Lineups, Formations, Tactics, Stats, etc.

That was something I was posting about a month or so ago.

I don't think we've acquired a single player from inside the league since Jesse joined. I think we have only gotten rid of MLS players, we haven't acquired any. Our acquisitions have been either Euro (or in a few cases, Latin American), or promotion from within. That is 180 degrees from the Doyle / Dom years, and it's OK, probably good overall, except that I think you need to cast your net as wide as possible. I think they may be leaving some intra-league opportunities on the table due to a kind of Euro-centeredness and inward focus (promotions from within), i.e. "If it's not Euro (preferably German-speaking or Scandinavian), or us, it's crap!".

 

RBNY, Seattle and Toronto have combined to win exactly zero games in 2018, which is fewer than the Quakes.

 

So ... what did we think of Stahre's 4-4-2?

To me, it looked a lot like a 3-5-2 or even 2-6-2 much of the time. I'm still not happy with the double-pivot setup. I'd be OK with a 4-4-2 diamond, but the two hold mids thing is just not going to get the job done (in my ever so humble view).

I plan to drink whiskey and be patient with the development and progress of our team. We'll get better, I'm certain of it (especially after a couple of glasses of whiskey).

Go Quakes!!

- Mark

 

sample size, blah, blah blah

 

Diplomatic way of saying Toronto is not one of the "most consistent" winning teams. They consistently sucked for most of their existence. And their limited recent success is not due to "local talent" from Ontario, Canada.

I could go on, but my point is that we should not be catering to group-think hyperbole.

 

https://www.sjearthquakes.com/post/...ical-breakdown-quakes-3-mnufc-2?autoplay=true

 

Meh, we generally get one of these glowing "Quakes new offense" articles every year. Last year, during Dom's reign, there were some mlssoccer articles that spoke glowingly of the Quakes interchangeable front 4 and all the movement.

I think Stahre has more different looks than Dom but fundamentally it is all roughly the same thing the Quakes have done for years. 4-4-2 or some variation, with 2 defensive oriented CM's, outside mids pinching in and outside backs pushing up. One example of a new wrinkle is that sometimes he pushes up both outside backs and drops a CM into the back. Either way (drop a CM and send both outside backs or send only one outside back) you wind up with 3 in the back while you attack and go back to 4 on defense. It is just that the makeup of the back 3 is slightly different. So there are some new wrinkles but I don't think there is anything fundamentally different from Kinnear tactically.

Also notice that we more or less went into a bunker 2nd half. That is also Kinnearean, and we almost gave up a 3-goal lead in this game because we bunkered poorly and we had no possession.

And that brings me to my next point. I don't see any indication that Stahre really values possession, which is also a Kinnear trait. The emphasis is on quick counters. To me Leitch was clearly different than Dom and Stahre in that he emphasized possession more, and generally didn't bunker. Yes I know, the awful road losses. But I think with an offseason and a revamped defense those problems could be addressed.

In the end I think the Quakes could be successful with either the Stahre / Kinnear approach or the Leitch approach because Jesse is getting things right at a meta-level in terms of roster development and technical development.

 

Good players can't mask a poorly designed and implemented plan forever. I was wholly unimpressed by Stahre's first MLS game. He got outmatched for more than half the game by arguably the worst coach in the league against one of the main candidates for worst team in the league. I sincerely hope he has more up his sleeve than what we saw, or we are going to watch a team with a lot of enthusiasm building in the offseason fall flat on its face.

I do suspect that if the team continues to produce goals at a high rate, odds are that results will go their way more than they have in the past. It's difficult to score multiple times per game, and doing so is a good way to rack up points. If they aren't able to keep bagging goals, though, the team's shape is going to make it very, very easy for other teams to score goals. As you said, they didn't seem particularly concerned with keeping possession (or worse, they were simply unable to gain any at home against a bad team). Either way, without it, they will suffer goals and they will lose games.

Hopefully the western conference will be as bad as it was last year. In a sea of mediocre teams, the Quakes should have a good shot at the playoffs.

 

Michael Bradley is local talent? I guess Beita was local talent, too, by such definition. Without Giovinco, TFC is pretty ordinary. Another local guy, if you live in Italy.

 

It doesn't tell us anything, obviously. A team even having a bad early streak doesn't tell us anything about their overall quality. Two years ago, I think it was, NYRB had a very rough go for the first 3rd of the season. They weren't scoring goals and they weren't getting results. They then went on to win the conference and be 3rd overall in the league.

Whether Toronto is a good example of a team using local talent to get results isn't even really relevant. Dallas, though struggling a bit lately, really created the blueprint for how to develop players that can contribute to the first team in MLS and it's obvious that it has benefits for all MLS teams.

Buying players is fine, and teams are allowed to do that with more leniency than before. Right now, MLS is actually in a pretty good spot in this regard. They can attract very good players without worrying too much about getting into crazy bidding wars against the top leagues. Sure, they overpay for guys like Dempsey and Howard because they are American, but there aren't a whole lot of guys like that to throw money away on.

Eventually, if MLS continues to grow and spending on players increases, they will have to start competing directly with some of the best league for top talent. When that happens, the impact of bad signings will be magnified greatly, and the need for a good rate of academy graduates will be that much more important. It's important for the long term health of the league that teams understand this. I think most do, which is good.

 

100% agree. There are multiple approaches, but getting the foundation right is the key. We are going down the right path.

 

Don't know if this has been posted, but here is a very good analysis of the tactics Stahre used in the Minnesota game, it pulls together many of the ideas discussed here and argues that Stahre is way more advanced than Kinnear (or Leitch for that matter), isn't simply bunkering and countering, despite claims to the contrary by certain individuals here. We'll have to see how this continues to evolve but at least it gives a bit of optimism to offset the negative tilt.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018...-earthquakes-are-mlss-most-innovative-offense

 

It was already posted and discussed a bit earlier on this page. Here are my comments.

We generally get one of these glowing "new Quakes attack" articles a year on mlssoccer, generally after a win where we score a good number of goals. Here was last year's (from early May).

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017...kes-3-portland-timbers-0-2017-mls-match-recap

"The outcome – San Jose’s largest margin of victory since pasting Sporting Kansas City 5-0 in August 2015 – was exactly what the Quakes were hoping for when they brought Danny Hoesen, Jahmir Hyka and Marco Ureña to MLS this winter.

With their three offensive-minded newcomers surrounding Wondolowski, the Quakes put in a composed and controlling performance, marking their most complete game of the season against one of the Western Conference’s top squads.

In addition to his third and fourth goals of 2016, Wondolowski added another assist of his own – his fifth in just 10 games – to set up Hyka for the opening goal. The quartet of Hoesen, Hyka, Ureña and Wondolowski combined for 14 of San Jose’s 17 shots on the evening, forcing four of Portland goalkeeper Jeff Attinella’s five saves.

“The freedom and the interchange that we have, it’s a great thing,” Wondolowski said of San Jose’s front four. “I thought that we’ve been playing well at times throughout this whole year, but it was nice, especially offensively, to finally click and to see the final result.”

So, you've got 2 defensive oriented center mids, two outside mids who cut in and mix in and combine in front of or in interchange with the forwards. Really the same thing that is happening in the offense under Stahre fundamentally. Only real difference is that sometimes Stahre sends both outside backs forward and pulls back a d-mid, rather than sending one outside back while one CM may contribute a bit more to the attack.

Stahre is not simply "bunkering and countering", he is either high pressing and countering or bunkering and countering (as Danger said, it was either the "high press" or the "low press"). Most of the 2nd half was the "low press" / bunker, and it didn't go too well. As for high press vs. bunker, of course you are going to high press possibly the worst team in MLS at home, at least for part of the game. Dom's team would do the same thing. We'll see what happens against a good team on the road.

What is also similar to Kinnear is that Stahre doesn't seem to put priority on possession. Rather than bunkering and countering with 2 guys, the Quakes could have used a little possession to take the air out of the game, but they didn't - in a big way.

 

Here's another excerpt, this time from Matt Doyle, extolling the virtues of the Quakes attack under Dom at that same time last year (early May 2017)

"The Quakes absolutely pounded a Valeri- and Darlington Nagbe-less Portland team, 3-0 on Saturday night. It seems like Dom Kinnear has hit on something very good in this new, lopsided 4-3-3 with Chris Wondolowski (2g/1a on Saturday, 4g/5a on the year) operating as a raumdeuter and Danny Hoesen as a sort target winger flipping from side to side. They both run off of a mobile and relentless center forward in Marco Urena.

BTW, Dangerfield called this same formation a "4-2-2-2" last May, which is exactly what Warshaw is calling Stahre's formation now (at times). So again, we are not really seeing anything all that new. The idea of playing 2 defensive-oriented CM's and outside mids that cut in and mix it up in various ways with the 2 forwards, either behind them or with them, it is pretty typical of Quakes teams during the latter Kinnear era, and the latter Yallop before that, for that matter.

 

I don't disagree that possession could have possibly been used to take the air out of the game, it was actually frustrating to not have a leadership type situation on the field where somebody (ideally the captain, but he's not a possession guy so...) takes charge and dictates the tempo. Vako was too tired at that point as were the CMs, the rest I don't think could really have done it either.

I think the difference here is you are pointing to one game out of many that Kinnear had, and he get that one clearly correct, I mean the guy isn't a total idiot and was able to coach some pretty decent games. And then we have Stahre, and this is his FIRST game, that is the difference Mr. Jazzy, it's not a selective cherry pick like the ONE game you are comparing to, it is the ONE AND ONLY game we have seen so far, and the worst that can be said about it is that it matches the BEST tactic we saw out of Kinnear last year. Congratulations on your continuing ability to negatively tilt everything but let's hope it starts to look hopeless for you at some point.

 

OK, so I'm "cherry picking" a good Kinnear game (and there were actually several - BTW the Quakes won their first two games last year, both home games, and scored 3 in the 2nd one), but it's OK for you to make a conclusion based on one Stahre game, a home game against possibly the worst team in MLS?

But my broader point is, good results or not, the general tactics we're seeing under Stahre are not fundamentally different than what we saw under Kinnear. I was mainly addressing this notion that Stahre is somehow "way more advanced than Kinnear". There are some different wrinkles, but it is fundamentally very similar. Let's not make it out to be some incredible new innovation. I mean we had the articles about the Quakes attack last year under Kinnear where it was so great, the innovative interchangeability and freedom of the front 4! This is what mlssoccer writers do when a team has a good offensive game. They play it up. They find a reason - make a big story out of it. I can also find the same kind of glowing mlssoccer articles about the Quakes "new attack" from the Leitch era.

Stahre may have more success than Kinnear, but I would also argue he has some better players to work with. Dom never had Vako, who is a game changer, and he never had Magnus, and he had a back line badly in need a rebuild.

 

I hope Stahre wins as many MLS Cups as Kinnear. And then we discover they are clones. I think that would be dandy.

Just win, baby.

 

It would be dandy, but don't hold your breath. It is a lot harder to win an MLS Cup these days. Twice as many teams, and probably 3x as many competent teams. No more "Chivas USA" or inept early days RSL or completely dysfunctional LA Galaxy (or wait, maybe they are back).

 

Jazzy, I think the devil is in the details. The MLS writers are not just trying to drum up views for web content, they are generally looking for something exciting (read: more European) out of MLS teams, so when they see something along those lines they tend to get excited and write stories about it. Kinnear heck even Yallop have tried some "innovative" tactics from time to time, but the idea here is that they didn't stick to it. So you are correct, we need more data before getting too optimistic (though I don't necessarily think playing your second game against SKC in KC is going to be enough). And whether your "possession" infected brain wants to admit or not, a 4-2-2-2 is somewhat of an innovative attacking formation even for Europe. Let's maybe not lament so much any more about the absence of "possession" as THE new style for the Quakes because clearly Stahre is not Pep Guardiola and probably won't become him. I'm not sure even Leitch was such a fanatic of possession for its own sake either. Let's do talk about how teams become more competitive and build winning legacies. And let's do lament about Dom ball when it looks like Stahre has given up and taken the easy/lazy road because there will be some hard times and it will be very tempting for him to do that (even Leitch succumbed to its vile charms).