Lionel Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo; better UEFA Champions league career?

Good thing that isn't the only thing he leads on then. And if we are going to measure all of the elements involved in judging a player's quality, scoring goals is undoubtedly and far ahead of any other 'elements'.

And most importantly, all the individual success Ronaldo has had in the competition has translated to success for his respective teams. In the case of Real Madrid, it also meant achieving unprecedented consecutive Champions League victories.

So again, this thread is pointless. Ronaldo is the undisputed King of the CL, no argument possible for otherwise.

 

They were scared. Juve had that disallowed goal 3 minutes in and Atletico knew they were going to suffer. Throw in that their eternal tormentor, Ronaldo, looked like a man possessed, and they collectively shit their pants.

 

You have shown some examples of Ronaldo passing the ball but I haven't seen a real reply to the point he's averaged only 0.1 through-balls per 90 minutes in his career (that lead to a shot) or that for every accurate through-ball five to seven are simply not accurate. You have 'assists' and you have assists.

See discussion on the previous page (there you can also see me again confirming there's a case for CR7 as best European ever).

Furthermore, Messi can break his leg tomorrow and never recover, but what still stands are his higher peaks (and more rounded performances) in the competition during the same era.

Understand consent https://t.co/FDcpDIQzsM

— Para (@Paracelsus) March 12, 2019

 

But that doesn't still stand. Ronaldo's performance in the knockout stage when he thrashed Atletico, Bayern and Juventus is considered by many as the best performance in the competition's history so what is this peak from Messi that you are referring to? Ronaldo's peak brought Real Madrid three consecutive titles. If you're referring to a peak from Messi, I'm not sure if you're referring to a single game because he has no extended peak level that is remotely comparable to Ronaldo in this competition.

We're seeing that it was because of Ronaldo that Real Madrid won those titles. Messi hasn't been beyond the QF in that period of time FFS. Why? Because he doesn't have that nice Spanish NT core from 2008-2012 to help him.

No comparison.

Also, 'rounded performances' aren't an element to be measured because in this case you're holding it as something against Ronaldo, when he does what needs to be done without having to be 'rounded'. If he was more 'rounded', he and his teams wouldn't achieve what they have achieved so that isn't an objective, fair measure IMO. That's subjective preference for playing style.

 

Ronaldo has performances where he is functioning as the chief creator of his team in deep CL KO rounds that are on par with the best ever of Messi
(Check his home performance against Roma in 2007 where he scored 2 goals,assisted once and pre assisted 3 goals to down roma 8-2 on aggregate)

Ronaldo has goal scoring performances that neither Messi or anybody has in the CL era
And he has several of them

Interestingly he has drawn level on hattricks with Lio with 8 a piece
A breakdown of hattricks would show that a significant proportion of those have come against elite opposition for ronaldo and I don’t think Messi ever scored a CL hat trick against a team even close to Barcelona’s level


Edit:
Where is the evidence for this higher peak performance in the champions league?

Is it whoscored that awards Messi a 10 for 1 goal,6-7 midfield dribbles and some lateral passes against some obscure team in the groupstages

While ronaldo gets an a 9.whatever for an iconic hat trick and half a dozen dribbles at the age of 34 years old against Atlético Madrid

Everybody knows what they saw
Ronaldo has been defying logic, at his age
he simply has no right doing what he is doing
The expectation at 34 years old is his goals will propel juventus to a champions league trophy after a 20+ year barren spell

Whether he does that remains to be seen but I can assure you if he does there will be no discussion regarding him being Europe’s greatest ever footballer
He will be period

 

I haven’t seen the breakdown myself but saw some posts online claiming the same thing. Off the top of my head I recall Messi scoring hat tricks against the likes of Leverkusen and PSV so it’s likely true.

 

Also @PuckVanHeel, of all the top scorers by season in the CL history, Ronaldo holds the Top 3 spots all by himself.

While goals may not be the end all be all to any discussion of greatness, lets remember an extremely relevant point: Messi wouldn’t be in this discussion without his goals. He’s actually only in it because of his goals because that is the only aspect of his game that you can take out where he would no longer be in this discussion.

So again, I fail to see what this peak is that was higher than Ronaldo’s.

 

Ronaldo CL hattricks:

18/19: Atletico Madrid, Ro 16

16/17: Atletico Madrid, Semi Final

16/17: Bayern München, Quarter Final

15/16: VFL Wolfsburg, Quarter Final

15/16: Malmö FF, Group Stage

15/16: Shaktar Donetsk, Group Stage

13/14: Galatasaray, Group Stage

12/13: AFC Ajax, Group Stage

Messi CL hattricks:

18/19: PSV Eindhoven, Group Stage

16/17: Man City, Group Stage

16/17: Celtic, Group Stage

14/15: Apoel Nicosia, Group Stage

13/14: AFC Ajax, Group Stage

11/12: Bayer Leverkusen, Ro 16

11/12: Viktoria Plzen, Group Stage

09/10: Arsenal, Quarter Final


Most of Messi’s not only against weaker opposition but many came in the group stage.

No contest between these two in the CL.

 

Maybe I get back to the rest later, but for now this;

Well I'm not the first to make this parallel but it's like placing Gerd Muller ahead of Cruijff. Because of his goals, because of continental trophies, because of top three Ballon d'Or finishes (where neither are superior, but that as an aside).

Now you're right there is a subjective element involved, while goals are 'objective'. But observers aren't totally incapable. As schwuppe says, they see the many semi finals and finals where his team-mates delivered the goodies (like Muller, indeed). They see the many more lucky breaks and fortunate results (meanwhile, for Messi it often boils down to Chelsea 09 and for Cruijff it's always the three millimeters/centimeters offside call - literally - in the 74 qualifiers vs Belgium), some of them only revealed decades later. And another paralel is that consistency in league titles (or runners-up), where 'luck' has less of an influence, tends to go the other way, very arguably.

Messi has a few 10/10 Champions League performances. More than Ronaldo. Is that subjective? Yes. At the same time, I think you should admit as well that Ronaldo has played against depleted sides too (what you correctly said about Leverkusen, Arsenal, Bayern). He just did not capitalize on that to the same extent.

 

Hilarious
You accuse him of making a false equivalence between ronaldo and Messi and then you yourself in the same paragraph make a false equivalence between CR and Gerd Muller,Zinedine zidane And..... ruud Van nistelrooy LMFAO

 

What false equivalence from Ronaldo supporters? Everyone, Ronaldo supporters or not, compare the two.

And it actually is completely the case. Messi's prime years, when he won all those Ballon D'ors, coincide with his best goalscoring periods.
Messi is a goalscorer. One of the most prolific in history and thus a large basis of his legend is cemented in his goalscoring. His best individual and team achievements came when he was the best goalscorer in the world. So it is very much the case.

The fact that he also has other high-level aspects to his play only makes it logical that he's considered by many as the greatest of all time. Pele is considered the GOAT because of his goals. Maradona is considered the GOAT for goals he scored.

Cruyff has his legend status because he was the central and undoubted most important piece of his teams, teams that achieved legendary feats. No goalscorer on his team surpassed him or could lay claim. He's an example where he's more of an exception and not the rule. Muller? He had the likes of Beckenbauer on his team, who he'd never surpass. Beckenbauer is another example where he's an exception and not the rule. Such players, Cruyff and Beckenbauer, are exceptions and thus why they are so highly regarded. Muller, despite that, is still considered by many as Top 20/30 all-time.

Zidane is probably one of the worst examples you could have used because again, much of his legend status revolves around his goals (WC Final, CL Final against Leverkusen).

If you take Zidane's goals in those finals away, he no longer has the status he has.

 

But that doesn't mean Messi's peak was higher. If we accept that Messi vs. Leverkusen is the best performance when comparing Ronaldo and Messi, context needs to be included. Holding that single game in analysis, it can be said it's the best performance. But if you took that game and compared it with Ronaldo's yesterday, which was more impressive? There's only one answer there. And it isn't Messi's battering of a Leverkusen side that had already given up.

When has Messi performed such a similar feat to what Ronaldo did yesterday? Scoring a hat-trick against a side many consider to be the best defensively. And not only that, to do so in a way that completely turned the tie around from a 2-0 first leg deficit?

 

Maradona was like zlatan ibrahimovic in the EC
A serial choker
This doesn’t detract from the fact he is the most gifted player in the history of football but the reality is this

Zidane without 4 games isn’t necessarily better than gheorghe hagi,Micheal laudrup or Dennis bergkamp
98 final vs Brazil
2000 SF vs Portugal
2002 CL final vs Leverkusen
2006 QF vs Brazil

His legend in these 4 iconic performances is wholly based on the goals he scored(or roulette skills and sombreros in midfield areas)

The biggest myth is Messi the archetypal midfield maestro is being unfairly compared to the tapin king
Please cry me a river of tears

Are people being serious
Ronaldo won a ballon dor for the GOAT season as a winger in 2008
He has undergone several transformations but remained just as effective but in a different way
Cruyff vs Müller
Zidane vs RVN
Is a BS false equivalence that has no bearing on reality

 

I appreciate the compliment but I believe you misunderstood my point regarding the goals from those players. I am not saying Pele, Maradona and Zidane are who they are because of their goals. In the case of Maradona and Zidane specifically, that would be silly to say. And when I am referring to goals, I am not putting weight on volume of goals scored, particularly regarding Maradona and Zidane.

I believe my point is perfectly made with respect to your comments on Zidane where I believe you highly underestimate the most important goals he scored, which is why you brought up Frank Lampard. Even then, Frank Lampard is by many, best remembered (and thus why you brought him up) specifically because of his goalscoring rate as a midfielder. But I digress. You state Zidane's goals "helped" his status, that is underestimating the importance of his goals. Frank Lampard never scored goals that led to his country winning a World Cup. Frank Lampard never scored a game-winning CL final goal that is also considered by many as the best in CL final history.

If you take Zidane's goals away, his legendary status is no longer legendary. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great player. But his best achievements were those goals. Because they weren't just goals. They were goals that led his teams to winning the highest international and club competitions. That is a feat virtually unmatched by all footballers in history, and thus why those goals specifically are so highly regarded. Take those away and his status in history is completely different.

For Maradona: Take away his goals at the 1986 World Cup and he is no longer compared to Pele. Why? Because the goals translated to Argentina winning the World Cup. For Pele, take away his most important goals and his teams do not achieve what they achieve.

Those goals are crucial to each of their legendary status because they achieved legendary things. They weren't just "goals". They were goals that made history.

Ronaldo not only scores a high volume of goals, but those goals are crucial to the achievements of his teams throughout his career. Whether it was Man U, Real Madrid, Portugal or Juventus.

Zidane isn't just who he is because of his goals, you're right. Because he wasn't a goalscorer. But if you take away his most important goals, then you take away the aspects of his career that are most highly regarded and seen as impactful. And that is a fact.

 

Messi with 25% of his goals is still
a demonstrably superior player to iniesta
At least twice better and that is a conservative estimate

Ronaldo at 34 years old without his goals is still better than iniesta who is playing football in the J league ok and soon to be retired the last time I checked
Please try to give credit where it is due because iniesta has never at any stage in his career been comparable to CR( with or without goals)

Only some Barcelona fans get deluded sometimes but this is the reality

 

The (false) argument being made is while these players were great scorers they also contributed significantly more than CR outside of scoring

This doesn’t account for the fact that cronaldo is a significantly greater scorer than maradona(and Zidane well let’s not even go there)
Significantly greater to the point were no legitimate comparison can be made

“Ronaldo can score with either of his feet, his head and now he is scoring with the goal at his back
I bet he can score on a wheelchair.”
Ryan Giggs 2008

Secondly he is attempting to diminish the worth of a player who is very arguably the best ever in the art of scoring and was at a stage in his prime one of the best dribblers and crossers in the world(this is a fact)
https://90maat.com/historic-individual-premier-league-campaigns-cristiano-ronaldo-2007-08/
Zidane wasn’t the best passer,dribbler,ball retention specialist,scorer of his own era let alone all time
Maradona excelled at 2-3 areas to the highest degree but then there is the relative inconsistency,lack of titles,the drugs

Maradona shone brighter(to what degree is debatable) but CR shone longer and even if he arguably isn’t a better footballer he is certainly pushing him in the “greatness” stakes

 

I don’t know what your talking about celito

 

What he's trying to say is that winning European Cup back then wasn't as great/important achievement as it is now

 

According to whom?
The EC has always been Europe’s premier club competition
Right now it’s importance has superseded even the World Cup back then it was behind only the World Cup and Euros in importance

Anyways what’s the point
Maradona failed in the EC because it wasn’t important LOL
Like Romario failed in the CL because it wasn’t important and he was “saving himself” for the World Cup
How can people believe this stuff

 

Ryan Giggs has as many Champions league assists as Ronaldo, at more important stages of the competition and of better quality. Cristiano being the top assist provider means nothing other than statpadding. (I'm not saying he's a poor playmaker or anything)

 

So you can stat pad assists?
Interesting concept


4:00

Vs benfica 2006/07
@Bavarian14

 

I don't want to be annoying here but I'd say a (small) part of Cruijff's acclaim was that he could be the topscorer if needed (same for Rensenbrink).

He managed to be the league topscorer, European Cup topscorer (in 1972, UEFA miraculously took away this goal decades later), domestic cup topscorer, and also score for the national team (FIFA once credited him with this, it was the 16 teams era after all). He collected those in three different decades. As far as OPTA has collected this, his shooting accuracy was very, very good.

https://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2012/09/national-team-goalscorers-in-1970s-80s.html

It was not the only way he impacted games, that is right. His winning percentages are more impressive than his goal numbers, but it was part of his acclaim and there are known moments where his ability to score was doubted and he said 'you know what, I will do next game, but our chance for the championship will suffer'.

“I thought my job was to organize the team when I came here,” Cruyff told Feinstein at the time. “Sure, I could score goals. I’m not worried about that in the slightest. In fact, that’s what I’m going to do now. Forget about organization, I’m going to play spectacularly now. I’m going to play football for the spectator. We’ll start winning games. But no championships. If you want to win trophies you have to play organized.” The change was immediate and drastic. Cruyff scored double-digit goals and assisted on many others."

Gunter Netzer (himself a player with a high peak in his time) stated it like this in autumn 1973:



I get what you mean with 'those are exceptions' (I can see the merit of that direction) but still it was something that was in his locker (without taking penalties) and influenced the acclaim.