Some other things I noticed: - I think for Pedernera, you should add the trait "comes deep to get ball" - Maradona's passing is overrated at 20 points, especially regarding for exmaple Iniesta has 18 and Kopa 17 points. I think Maradona should get like 18 points, same as Kopa and Iniesta maybe even deserves 19. - I guess Zidane's dribbling is kind of overrated when you consider dribbling as beating defenders. His unique abilities with the ball are already considered in technique and first touch but i guess in pure dribbling, he deserves something around 17.
I think for Maradona the question also has to be "how was his passing when his overall game was at it's peak?" and then I would take him off 20 myself (comparisons where he seems over-rated in it for me could be Hoddle and Cruyff although I didn't re-check Cruyff since earlier comments and poetgooner has been editing plus he did observe himself more spectacular passing from Diego than Johan I noticed on another thread - anyway I'd already said earlier I thought Cruyff>Matthaus for passing clearly of course). Maradona being level with Bergkamp on passing (which seems it could be 19 rather than 18) might be ok but then Bergkamp's speed is lower than at Ajax, so maybe Maradona in 1986 should have lower passing than say in 1988....? For Iniesta's passing, I wonder whether you'd agree that like for Zidane's dribbling, other attributes can help Iniesta's overall passing/possession game and that 19 might become too high and make him over-rated at wonder passes etc (maybe it doesn't help that there is no distinction between short and long passing, especially as the 'tries long passes' preferred move might not be suitable for Platini/Hoddle etc overall even though IIRC when I tried a quick game myself last year giving it to players like that didn't mean they always tried a long pass). Maybe even the same for Xavi (I don't know if he's been given 20 or if you'd suggest that but I wouldn't be surprised....but then for me Hoddle is indeed under-rated significantly in that attribute compared to Xaviesta too as things stand, in terms of the literal technical passing abilities as opposed to Tiki Taka style moves etc).
I've had a go now at picking Dalglish or Totti for each attribute (obviously I've glanced at the profiles before and didn't pick out massive changes being needed or anything): Corners - Close but maybe Totti Crossing - Close but maybe Totti Dribbling - Close but probably Dalglish (I was thinking of him going slightly down too though IIRC) Finishing - Close but Dalglish First touch - about equal, but ok to still be Totti Free-kicks - Close but Totti Heading - Slightly Dalglish Long shots - Slightly Totti Long throws - Maybe Dalglish but not high Marking - Maybe Dalglish but not high Passing - Very close but ok to be Totti Penalty taking - Totti Tackling - Dalglish Technique - Equal or Totti overall probably Aggression - Dalglish but not mega high Anticipation - Slightly Dalglish Bravery - Dalglish Composure - Maybe equal Concentration - Maybe Dalglish slightly Decisions - Maybe Dalglish slightly Determination - Dalglish slightly for me but ok to be close or equal given Totti currently 20 Flair - Equal or Totti slightly Leadership - Close Off the ball - Dalglish Positioning - Slightly Dalglish Teamwork - Slightly Dalglish Vision - about equal Work rate - Dalglish Acceleration - Slightly Dalglish depending on Totti coming down a bit Agility - Dalglish Balance - Dalglish Jumping reach - close Natural fitness - slightly Dalglish Pace - close and ok to be Totti maybe Stamina - slightly Dalglish Strength - slightly Totti Those are my ideas anyway. Not sure how much it helps doing it that way but thought it might be worth an effort, and obviously others can contribute and respond etc if desired. I'd say differences between them would be that Dalglish, although dropping deep too, would be able to play with his back to goal, resisting challenges better and turning his markers, while Totti would be trying more first time balls (although Dalglish did sometimes too). Dalglish's best position might be second striker and Totti's more in the hole I suppose, although it could be Totti makes the better outright striker too.
It's a bit confusing actually if the 'Static Target Man' trait is related to the Penalty Box Player attribute (the description not exactly seeming to fit that label). But probably overall I do think there is no need to give Van Basten the Penalty Box Player attribute still. It could be related to 'Gets into Opposition area' anyway even? Anyway, yeah, I'd say Law was a more involved player than the attribute would make him (definitely not a 'static target man' anyway) and he can have AMC as well as Striker as a top position maybe (it might be said that is true for Greaves too but maybe it's best he is a striker as per the game but obviously there are different options to pick from when lining up in the striker position including some supporting roles):
Yes, I think playing with the consistency and 'big games' would make it all more logical. Saw today that the author of The Mixer said this two days ago on his twitter: "I think Bergkamp was an incredibly influential player and magnificent the seasons [plural] Arsenal won the league. Also think he tended to drift through a lot of games without really doing much and is more inconsistent than remembered. But a great highlight real." The term 'incredibly influential' is big praise - and he also gives him big credit for his 2003-04 contribution - but yeah, one can do a bit with consistency/fitness despite being among the top three providers of the league in pretty much each season, with almost all of them from open play (and having some 'big' and high rated Champions League games too, there is a 2003 match vs AS Roma where the Italian commentator famously said: "if ball control is taken as an art, then he's the Michelangelo of it"; the co-commentator "he always wants to make a point against Italian teams, isn't it?"). Denis Law is someone for high consistency (more consistent than Charlton and Best by most accounts of that time) but problems with fitness.
Deyna's profile looks good, and curls ball is definitely a good call. Maybe I'd remove tries long passes though, given Platini/Hoddle don't have it. Perhaps dictates tempo and places shots could be good options. Maybe even tries to play way out of trouble could work for him? (I'm thinking of his tendency to be casual and calm on the ball deep in midfield when players are around him - he even used nutmegs and suchlike) I might think his passing and dribbling could be swapped, or at least his passing could go up to the same level as his dribbling. Maybe decisions and anticipation can go up a bit though. For Liedholm I already suggested his agility go up but my other main idea is maybe his passing and vision could be swapped (that would give him a 20 for passing) or meet in the middle. I know he was said to be very accurate and very consistent with his passing. Whether he should have tries killer balls often, likewise I'd not be sure, and same for curls ball. Runs with ball rarely is an interesting call, but I don't necessarily dismiss it as an idea, given his dribbling value will mean he can surprise opponents when he does start to dribble I guess which maybe would be realistic. Maybe arrives late in opponents area would be ok I guess, and perhaps plays one-twos and/or dictates tempo. Feel free to ask regarding specific players if you like Poetgooner (some I'd not be much help on though I think, like Bobek or Rocha, but hopefully others could be moreso).
I'll make another review this weekend. However, if there's no interest in the FM Draft, I'm going to stop as there is really no point in me updating a BigSoccer database. My friends and I have already finalized ours.
Yeah, that makes sense. It seems to be the 4 of us who are most keen on this thread are the only certainties to play the draft too at the moment, but hopefully more might decide they'd like to take part. 16 did seem a good number to aim for, but I don't know whether you think 8 of us could have a go (even in a round robin type tournament if feasible?). It is basically an all-time draft and it has been a while since the last one. Whether some people might like it as a Sheep Draft I don't know, but the criteria would have to be restricted to the database I guess and somebody would have to set it and run the draft (lanman was too busy the last time a Sheep Draft was suggested I think and might still be; I'd offer to have a go but then that takes a drafter out anyway lol). Tagging those I mentioned before @wm442433 @peterhrt @annoyedbyneedoflogin @PuckVanHeel And some others @Lucas... @Tom Stevens @Pipiolo @Twenty26Six Might be worth PM'ing La Maquina as he'd shown some interest in doing some draft IIRC (I'm stuggling to tag him with my English keyboard anyway but I think you managed it ok on the thread).
Maybe I'll stop here for now myself even, but my last browse of the database was to have a quick check on Tigana/Ardiles, having mentioned them regarding anticipation. To be honest I couldn't really fault Tigana's profile at all, and I'd not be sure I'd not be making it worse with any attribute changes lol. For preferred moves I guess runs with ball often and/or tries killer balls often might be worth considering, since often does not mean close to always and it might help replicate his positivity on the ball. For Ardiles I wonder about on one hand making him better as a CM than DM (teams can play with an anchor who is basically a CM anyway can't they, and in effect that's what Tottenham did with him in a diamond system too), but on the other hand making him a bit better at some competitiveness aspects (not upping aggression by loads but slight increases I guess in tackling and other things like that, plus perhaps anticipation a bit although overall I guess it's ok for Tigana to have the maximum there and Ardiles a bit below and in Ardiles's case especially I was thinking as much or more in terms of his anticipation when gaining possession and doing something with the ball, as the defensive side). Maybe one-twos for a preferred move, but I'd 100% definitely take away tries long passes for him (he could certainly be good at mid-range through balls to on-running players but didn't use a lot of long passes in general).
I'd like to join in but I think I am not as familiar to the mechanics of the game as some of you, to build a complementary team.
It's a good point. If I understand correctly poetgooner was willing to take care of some details of setting up the teams to play, having seen the line-ups as desired by the drafters. Maybe he could also provide some links to role descriptions (for trequarista, engache, regista, raumdeuter etc etc) so that drafters know how their ideas can be converted into the game and give input on that themselves. I can see what you mean in that it might seem like it would help to have played the game recently, but I think poetgooner feels that formations/tactics that a drafter would normally set out (before voting) can be easily transferred into the game, with his help if necessary. With 18 man squads and varying opposition teams to play then the choice of line-up would likely change a bit between games too I suppose. I think the gameplay would likely be fun, and hopefully wouldn't need to be taken too seriously as some sort of definitive call on who had really made the best team/squad but it would make an interesting change from voting in list form anyway. As long as we get the database decently realistic in terms of player attributes, ideal roles etc, I think it would be good to take part in. And like poetgooner says we can at least see the profiles before making our picks (so will know if a player might not be quite as quick as we personally think he could be, or if a position we have in mind for him might not be a great idea etc). I remember you said after the 'B' Draft you might like to do one one day. This would be a bit different to that I suppose, but the drafting part would be similar, but with all the best players available of course (but still quite a lot of less famous legends to pick from which would be necessary with 18 player squads if we did get as many as 16 drafters....but like I say maybe going to 8 teams as per the old Euros...but even in league format potentially, might be ok too anyway IMO).
I think we could do with 8. That's still easily 7 games minimum for each team. The problem, of course, is that with 8 teams everyone has a super team, which makes it less interesting. The draft is interesting when you start to have to pick lesser legends, but you can make them outperform the Peles and Maradonas of this world by making better use of them. But yeah, I think we can do with 8. Honestly, we can do with any number. Just some teams will get less/more games than others due to unequal groups.
No worries there man. Most of the people I usually play with don't actually own the FM game either. They don't need to, to do well. The game is very intuitive. You just need your basic football knowledge. You can easily apply your general football knowledge to the game. You know that if you have Garrincha, you need a defensive RB because he doesn't defend as much. You know if you draft Xavi-Iniesta, you play a short-passing game. You know that if you play counter-attacking football, you need accurate passers from deep. You know that if you play with no wingers, you need marauding wingbacks. You know if that you have a playmaker no.10, a poacher is better than a targetman. etc etc.
I really hope that there will be some others interested in the draft, because i really love the idea of this kind of draft, and i don't have friends myself interested in this at all, which is very sad admitedly. I guess everyone participatring in this forum has basic ideas of tactics, which are really easy to transform into FM. I also think that you are right saying that this might enlarge the fun of a draft, as in a normal draft the evaluation of the teams and tactics by other users is not very comprehensible, but very subjective.
Gianfranco Zola isn't in the game (don't say he should) but if he was I think he merits a 20 rating for free kicks. His free kicks per game ratio is stunning, and since he didn't necessarily play for the best teams, his free kick opportunities were also relatively limited. Zola is #2 all-time in the premier league and also 5th in Serie A since 1980 (in way fewer games, he spent only 8 full seasons in the Serie A; in EPL about 6.5 full seasons). It just came into my mind and started to check the numbers.
I guess with Puck and yourself (I assume you can play and if necessary PM your tactics/line-up to a 3rd party before each game and before your opponent PMs yourself....if that's the way we do it) we are up to 5 now. As you can probably see, I linked your sign-up thread on a couple of the relatively older Tactics & Formations threads from previous drafts now, so possibly that might help recruit some more participants.
I'm not gonna play. It's enough work running the draft! lol I'm confident we can find the players, if there's enough effort to get the word out there.
Just starting to look at the database again, specifically checking out a few right wingers: - I tend to think curls ball might be more suitable for Figo than Matthews actually (maybe others have a different idea though). - For Figo and also Littbarski I think AML should be added as a good position, and maybe also striker for Littbarski (due to the options for playing as a central attacker, not because he'd play as a typical striker of course - for example during the 1982 World Cup he was sometimes playing as a support attacker alongside Fisher even though he would roam to the wings a lot of course). - Maybe for Littbarski runs with ball often is better than runs with ball down right I think, and I'm not fully sure hugs line is a good option for him (I think it is contradictory with cuts inside isn't it, so he wouldn't have both, but maybe he should therefore have neither....?). - Maybe cuts inside is a good one for Johnny Rep though.
For Boniek: I think AML should be added, probably with a higher rating than AMR but possibly less than AMC. Striker too feasibly I think. He did play as sweeper late in his career, as did Liedholm I believe but maybe it's not necessary to add given that he'd be deemed to be younger than he was when he played there (theoretically capable of it, but inexperienced at doing it I suppose). Attribute wise I'd suggest a trade-off without changing the rating (much anyway) could be increasing acceleration and agility by a couple, but reducing passing and technique perhaps. For Voronin: I saw him doing a great marking job in effect vs Eusebio, and I think marking and anticipation going up a couple could be offset by reducing aggression and vision.
Going back to AMs/forwards, I can certainly suggest Rivaldo's pace/acceleration goes down to more like Rui Costa level I think (maybe Rui Costa's can even go up and slightly above Rivaldo's even, but probably I'd make Rivera quicker than Rivaldo anyway). I think with 19 dribbling and the pace shown currently he'd be slicing through teams from deep on long runs much more than he could do, and unless I have the wrong impression I just don't think he ran so quick anyway (whereas Ronaldinho did I would say indeed). I wonder whether 19 is too high for dribbling, but as with some other attributes, like technique, I guess it seems more reasonable when thinking of Rivaldo in absolute peak mode (maybe his consistency can be not too great though, and maybe concentration even down a bit but possibly with composure up?). I do think Rui Costa's first touch can at least be matching Rivaldo's though myself for example too (really nice choices on Rui Costa's preferred moves though I think). Sandro Mazzola's preferred moves also seem good to me, but I think while dribbling might come down just a touch, finishing and probably flair too can go the other way. Maybe work rate up and aggression down too?
I'm not assuming everyone will be agreeing with me on all this stuff regarding recommended changes btw, but am trying to keep it to stuff I have a clear view on. Socrates is one I do have some ideas on too - I guess dictates tempo and tries killer balls often could be good traits. And I'd lean towards lowering all of dribbling. aggression, work rate and pace, while upping all of finishing, flair, vision and agility a bit. When I said Ronaldinho's speed stats seemed ok, I meant really that I'd not see them being downgraded by a lot (unlike Rivaldo's), but in a comparison with Rummenigge perhaps being behind as much as 3 points on acceleration and slightly on pace too would seem realistic to me. Gyorgy Sarosi is a tricky one to create surely, but unless the old footage is misleading maybe his acceleration can go up a few. He can probably be really good in all selected positions anyway I'd think, and maybe with AM as the best (it seems currently it is CM, although his description does call him an attacking midfielder), or striker.
I think the point brought up about Zidane's dribbling might apply in some ways to some others too: I think his ball skills were great, but for pure dribbling (even taking out pace/agility as factors) probably Hoddle can come down for that if I didn't suggest it already (mostly I suggested some things go up for him I know). Netzer maybe slightly too. Riquelme I guess, and it can depend a bit on which version is created as the young turn of the century one at Boca might be I guess more justifying a good dribbling rating than the Villarreal version? Just as relatively young Shevchenko would be worth a boost in dribbling I think certainly (again even taking out the agility/speed aspects as they are decided separately) - perhaps a swap with Raul for dribbling would be ok anyway (although Raul at times showed some nice dribbling - not least when he scored the goal vs Atletico early in his career but again I guess he's not deemed so young in this draft)? Maybe Raul can have lobs keeper (while places shots might be in doubt just because he reasonably often would drive the ball too?) as a preferred move, and Sheva runs into channels perhaps? I like Rensenbrink's agility rating, complimented by an also very good but not quite so high dribbling rating. That makes complete sense I believe. But I reckon composure might go up a bit (while maybe crossing rises slightly too, but I've wondered that for a few players I think including Savicevic as 13 is not much above the average player I guess) while aggression comes down (I know maybe aggression is a descriptive attribute re: style and wouldn't offset composure in terms of overall rating). I also wonder about switching the values for dribbling and long shots for Overath. I could be wrong but I even tend towards thinking Overath might've been better than Netzer with long shots. Maybe I will stop here now though to give Poetgooner chance to take stock of all previous comments etc. Hope overall I'm being helpful rather than muddying the waters!
I appreciate all your comments man. Especially with the draft happening soon (Monday seems like a good time) we are looking at the final changes.