London on Alert - "attack" outside Parliament

How?

 

I didn't say he DID refer to attacks on Muslim countries but that's something that people refer to when they say Islamic terrorism occurs as a reaction to christian 'attacks' on muslims so, again, let's not be silly about this. Attacks on muslim countries can't be called terrorism... they're attacks, sure, but nobody in his right mind would call them terrorism.

As you say, what one could call 'christian terrorism' is largely an American thing. It's hard to think of too many instances outside of the US.

 

No, but you were responding to a discussion about what people call attacks that occur inside the U.S. I guess I thought you were responding to the conversation you were quoting.

 

Lets put it this way. We kind of expect a first generation immigrant not to feel part of the country and to risk being radicalized right?

Because he doesnt know the language or the culture. He isnt used to it or feel part of it, right?

Well the fact is second and third generation immigrants are more likely to be criminals or radicals. This proves that this problem, which Enoch Powell warned us about, is only going to accellerate. It's going to get worse and worse, and it already has, for every generation.

Enoch Powell wasnt your typical politician who only was concerned about the next election cycle. He was old school. He actually had concern about the future consequences way past his own death, which we no doubt are witnessing today.

That's why he made that speech and that is why that speech is relevant today. Because corrupt and myopic politicians created a future that most likely will end up being violent and bloody.

 

That spot was one of my family's favorite in London. On weekends when we had nothing to do we would often take the Tube to Westminster and walk over the bridge to South Bank.

But they lead to terrorism. Maybe we should engage in a little self awareness and introspection and realize that we cannot remake the middle east. By helping all we seem to do is create more refugees and more terrorists.

I recognize this means not assisting people trying to overthrow tyrants like Assad or Hussein in the future, but maybe it was better peace under a tyrant than the peace of the grave

Powell is one of my LEAST favorite politicians of all time. As I like to tell my fellow Americans who see Powell as some sort of prophet, Powell was extremely anti-American. During WWII as American supplies were keeping Britain fed and Americans were dying next to Brits, he was writing his friends that America would be the next war Britain fought.

As for assimilation, I think we in American still do a pretty good job of it. Yes, there are cases of lone wolf jihad-ism, but the Muslim areas of America are probably safer than many other minority areas. Maybe we get the middle class Muslims while Europe gets the poorer ones, I do not know. But by the second or third generation, a Muslim immigrant descendant is pretty much indistinguishable from an Italian or Irish immigrant descendant in life style and outlook.

 

Evidence for this proposition? Statistics, not anecdotes or references to individual events, please. Thanks in advance.


A side question: What do you know of the family history of the perpetrator of the Westminster attack? When did any immigrant ancestors to England immigrate? Also, at what point do the descendents of an immigrant to England stop being "Xth generation immigrants" and start being English the same as everyone else? Do they ever, in your world view? How far does a resident of England have to trace back a family history of living in England before they count as fully English, rather than as some immigrant who's going to make the Tiber foam with blood?

 

That whole idea has some support, though it's wildly distorted and misrepresented in the Right Wing "News" world. Here's an interview from last June with one proponent, in the aftermath of the Orlando attack

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...lando_and_the_islamization_of_radicalism.html

Olivier Roy: The first point is that the guy is second-generation, which is the most common pattern for terrorists. The second point is that, to the extent we know—and every day we learn something new about him—he was not very religious: He was an angry man without a precise cause. One thing that is interesting is that his family was Afghan, and his father has made political statements. But he never mentioned Afghanistan during the killing. He could have said he was attacking the American people in revenge for Mullah Mansour, the Taliban leader killed by an American drone. He could have justified his anti-American stance by referring to events in Afghanistan. He didn’t.

This is a very common pattern among terrorists. Terrorists almost never refer to their own country or the country of origin of their parents. They usually refer to global jihad, not to concrete situations. You can be angry at the United States government for good reasons, or at least real reasons: drones, the invasion of Iraq, and so on. But these guys always refer to virtual, global jihad.

What does that signify to you?

They are not reacting to a real situation. They are not reacting to a real conflict. They are in a virtual war. The key thing about Daesh is that it has evolved to promote a narrative of global or virtual jihad: Daesh almost never mentions real conflicts. It attracts these types of guys who are what I call de-culturated and who never adjust to any society, whether it is American society or any society. It is not the revenge of the Afghans against the Americans. It is not connected to real struggles. They live in an imaginary world.
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I'm not sure it meets your standards of proof, or anyone's for that matter, but it does seem to correlate with MI5's research from the last decade that suggests actual, practicing Muslims with roots to their faith and community are significantly less likely to turn to politicized violence than young men who lack a significant grounding in their faith.

 

It's pretty consistent in most countries. For some ethnicities in Holland, in particular north african and Turkish, second and third generation immigrants have almost twice as high rates for criminality compared to first generations.

While the rates are pretty much the same for western immigrants whether they are first or second.

 

Simple really 2nd & especially 3rd generations are partially to fully integrated, having been born as citizens of the receiving country, but they still catch shit from pissant "native" citizens who don't believe any one can be integrated

 

It's due to many reasons. Mostly due to human nature.

I've actually have a lot immigrant friends, I even had a Close childhood friend who was shia muslim. I can tell you right now, they experienced no noticable racism whatsoever. They had teachers who told them they are just as Swedish as I am (while of course they themselves didnt think that way.). They will confirm this, I've even asked them. Most of us native Europeans have been raised with the notion that racism/intolerance is the most evil thing in the World. So we have tried to abide by that. Because that's the way you get accepted in society, by following social norms.

But they still prefer to live among people who look like them, who share their values. It's just human nature.

The reason why there's less problems with first generation immigrants is because they don't actually expect to be part of the host society to the same degree as second generation.

The second generation when he looks at the society, when he looks at the institutions, when he looks a the ancient statues, traditions or architecture, he instinctually knows that nothing in this society is built by his ancestors. It's not part of his history. It's not part of his identity.

So sometimes, not Always, that will cause an extreme reaction in the opposite direction.

It's just a human reaction to be alienated by such an experience. I would be alienated if I moved to Saudi Arabia as well. It's just normal, to be expected.

The difference is that if I were there as a first generation I wouldnt expect anything other than being alienated.

Just read Putnams study regarding diversity, and it's pretty self evident why this happens. Putnam btw Was a liberal.

 

Yes, in short, these idiots live in an imaginary world that has little to no connection with reality.

That's something they have in common with many other extremists.

 

There's another inconvenient fact for the guy's point of view... that, far from being related to black people, (as Powell said would be the case), people in this country didn't have much of an issue with immigration until the past 5-10 years. The problems that have arisen, (such as they are), have been caused by the level of immigration of white christians, often from eastern Europe, at a time of cuts in public spending and rising property prices.

Interestingly, on a related issue... if we'd had the brexit vote 10 years ago it likely would have been roughly the same as it was in 1975 when it was 2/3rds - 1/3rd for remain.

Still, let's not the facts interfere with a good story, eh?!

 

Thanks, but this not a careful statistical analysis; so, like I said, this is exactly what I wasn't looking for. Do you have some evidence I can look at? You're making a claim about rates, which would mean that you do; can you point me to the source? Thanks in advance.

 

I ask again: at what point do the descendents of an immigrant to England (or Sweden, or anywhere else in Europe) stop being "Xth generation immigrants" and start being English the same as everyone else? Do they ever, in your world view? How far does a resident of England have to trace back a family history of living in England before they count as fully English, rather than as some immigrant who's going to make the Tiber foam with blood?

 

Nope. You sound like you have been radicalised by the right wing press to be terrified of absolutely everything.

 

Look up Stefan Molyneaux video on immigration in Holland. he provides sources.

I told you, the way we were brought up in my school, we were asked to accept immigrants as Swedish as we White Swedish kids were considered. And we did. No one gave them shit.

These immigrants still didnt identify as Swedish. It just doesnt work that way,

I can tell you right now, that a Swedish kid who grows up in a predominantly non Swedish school (we have a lot of those right now.) will face a lot more hostility, bullying, violence and 'racism' than a non european kid in a predominantly Swedish school.

It's not even comparable.

That's the problem with liberalism. it only trains one side to be tolerant.

 

Are you /pol's ambassador and is Moly /ourguy/?

Yeah, you're Swedish...

No, it's only problem is that we don't purge people like you out of the herd. But if there are as many rapes in Sweden as you guys think, things will sort themselves out quick enough...

 

Don't bother ... Least productive 2 minutes you spent today.

 

Sorry, but that's horseshit. You are the one making an assertion. It is *your* responsibility to back it up; it's not other people's responsibility to go find your evidence for you.

I read that. It wasn't an answer to the actual question I asked. You keep referring to Nth generation immigrants. At what point for you do you stop doing that, and start simply referring to them as Swedes/English/whatever? When do they qualify? Is the answer "never"?

I can't speak to Sweden. In the U.S., you get the shit beaten out of you no matter where you are, no matter who you are. The reason for it may vary depending on the circumstances, but the strong and popular will always find a reason to justify being hostile to/bullying/whatever the weak.

 

Hmm I thought this was the London attack thread.
I was just contemplating that a "few" people are tragically killed in London. Resulting in world news.
Yet every day in the US people are shot and killed with barely a byline.

Like today: Man, 27, shot dead in packed Cincinnati nightclub after gunmen opened fire in 'horrific scene' that left another 15 people injured

 

If this shooting happened near the White House or Congress with the attacker trying to gain entry, it would get a lot more publicity.

But yes, we certainly have too many shooting deaths here.