Korea and Iran

Posters who read this thread will decide who is man enough to answer all the questions that are thown-at including some "cherry-picking" nonsense and who is NOT MAN enough that keeps avoiding the obvious arguments at hand, making this thread a yet-again-boring-WR-type one.

 

This is not a WR-type issue, it is a matter of your credibility. If this was a court house, you would have been thrown out by now , for your lack of credibility.

 

Okay, that's fine if that's your excuse for avoiding the argument. As I said, you're the only poster on this very thread that is trying to de-rail the topic at hand by resorting to "cherry-picking" and "finger-pointing" tactics which is incidentally always used by you whenever you don't have any valid counter arguments to back up,

If it makes you feel better, you can believe that the post I made on page 3 (see below) is all filled with lies and propaganda tactics created by the enemy Korean. Whether that is credible or not, posters reading this thread can decide it by cross-checking it from Wiki, RSSSF, Sporton (Korean media which had covered an article about Korea's history in the past Asian Cup), FIFA site & AFC site. As a matter of fact, all the factual info I had provided on that very post were all obtained from those aforementioned sources.

 

1. It has become obvious to everyone here by now that you play fast and loose with facts. You've been caught making things up. (Example#1, Example#2)
   
   
2. No matter how you spin it with your various excuses, as the objective statics prove beyond any doubt, your SENIOR national team's record in Asia is inferior to that of Iran, and you are ranked below Iran in Asian Cup, Asian Games, and overall head-to-head record. You need to swallow your K pride, and admit that you are not as good as Iran, Japan, and Saudi Arabia on the continental level.

Asian Cup All-time


Asian Cup Titles


Asian Games Medal Standings

 

Good. At least, now you're improving. You've stopped the cherry-picking tactic and are now brining up some of your counter arguments. Glad to see that,

You've brought up two counter-arguments; Asian Cup and Asian Games records,

Unfortunately, those had been already discussed in the earlier pages from both KF & me.

But, just to recap,

As for the Asian Cup performance, you're totally ignoring the fact that Korea had been sending its squad primarily made up of semi-pro/university players from 80 AC ~ 92 AC. Even with that taken into account, Korea's Asian Cup achievements are nothing short of "embarrassing" as you may want to put it compared to Asian powerhouses as their overall ranking in the Asian Cup stands at #2 according to RSSSF. That link you posted is the ranking based on PPG which is rarely used by a credible source. (See Israel's example here as for why; https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22305466&postcount=28)

Also, at the end of the day, both Korea and Iran have no bragging rights to call when it comes to Asian Cup as they both have failed to win the championship since 1976.


About the Asian Games performance, that had already been pointed out earlier. To recap it though, Korea is ahead of Iran in terms of total medals gained (9 vs 7) while Iran's ahead of Korea in terms of titles gained (4 vs 3). So, in terms of consistency, Korea have the upper-hand over Iran. As a matter of fact, since 1986 Asian Games, Korea made it to the last 4 at all of the Asian Games tournaments with the exception of Bangkok Asian Games in 98.

About the Head-to-Head record, this had also been pointed out earlier. Superior head-to-head record against other Asian nations is not a correct measurement of defining its dominance in Asia as most of the results DO contain meaningless friendly wins. Otherwise, I don't understand why Iran always fail big time against Asian nations when they actually play meaningful matches? To add more, Iran's head-to-head record against Korea is 9W 7D 8L which is only 1 more W gathered for Iran. (You're once again failing to point out that two of Iran's wins were obtained by beating Korea that were made up of U-23 squad once and another one was against a Korean squad that had 5 U-20 players) - You can tell me all these are pathetic excuses since friendly is normally being used to experiment players. That's totally the point I was trying to deliver; Head-to-Head record which includes some meaningless friendly wins hardly holds any merits when someone wants to claim its dominance against another nation!

Hence, your comment, "Korea is not as good as Iran, Japan and Saudi Arabia on the continental level due to Korea's inferior records at the Asian Games and Asian Cups" is nothing but a pointless cheap shot made of nothing but BIAS that had not taken any objective measure. According to your linked image, Korea have the upper hand over Saudi Arabia, Japan and Iran (in terms of total medals gained) at the Asian Games and Korea also are ranked #2 in terms of Asian Cup All Time Table according to RSSSF (they rank it by total pts gained) despite Korea sending a squad primarily made up of university/semi-pro players between 80 AC ~ 92 AC.

You're also losing your objectivity since you're intentionally omitting achievements from WCQ (The most important measuring tool since it is the ONLY competition in Asia that every Asian federation takes seriously), Asian Champions League, Olympic Qualifiers, U-20, U-17 even though they all have equally important merits like the Asian Cup & Asian Games in terms of determining one nation's position on their continental scene, at least in Asia.

Lastly, no one is spewing K-pride here. The discussion started after YOU made a controversial comment and if further added more fuel when some Iranian poster made a claim such as "Iran is the most dominant side in Asia since its head-to-head records against other Asian teams are superior and Iran has racked up amazing 4 Asian Games Titles!".

As I said before, when you look at Iran's achievements across all the football competition in Asia (https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22305377&postcount=24), it is clear to everyone that Iran lacks FAR BEHIND compared to other Asian powerhouses like Korea, Japan, Australia and Saudi Arabia

 

You're copy pasting your own posts now? Jeez, talk about obsession. When are you going to learn that you can not fight FACTS and OBJECTIVE STATICS that speak for themselves, with sorry-ass excuses like "we didn't care", "but we won more Bronze medals than you", or laughable bullshit like "we sent a university team to Asian Cup"? Just let it go. You are just making it worse for your wounded ego and pride.

Your insistence that "Head-to-Head results DO contain meaningless friendly wins" and therefore are not "a correct measurement", is a actually a moot point, given the fact Iran would still have a superior Head-to-Head record against South Korea and every other top Asian team, after EXCLUDING all the friendly results. Contrary to your claim, Iran has won plenty of "meaningful matches", or else we wouldn't have 6 continental titles at the senior level, and 3 World Cup appearances to our name.

However, let me make it clear that my mission here was never to prove "Iran is #1 in Asia", I am not an obnoxious arrogant prick unlike certain people here to make such grand claims. My mission was to humble you, and prove that you are not "the most decorated team in Asia". The mission has been successful. You can deny all you want, but nobody sees you as the best team in Asia, not now, not ever. Even during the 2010 World Cup, most pundits and neutral posters rated Japan higher than you.

 

I think its worth coming back to what the actual argument was about:

"Iran is the most decorated team in Asia!"

That statement which I believe is wrong by a lot. But I will admit arguing about this statement should just include the senior NT and no youth/club stuff.

Why would anybody in this argument discount WCQ? It is competition between asian teams for the prize of playing for the World Cup. It is never ever half-assed by any teams unless its a dead-rubber game. Never EVER has an FA with a NT likely to challenge for a qualification to the FWC said "Guys in this 4 year cycle the no.1 priority is Asian Cup, no.2 is qualification for WC".

World Cup qualification is always the most important prize to be earned in Asia and each nation goes about preparing for this challenge differently (noted in AC record discrepancies). But what it means is EVERY team puts pretty much 100% into the campaign.

Now MOST teams put 100% into the AC but it is more subject to developmental team and only 6-12 months (or 2 years in previous tournaments) into the 4 year development of a NT.
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However I'm curious as to why Korea Republic haven't won even after that period which apparently they used poorer squads. The usual WC qualifiers with Korea are Japan and except this one, Saudi. Of the 3, since '92: Japan won 3, Saudi won once and 2 runner-ups, and Korea only two 3rd finishes which is interesting.
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However both Iran and Korea Republic have crap AC records regardless of all-time W/D/L records.

But my point is WCQ is just as valid if not more important in this argument. For example if you consider U23's between India and Japan..... Technically India has a better Asian Games record than Japan... Yet nobody is about to argue that India is a more decorated U23 team than Japan largely cause of Olympic qualifiers.

 

I know traditionally the Asian Cup to the general public in Korea is not widely known. That is why previously, I have asked if anyone knows what are the stakes on hand besides the ticket to the confederations cup. (and the usual bragging rights)

 

No, the actual argument was about Korean Football claiming that "Korea is the most decorated team in Asia". You are basically putting words into my mouth. Nobody said "Iran is the most decorated team in Asia", what I originally said was "Iran is is the most decorated team in Asian Games" which is a factual statement.

 

Post a link where Korean Football said that. Or are you just making it up again?

I've read all the posts on this thread as well as the posts that were binned in the original Asian Games thread, the whole argument erupted when YOU made such a cynical/arrogant comment, "Korean players cried after their 4-3 win against Iran and that single-handley proves that the Korean players regard Iran as some kind of a mountain to climb". It then added further fuel when some Iranian poster made a claim that "Iran is the most dominant team in Asia due to its superior head-to-head record against other Asian nations and its 4 Asian Games titles".

Korean Football simply tried to dispute that by comparing both nation's achievements one-by-one on the continental stage as well as on the international fronts. No Korean posters here are claiming that "Korea is the best in Asia". As it was pointed out numerous times before, such a claim is extremely subjective one that will never get a definite answer.

 

I absolutely agree on what you said regarding WCQ being taken more seriously than the Asian Cup by all Asian federations. Mani, on the other hand, seems to believe otherwise though.

As it was pointed out earlier on page 3, KFA's stance has changed for sure but it still leaves a lot of room for improvement in terms of KFA's preparation for the Asian Cup and how Asian cup is being treated by the media, fans and the players themselves. Even in our recent 07 showing where we were placed 3rd in the competition, the Korean squad was primarily a U-23 side with some veterans included. Most European legionaries didn't also participate.

Another factor might be the overall improvement of the quality of Asian football, especially the emergence of Saudi Arabia, Japan and recently the inclusion of Australia. In the 80s, the level of Asian Cup competition was really low compared to today that Korea were able to advance to the final of 80 AC & 88 AC with a squad made of semi pro + university selection.

I'm not trying to degrade the Asian Cup here. (Although Asian Cup itself has a lot of things to be discussed for its lack of "management" ability) I'm just merely stating the point that KFA's stance towards Asian Cup had been #3 priority behind WCQ, Olympic Games until AFC decided to change its calendar year from 2004 to 2007 instead from 2004 to 2008 in order to avoid clashes with the Olympic games.

 

Korean Football couldn't handle the OBJECTIVE FACT that Iran is the most decorated team in Asian Games, so he made a subjective asinine claim that "Korea is the most decorated team in Asia", which started this whole argument.

Korean Football:

 

Mani, you're just amazing. I just don't know what to say. You're now going back to using your "cherry-picking" strategy? It's really disappointing. As you did to some of my previous posts on page 4 & 5, you're once again doing it to KF in order to degrade his argument. The whole argument started because KF made that comment? How can you say like that so comfortably?

Don't "cherry pick" it. Don't take it out of context. Here's a link to the whole thread,
https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1452803&page=41

KF initially responded to you calmly in order to dispute your original arrogant claim. And then, KF made this comment in regards to Korea against Iran,

When did KF or any other Korean member here boasted and made a claim such as "Korea is the best side in Asia!"? You quoted his comment totally out of context by intentionally omitting his earlier paragraph. That is a very immature/sissy thing to do.

As for how the whole argument started, it was actually this post created by Mani that caused the eruption of this whole argument,
https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1452803&page=38

 

You're so proud of a friendly win.

Shows how highly you hold us.

Your players were even grass-rolling to ensure victory.

Speaking of grass-rolling and dirty tactics,

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEX5W_Bh_Go"]YouTube - [Goora8Real] Korea vs Iran - AG2010 Football 3rd-Place Match 101125[/ame]

I'll let the neutral posters of this forum decide for themselves. Watch from 6:40.

 

Hey Mani, in case you didn't see my earlier question:

I would very much appreciate it if you responded. If you are trying to mock the Korean posters here with that gesture, I would like to respectfully ask that you stick to posting your insults rather than using the taegguki. That flag means a lot to me and I don't like to see it being used for mockery, Again, this is not about you per se, it is more about how we feel about the flag. Thanks.

 

No, that post itself was a reaction to Korean Football's repeated gloating and uncalled comments about "dominating in every way possible", and "being the superior team they were suppose to be" etc, in spite of the Iranian posters' original gracious reaction after the match. You still need to learn how to be a gracious winner and an outstanding loser. When you brag and gloat about a miraculous win in a somewhat meaningless match that you were one minute away from loosing, you are inviting someone like me to humble you, and put you back in your place, which is exactly what I did.

I know your holier-than-thou mentality. I know your weak points. I know that you're too proud to admit inferiority in anything, even the Asian Games, and that your sub-par Asian record greatly bothers you. So I used my knowledge of what ticks you off, to humble you, and I succeeded. So, let this be a lesson to you that words have consequences. Next time you win a match, try to be a little more gracious, a little less obnoxious.

 

I thought that all this crap between Koreans and Iranians was pure nonsense.

But now I see that Mani is truly an instigator, all he wants to do is pick on Korea.


Grow the hell up, your parents raised you better.

 

Says Tiger12, an obvious sock-puppet with less than 2 posts in the last 6 months.

 

That's exactly what I said on page 3! (https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22305377&postcount=24)

While Iranians use their all-time AC records along with their superior head-to-head records to boast their superiority against other Asian nations, they somehow fail to realize that Iran has not won the Asian Cup since 1976. This is where I said both sides from Iran and Korea have no bragging rights to use their Asian Cup performance when determining its position in Asia.

As I said earlier, winning the Asian Cup in the 70s or even in the 80s can not be equally compared to winning the Asian Cup in 04 or in 07. Sure, Iran won the Asian Cup in 68, 72 and 76 but when you look at that 68 and 76 were held in Iran and only 5 Asian nations (Iran, Hong Kong, Israel, Taiwan & Burma) participated in the 68 Asian Cup while 6 participated in 72 and 76 AC, it really makes people wonder whether these achievements are anything to brag about. Same goes for Korea's two titles that were obtained from 56' and 60' AC. Hence, why I made this comment earlier on this thread,

 

I am not much of a poster and I have a life outside the realm of Big Soccer.

But Iranians like you make us not like Iran as a whole and I really don't.

 

Whatever makes you feel better, Mani. It's really disappointing to see though that you're taking everything too personally and emotionally. This thread could have been so much better if you didn't involve your sensitivity in the argument of yours. Had you done that, you would have tried at least to make any valid counter arguments against mine and KF's, and you would have not resorted to typical "cherry-picking" & "finger-pointing" strategies which are better to be used at WR, the place where you usually hang around.

 

He won't let up, Why? simple hatred of Koreans and their achievements.

Ever since I have been on BS, he is truly one of the biggest haters.

 

I neither "hate" Koreans nor have any problems whatsoever with the Korean posters here in general. My beef is strictly with Korean Football and my stalker woorijim whom I consider to be obnoxious and passive-aggressive posters who are always making snide comments. Otherwise, I don't even have a problem with Koreans who openly flame and troll. At least, they're honest about their intentions. What I don't like, are two-faced people who pretend to be something they are not.

 

I agree this bickering among Koreans and Iranians is disgusting, especially since all of you are adults.

Why can't all of you just bite your tongues and not argue like children?

Maybe because they are both same passionate and Nationalistic people.

 

I'd also like to point out more about this part. For a comparison between the European nations, I absolutely agree with you in that Youth competition and Club performance should not be included when measuring one's dominance on their respective continental scene.

However, when it comes to ASIA. I think of it differently. I do believe that Asian Club Performance as well as Olympic Qualifiers, U-20, U-17 should be included along with the WCQ, Asian Cup and Asian Games when you're measuring one's dominance in Asia compared to another's.

As you know, Asia is a newly developed footballing world with not much of history in football. While the European clubs take care of "Youth development" on their own on behalf of European federations, most Asian federations rely heavily on their "centralized" system where U-17, U-20, U-23 create the backbone of the NT and so a large proportion of the NT players do come from these youth sides. This is partly another reason as to why most Asian federations take the youth competition seriously in Asia.

Club performance can be explained similarly. Unlike in Europe, most clubs in Asia are still being restricted in AFC's 3+1 rule where the clubs are allowed to use 3 foreign players only. This means that a majority of the squad players from most Asian clubs (except for some gulf teams) are local players. For this very reason, I believe Asian Club performance can also be used as another great measuring tool in terms of comparing one Asian nation's position against another Asian nation on the continental scene.