Las Vegas is viable

Oh k, fair enough, deserve was a bad word to use. What makes you (or Mr. Garber) believe that LV will support over any of these cities? There is no LV sports market, there are LV sports fans, and a healthy majority of the population aren't from the area and are rooted to other teams/cities/markets. And here are more tourists than local population anyway. Its gonna end up being like when the Yanks or BoSox play in Baltimore. I mean, it looks like Bmore, sounds like boston. LV will never have a legit home game.

And then who wants to go play under those conditions? No one who has other options

 

the only question in anyones mind is if the expansion can make money or not make money. In this market it is impossible to tell, but if done right there is a good chance that the investment can make money.

A 150M outdoor mixed use stadium in Vegas would be unique, it could offer year round entertainment in ways that the city can't offer right now. There is no doubt that if you find lots of rentals for concerts and events and would make money. I would guess that a 20k stadium with a stage near the strip would make more money than any other SSS in MLS.

As far as how many people will turn up to games for a Vegas club it is tough to say. The metro area is still 2X SLC and doesn't have a single pro team. People think the 2M people in the metro area all live on the strip and work as bartenders and cocktail waitresses working from 6pm to 6am every night. Sure there is an industry around gambling but there are a huge amount of people who just live and work there outside what we think of as 'vegas.' It would also have millions of visitors each year lots of them from out of the country in places where soccer is much bigger. The traveling costs to Vegas games would be the cheapest for most fans allowing for lots of traveling support. No one knows for sure if the club would be a success but the same can be said about any club that has yet to be formed. But if done right the club could indeed be a valuable investment, and because of that I think they will remain on the radar.

 

I doubt MLS is interested in a team who would rely on concerts to stay afloat

 

I doubt "people will come to concerts at the stadium we build" was a point any potential owner made to the commish when being considered for expansion. In fact only one of these teams was not an original and a stadium plan wasn't really top priority at the time of RSLs expansion anyway

 

You may doubt, but you are wrong. One of the main reasons for the whole SSS push was about teams/owners being able to controll their own revenue streams. Hosting events outside of soccer is a huge moneymaker for every MLS ownership group. But I get it, you're against LV for several reasons and there's nothing anyone is going to say that's going to get you to change your mind. You simply discount anything anyone says based on your own thoughts or opinions. People here are referencing data and facts. You are referencing what's going on between your ears.

Healthy majority of the population, eh? From '96 to '06 the percentage of residents relocating from other counties or countries averaged around 8% while the percentage of resitants moving away was around 5.6%. Yes, that's higher than the national average by quite a bit but how in the world doest that make a healthy majority? Your preconceptions are wrong.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/county/Clark_County-NV.html#ixzz0pt1oQLtK
http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-West/Las-Vegas-Population-Profile.html

There's no data there but we all know that that migration has slowed down recently, too.

And just because people move from somewhere else doesn't mean they won't support the local team. Heck, a lot of transplants will in order to help them fit it. The league isn't even 20 years old yet. And while the Vegas population has grown recently the biggest increases happened in the '90s when MLS was just starting. Yeah, there might be some holdouts that will never "switch teams" but those same holdouts have been waiting for years to be able to see their team. You can guarantee they'll go when they're in town. And that's not a bad thing.

More tourists than local population? Are you @#$@ing crazy? You realize that tourists aren't counted in population data, right? Are you honestly saying that there are over 2 million tourists in LV on any given day?

Bleh, I shouldn't even bother.

 

Since MLS is a growing league, why would they risk hindering that growth in an untested sports market? Now the 4 major sports leagues in this country are not still in the same stage so moving to new sports markets isn't as risky, one of them might want to attempt it, until then MLS will not go for it. Now, its very easy to pound out population stats and prove your point that LV is "viable" However, there are at least 10 cities in line before LV that will inevitably get teams before it. So, until pro/rel is implemented in the country, LV will not see top level soccer, sorry.

If I hear otherwise from a credible source or Garber himself, I will admit my defeat and offer an apologies to all of you, until then a couple of bigsoccer posters are not going to persuade me otherwise, as I do not expect to do myself.. Its a dead end really.

 

its viable enough.

salt lake wasn't exactly the most 'viable' soccer market in the US when they joined the league. Rich ownership group+big city+stadium conversion or SSS and you are in. It is the truth and we all know it. 2M metro area for Vegas plus all those visitors are enough to peak the interest of the league making it viable, if the money is there then they are in. If it is not there they won't get in. Queens, STL, ATL, Miami these are all big markets and are also 'viable' but without the money it won't happen. What we can all agree on if we like it or not, is that with enough money backing them Vegas gets in. I don't think there is money there so I don't think it happens, but if its there they will get a spot.

 

Of course, if something can be done, it would have been done already. No-one can ever do something for the first time.

There's no such thing as 'deserve'.

 

Yes but salt lake also had a sports market to work with, LV doesn't. And the fact is, salt lake had what it needed to get in, LV doesn't. Now, if salt lake was trying to come into the league now instead of when they did, different story. And Queens ( s much as i hate it ), St Louis, atlanta and miami are way wayyy more likely to get that money than LV

 

I don't know if I agree that Queens, ATL, STL, or Miami are more likely to get their money together before Vegas but you have to agree that if they get their money together they are in. 2M metro plus money is enough for MLS. SLC is only 1M metro. It may not be proven, but it is an open sports market and for a sport that is clearly #4 as far as team sports, finding 2M metro areas with large hispanic populations and not a single major league team is at least interesting enough to make it viable. But it will all come down to money. And if you've been watching long enough this expansion race has been VERY tough to call. If you have been a fan for a decade you've seen Cleveland being a lock, and Rochester as well. And we've seen cities like Salt Lake or from last round Ottawa just come 100% out of nowhere. The truth is that a city like Vegas or any other major league city (Sacramento/Indy/Milwaukee/Charlotte...) will become viable tomorrow if they get money and a stadium plan. The moment Vegas gets their money/stadium together they are viable, if they don't they won't be viable. But history has shown that it is tough to call.

 

So it's an untapped market?

That thing needed, being an investor.

 

I wouldn't call it untapped, I'd call it more nonexistent. And when SL got in, an investor was all they needed, an investor willing to shell out significantly less money. Now, if you don't have someone willing to put out at least $150 mil, no sir.

 

i hate when people get all wikipedia on someone but... here is a quote I pulled form wiki

"Florida Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria described Las Vegas as "a potential gold mine" for a professional sports team owner. Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban has also been quoted as saying that Las Vegas would be a good professional sports town."

There has also been talks of the Sacramento Kings moving there. If I were a betting man (no pun) I would put money on an NBA team in Vegas in the next decade, and the Kings make the most sense unless a team like the Grizzles just decide to move again and rebrand.

The point is that major league owners (multi sports) have said it was viable for leagues with much bigger draws than ours. The truth is that no market or any business in general can be totally calculated as a 'sure thing'. Demographics and statistics are good guidelines but it isn't enough. I'd say (and so does MLS and various major league owners) that Vegas is viable if done right. If the city is ever going to get a solid bid together is a huge question mark, it is probably somewhere around 1% but I don't think this city itself is a disqualifies it. Until we know the details of a future bid we will not really know if it would be successful or not.

 

Las Vegas locals are desperate for some kind of major sports team. I think whatever they get will be really well supported, even without any kind of pro team history. The NBA makes sense because they don't seem to be afraid to put teams in untested pro markets (OKC, Portland, Sacramento, Memphis, San Antonio, etc).

I think they could make MLB work there too. Casinos could buy thousands of baseball season tickets and issue them as comps. Tourists would come in to watch a series with their favorite team.

They will need a privately financed stadium though, no casino that has built their own sporting venue will ever let Clark County get away with funding a competing venue. Maybe if there is a no compete clause or something.

 

So your argument is 2 people, that have nothing to do with the sport, say that its a potential sports market? All your arguments are theoretical, not practical, there is no potential owner that has stepped in and said "I want to bring an MLS team to LV", Don Garber has never mentioned Las Vegas, now correct me if I'm wrong. Until then, there are at least 5 cities that are going to get teams before LV, and I doubt we're going past 24 for a long time.... So hang tight.

 

Im not from Vegas, nor am I rooting for Vegas. I just want MLS to grow, add teams that will support the league and expand the footprint so we can do better on TV so MLS can sell more ads, make more money, and afford to buy better players. That is all I ever wanted. I have seen candidates drop from nowhere (Cleveland) and candidates come from nowhere (Salt Lake). The expansion game is a tough thing to call, I am not predicting anything I am simply saying that Vegas has enough in market value that MLS would go for it. It is big enough, and is in untapped for Pro sports, and is attractive for star players. MLS would like Vegas. Other owners in other sports like vegas, but Vegas hasn't gotten into other sports not because it couldn't support it, but because of gambling. Garber has publicly said that it is not an issue with MLS. In the past there has been talk of a bid. There was talk of buying the Crew as well. I have NO IDEA if these bids will ever come back, like I said I am not pulling for Vegas. I am only saying that it is a viable option, and that statement has no reflection on the viablity of any other market. It will be first come first serve as far as signing checks. Vegas is a good enough market, that if they sign a check they are in. But I would probably put it at 1% that it happens.

 

No owner has stepped in before, eh? Garber's never mentioned Vegas, lol. You're wrong, so let me correct you.

Ok, here's one person that has something to do with the sport:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/mar/25/investor-las-vegas-still-ideal-soccer-expansion-te/

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2007/may/31/35-million-bet-on-pro-soccer/

Now, I'm pretty sure that group fell through, but the reasons were things outside of the location of the team.

As for Garber, he's mentioned Vegas before over the years:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2006/mar/28/goodman-may-warm-to-soccer/
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jul/24/las-vegas-still-running-mls-expansion/

 

I was responding to the guy that said Garber's never mentioned Vegas. I didn't say that we should believe a word Garber says.

I don't have a problem with you billy. At least you back your arguments up with facts or rational dialogue and don't make absurd claims or use hyperbole. That can't be said for everyone in this thread.

I mean, seriously? It's one thing to say that you don't feel Las Vegas is viable and a good choice and then debate reasons why. But resorting to straw men, moving targets, etc... Ahh forget, I'll just use the ignore button on him.

 

We know for a fact that other leagues have said no to Vegas because of gambling. And we know this isn't an issue with Garber. If the NBA was cool with Vegas, they would have a team by now no doubt, it has nothing to do with the market at this point. I was brining up actual quotes of owners who showed interest in vegas.

But as a STL guy you should know more than anyone that it still comes down to money and it will for a long time. Miami was contracted, had a USL team drawing a few 100 people, and they went from having no bid to almost having a team once the money and the barca brand showed up. That is the truth about MLS, decent metro and money is still enough. STL is only as viable in Garber's eyes as the guy signing the check, it has little to do with anything else. IF Garber sells the #20 spot to NY for 40M and the next day Maloofs call and say they want another spot and offer 50M, you actually think Garber wouldn't sell it? You think this 20 team limit is legit? You think this talk about test sports market matters? The moment that sale goes through it pushes the going rate of every franchise up to 50M a 10M each and over 20 teams that is a 200M increase in value. That is nothing to shy away from. Garber doesn't care about what FIFA wants, Garber cares what his ownership wants. And what they want is profits. Profits won't happen until they have eyeballs on TVs. And right now MLS is in 1/2 the markets of other major league sports. Expansion is going to happen and keep happening way past 20. Anyone who believes anything different and quotes Blatter is nuts. MLS will take anyone that can help with national footprint and help them make money. Vegas can do that, but it won't be a Vegas or STL or Miami or Queens or ATL. It will be who goes first, who gets their money together first. My guess is Vegas won't get their money together and won't happen for a long time. But if Becks gets interested in Vegas then it is in play. But people get offended (see NY2 debate) when anyone supports one city because they fear it will take away from their cities chances. I don't buy that. I think at best it will only delay it. Once cities get their money together, then MLS will let them in.

 

1000% agree. People get so caught up in what Garber says when he is making sales pitches to cities. I wonder if they really believe it when they hear commercials that say 'call in the next 60 seconds and we'll throw in a a free gift!!' That sales pitch is exactly the same as what Garber says, 'Act now because these franchises are going fast, we are going to stop after this next one so hurry up and send in your checks!!!' Could you imagine if the guy really went to cities and said 'Well we will never really make any money until we get a big TV audience and we need to be in lots of markets to do that so...honestly guys if you don't send in a bid this time we are probably going to get around to you sooner or later.' What would city council members think when voting on funding stadiums? This is all a sales game, MLS is going to be at 30 teams just like every other US sport because well this is a US sport. In the US it is all about TV revenue and since the US/Canada is going to be approaching 350M soon to compare this league to others in Europe 1/10th our size is silly. And Fifa can care less. Fifa does not and will not get involved in domestic club matters. I see Vegas and STL and ATL and Tampa and Miami all getting in. The question will be 2012 or 2022. But it will happen someday no doubt.