and I've seen them not called, and I've also seen VAR not give a pen for similar sorts of contact in the box as well. So basically I think you're assuming a few facts not in evidence.
I really want either OxC or Keita to get up to speed. IMHO, our best MF will generally be Fabinho + OxC/Keita + Wijnaldum/Henderson. Note: Henderson is not very useful deployed wide.
More directness and attacking technique out of midfield would be really welcome... which is why it's such a shame Naby has been sidelined by these injuries and his difficulty in transitioning to the prem. He's the guy, Fabinho, Gini, Naby is a killer midfield. That's the best midfield in the league... but it assumes Naby gets up to speed and influencing matches on the attacking end. Ox is fine. I'm not crazy about him, but he is still pretty useful to this squad.
The Hendo/Gini/Fab midfield is great at what it does. They do all the dirty work that allows the front 3 and the fullbacks to be the stars. When it starts to fall apart is when you take one of the front 3 out of the equation (in this case Salah). Now the front 3 is not the same creative force. Then, Man United used their wingbacks to limit our fullbacks ability to create. This is when the responsibility to create must fall on the central midfield. This is when I think Klopp really needs to insert either Keita or Oxlade Chamberlain.
His losing the ball has nothing to do with whether a kick in the calf is a foul is a foul is a foul to a referee every time a referee sees it. I think it is (absent a really odd ref) I agree with you that the ball was already gone which prob aided the ref's decision. But again - your viewpoint is strategically overlooking the lack of viewpoint of the ref who couldn't actually see the kick in the calf. I don't think whoever (maybe me) you are replying to here is assuming any facts. We would have to ask you to show some evidence of a kick in the calf not being called in the box. An actual kick where the video replay shows the calf muscle actually jiggle in response, as this one does. I can't recall one. I say that particular kick is called every time, and your argument about it ironically doens;t have a leg to stand on.....
... agree to disagree. I’m not going to go study footage of not called pens, if you want to claim some moral victory for that feel free. I’m saying I’ve seen it and much worse not get called, not trying to prove something with that statement. you can disagree if you want. I already said I think the foul easily could be called. Moving on.
Good point by Carra. If the ref can't see an incident, the protocol should be for him to declare to VAR that he (the ref) couldn't see. That way if VAR does give the foul, they are not declaring an "error", they are just filling in for what the ref can't see. By contrast, in rugby when a try is being reviewed, you often hear the ref ask "Is there any reason I cannot award the try?". Refs are only human and there is nothing wrong with them asking VAR if they have missed anything!