Making Dutch academies EPL raid proof

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by feyenoordsoccerfan, Apr 29, 2016.

  1. 28 april 2016 – PSV heeft de pas 16-jarige Joël Piroe alvast een aanbieding gedaan. De groeibriljant uit de eigen jeugd kan zijn handtekening zetten onder een driejarig contract, maar er liggen buitenlandse kapers op de loer. Dat meldt Voetbal International.
    This kind of things is fast making it impossible and loss making for Dutch clubs to have an academy and in the end could mean the end of the Netherlands as a football powerhouse.

    So what could we do against it.
    I have a radical solution to the problem, that also could attract Anerican kids with talent.
    The solution is to severe the Academies from the clubs in a judicial way, by making them independent Ltd/BV entities as football academies with all shares in the hands of the club that originally had the academy. All academies should also form a non-KNVB league to play a youth competition. This way FIFA rules on the under 18 players are no longer an issue.
    Kids that have the talent to grow into a professional player will have only one route towards pro football, via those academies. To enter their parents have to sign a contract that the costs of the education is 5 million euro. This will be called in if the student doesnot sign, when offered, a contract with the parent club. If they refuse to do so, the kid will be out of the club and into the normal amateur clubs. Their choice.

    This way the EPL free riders now have to pay the kids "study loan" of 5 millions to be able to attrack them.

    The independent nature of the academies makes it possible to attrack young USA kids, as this is an education with no attachement with the FIFA and thus no commitment to their rules. Many parents in the USA pay ridiculous amounts of money for their kids to play football at in our eyes questionable levels of coaching. Sums go even in the region of 25000 dollars. If you are willing to splash that kind of money, you better spend it on quality. What keeps them from doing so is the FIFA ban. That problem is swept aside by my way of organizing it. When an American kid has enormous potential as a 11 year old, but is going to be processed in the lacking Yank academies and the parents havenot got the money to pay, there are big sponsors willing to cough up the money for potential billboard highlights.

    So my set up safe guards the future of our academies and our way of football and can also be a source of income from students abroad. We have the reputation of being the best in youth development and should now make it profitable.
    What do you think of it and fell free to elaborate, adjust or torpedo it.
     
  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think the problem is that kids (and maybe their parents) want money sooner. Ajax have lost players because they did not want to contract 16 year olds or were too late in making an offer. Fosu-Mensah wanted to stay with Ajax but silly Overmars never offered him a contract. In the case of some of the others who left, they were offered a boatload of money to sign. There is no accounting for the foolishness of kids (and their parents) when they sign for a club like Chelsea who almost never promote players from their youth system. As long as EPL clubs have so much money they will squander it in ways that no Dutch club ever would (except in the case of Leicester City though one doesn't know what success will do to their management. I'm not sure your proposal deals with that aspect. Maybe if Britain exits the EU things will change in that regard. Also remember that Dutch academies are bringing in youth from other EU and non-EU countries already.

    There are American kids who come over to Europe to join youth academies. Michael Bradley started off at Heerenveen. John O'Brien was 16 when he joined Ajax and Jonathan Spector was 15 when he joined ManU (he actually got some first team matches during cup competition). Gideon Zelem moved to Arsenal (he briefly attended the high school that my daughters went to and I watched him play - he was just too good). Jacob Pulisic is a 17 year old who is getting first team play at Dortmund!!! There was a 13 year old who joined the youth academy at Barcelona, cannot remember his name or whether he is still there. It's not a problem of these kids wanting to move to Europe, but the fact that it's a long way from home. Are the parents going to pick up and move, especially if there are other siblings?

    I agree with you about the quality of US instruction. With the numbers engaged in youth football over here we should be doing a lot better in creating world class players. We continue to look for German players who have an American parent to play for our NT.
     
  3. Rinus127

    Rinus127 Member

    Sep 8, 2015
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    In Holland, a player can not sign a professional contract before 16 years. English clubs take advantage of that. It is especially frustrating for clubs that have invested a lot of money and time to the education of these kids. It is also problematic for the level of the Eredivisie.
    Previously, I was opposed to such transfers, but my opinion has changed. I'm not sure that Dutch football school still meet the requirements of modern footbal. When I see Aké or Fosu-Mensah, they are a cut above their counterparts here in Holland. They are much more resistant and athletic.
    In addition, coaches have less confidence in young players for some time. This year, for example, no young player has appeared in the first team of Feyenoord. Alleged talent as Bergwijn Nouri and Schuurman must be content to play with the reserve team. Their counterparts of the same caliber in England, Germany or France already playing at the highest level.
     
  4. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    With respect to Nouri, I really think FdB doesn't like him as he is too forward thinking. I also think that at Ajax any good young player can and does get first team football quickly. It used to be that way at Feyenoord but under Gio things have changed. PSV seem to be content to find Latin American players rather than relying on their academy.
     
  5. Rinus127

    Rinus127 Member

    Sep 8, 2015
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Another parameter of the problem: small clubs are regularly robbed of their best young talent. Which solution ?

    ADO pleit voor hogere opleidingsvergoeding
    ADO Den Haag pleit voor een verhoging van de leeftijdsgrens én opleidingsvergoedingen voor jeugdspelers. De Haagse club ziet aan het einde van dit seizoen drie talenten vertrekken naar topclubs. ,,Maar daar staat te weinig tegenover," vindt hoofd jeugdopleidingen Rob Meppelink. ,,De verhoudingen zijn zoek."

    Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord, Vitesse en ook Liverpool. Jeugdinternational Abdallah Aberkane, nu van ADO Den Haag, heeft de clubs voor het uitkiezen. De centrale verdediger heeft nog een klein maandje om na te denken. Op 5 mei wordt het talent zestien jaar en kan hij pas een profcontract tekenen. ,,Eigenlijk zouden ze die leeftijdsgrens moeten verhogen naar achttien," vindt Rob Meppelink, hoofd jeugdopleiding van ADO Den Haag.

    Met Aberkane ziet de Haagse profclub straks een vierde talent vertrekken. Ook jeugdinternationals Naoufal Bannis (Oranje Onder 14), Kees van Lindert (Onder 14) Pascal Struijk (Onder 17) hebben hun keuze gemaakt. Bannis verhuist naar Feyenoord, Van Lindert kiest voor PSV en Struijk is rond met Ajax voor twee jaar.

    Nu moet voor elk opleidingsjaar 13.500 euro worden neergeteld. Te weinig, stelt Meppelink die ook vindt dat talenten pas op hun achttiende prof mogen worden. ,,Die jongens verdienen meer bescherming. Ze worden vaak gek gemaakt door allerlei clubs," aldus Meppelink die ADO Den Haag op 18 april vertegenwoordigt als de technische leiding van alle betaald voetbal organisaties bij elkaar komen in Zeist. ,,Dan zou ik dit bespreekbaar willen maken."
     
  6. Well, I suggest to make the parents sign contracts of young kids before they are on the radar of the EPL. To join the academy as a kid, and then am I talking about 10-11 years, so long before the selection and educating takes place to be taken advantage of by the EPL raiders.
    So to clarify: I'm talking about making parents sign a contract of entering into an education that costs money. If they donot want it, go and stay playing with the amateurs. There will be no academy anymore within the clubs themselves. So the only way to get a pro level coaching set up to prepare one for high level club play is via the contracted set up I described. So people get the choice to accept they cannot anymore walk out of the door with free education and reaping the benefits, while the club gets nothing or they donot accept it and then have the choice to let their talented kid play in an amateur setting without the pro academy care. When a kid isnot up to the beforehand made expectations, he will not be offered a contract and thus will his parents be free of any costs to pay.
    I am very specific about the whole set up. The seperation from the football league has a special purpose I mentioned.
    So Rinus127, this set up is precisely designed to prevent the 16 year free riders grabbing of the EPL. In the set up I propose the kid that is worthy to sign a contract for the club affiliated with the academy, has either the choice to sign and be freed of the "cut loose fine" or make the EPL club cough up the penalty/education fee.
    And I'm not talking about the quality perceived of the Dutch academies, but about protecting the league from slipping into obscurity when the clubs at a certain point cannot afford to keep an academy alive, because of the EPL raids. In my eyes there is nothing wrong with our academies, but even if so..it can be mend. But when the whole system has collapsed because we develop and get no reward from it, then there is nothing to mend, only ruins.
    So therefore the whole academy thing must be based on entering in it goes with an obligation. And that cannot be achieved within the KNVB. It is like going on a expensive course payed by your boss. You have to pay for it if you decide to jump aboard another company, leaving the payer with no profit for its expenditure.
     
  7. This would be taken care of with my system. It works against any raider, be it PSV, Ajax or an EPL club.
     
  8. So please keep off topic posts away. React to the proposed thing with additions, changes, improvements or flat out arguments why it is unfeasible, but donot clutter it with side way tracks that can be dealt with in other threads.
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think the Dutch clubs are compensated in part for academy players who leave. Ajax have received payments in the past for some of these players. Ajax also pay fees for some of the foreign players they bring in (Eriksen, Fischer, Dohlberg, etc.). Do you not agree that these fees are adequate compensation? I don't know if Feyenoord receives money for those who have left their youth program.
     
  10. #11 feyenoordsoccerfan, Apr 29, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
    Nope, because the academy is only feasable when we see our kids play in the first team instead of being stolen at the age of 16. The cost of the top academies like Feyenoord, PSV and Ajax are only justifiable when the efforts put in place to rear the kids from 11 till 16 result in the talents raising the money to at least play break even. When you look at the costs of the staff involved and the compensation received from the kids poached it is just not enough to compensate for also the costs made for the kids that donot make it. The fallacy in the compensation from FIFA rules is that the cost are spread over all kids as is the income. Most kids donot make it but cost money, so the costs must be made up by the few that do. So no, that whole compensation scheme is a scam.
    When you want to make big bucks via Harvard you pay Harvard tuition money that run in the tents of thousands a year. You want to make big money as a soccer player by attending the most prestigious academies? Fine, pay the money that goes with it. And parents still have the safety bag of being freed from the costs if the kid is deemed not good enough and gets no contract.
     
    Brilliant Dutch repped this.
  11. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    @feyenoordsoccerfan - very good answer and I fully agree. I read the Ajax annual financials every year and they don't fully break out the costs of the academy but the few €s they receive from underage transfers is hardly enough.
     
  12. English lower league clubs close their academy, because they cannot afford the pricetag required by the FA.
    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/22293207
    article from april 26th, 2013
    Lower league clubs worry over youth academies shake-up
    By Chris Doidge

    5 live Investigates

     
  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    ^^no more Jamie Vardys! Of course this means that there will be more raiding of foreign club youth players by EPL teams!
     
  14. Antario2

    Antario2 Member

    Jan 29, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Interesting option, it's the same method the Airforce uses to protect its investment in pilots. It would probably hold up in court.
     
  15. I know, I'm smart and sneaky;)
     
  16. http://www.allnigeriasoccer.com/read_news.php?nid=18885
    Yet another example:
    Exclusive: Arsenal,Chelsea&Wolfsburg Among Clubs Keen On FC Dordrecht Superkid Lateef Omidiji
    Published: May 02, 2016


    [​IMG]
    Allnigeriasoccer.com can exclusively report that Chelsea and Arsenal are among the elite teams in Europe monitoring the progress of Lateef Omidiji Jr, who is currently on the books of the youth team of FC Dordrecht in Holland.

    But what is stopping the two English Premier League teams from going public with their interest is that Omidiji is still a minor and they are patiently waiting for him to turn 16 before making an approach or for the family to move to the United Kingdom.

    Chelsea and Arsenal face strong competition for the signature of the 12-year-old in future, with Wolfsburg and Dutch powerhouses Ajax Amsterdam and Feyenoord also interested in landing his services and there have been enquiries from La Liga teams as well.

    Meanwhile, an intermediary who recommended Juventus star Paul Pogba to the French Federation, says it will be disgraceful if the Nigeria Football Federation miss out on the youngster, with the USSF pressing the right buttons so he commits his international future to the Americans.

    “It’ll be a great shame if Nigeria do not take advantage of his current interest in his fathers country because you see players Alaba, Ibe, Barkley and many good players across Europe with African backgrounds,” the source told allnigeriasoccer.com. “Look at the French and Belgium National teams that are not choosing their dads’ country of birth to represent so I think his case will be unique as Nigeria shouldn’t wait till he’s in the PL or Paris at 17 before trying to get his allegiance.”

    He added : “ I know the Lagos FA Chairman talks a lot about vision for the youth and future, this kid can be the face of that progress and forward thinking. “We’ve always said in France that when Africa gets technical players at a young age who develop early in Europe, the World Cup will never leave Africa.”

    The 12-year-old Lateef Omidiji Jr has been likened to Barcelona and Uruguay star Luis Suarez.
     
  17. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    LOL @ Dutch powerhouses
     
  18. An example of what tremendous good a job the EPL does with our youngsters!
    Of the players that were teammates of Pogba in 2011 and Paul Pogba starred for Manchester United in FA Youth Cup final win in 2011 was Dutchman Gyliano van Velzen one of the team.
    Van Velzen spent three years at United but didn't make much impression. He was loaned out in 2012-13 to United's partner club in Belgium, Royal Antwerp, and returned home to Holland with Utrecht in 2013. He now plays for Volendam in the Dutch second division.

     
  19. thatkid

    thatkid Member

    Jun 21, 2010
    Netherlands
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Isn't Brexit going to take care of this problem??
     
  20. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Yes, but who knows when it will ever be implemented.
     
  21. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I doubt they would ruin a multi billion dollar industry.
     

  22. Wonder if I can count this guy as one to include in the 'robbed' account.
    He's British, but moved with his parents over here when he was 5 or 6. So he's a Dutch product through and through.
     
  23. Oh dear, it is like in the war time. Collaborators rampant:
    From the Manchester site http://manunews.com/
    Manchester United are snapping up PSV Eindhoven’s highly-rated scout, Roy Beukenkamp, as they seek to delve deeper into the Dutch market.

    The Red Devils are overhauling their scouting system with the aim of giving them more say in players coming to the club.


    The Dutchman, based in the Netherlands, will begin working for Man United for an indefinite period of time this week.


    The scout to Dutch magazine Voetbal International: “It was quite a difficult choice.


    “I was very comfortable working at PSV. When the club first showed interest I did not think about it immediately.”


    “Eventually you start thinking [about it] anyway. This is an opportunity that might never come [again].


    “Last week, the clubs reached an agreement. I start immediately”, Beukenkamp added.


    Whilst the national side, desperately sapped of confidence after failing to qualify for Euro 2016, continues to wilt, the constant output of young talent remains untroubled
    . The 48-year-old ex-goalkeeprer previously worked with FC Groningen and FC Twente and only joined PSV Eindhoven last year.

    Can someone by accident ... over him?
    Maybe I should go to the return match with Feyenoord and barren the place down.
     

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