Korea and Iran

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

My 2 cents on the Iran-S.Korea arguments and rivalry here on bigsoccer, including some of the topics raised and discussed:

"Most Decorated Asian team?"?

I don't think that title can be applied to S.Korea, as Mani correctly pointed out. S.Korea has simply failed to win any recent continental titles to earn that kind of acclaim and they certainly don't have any international (World Cup, Olympics etc) titles either!

S.Korea can consider itself the "most accomplished Asian team internationally", in light of its World Cup record since 2002. (Prior to 2002, S.Korea had not even won a single World Cup match and its successive World Cup qualifications absent any recent Asian trophies could at best give it a title like "most successful Asian team in qualifying to the World Cup").

To be sure, I know a lot of Iranian fans who would prefer their team to be the "most accomplished Asian team internationally" than to boast having the most Asian "decorations". Especially since Iran itself has not won any recent Asian Cup titles and its record in that tournament, which is the true championship in Asia, is itself dated. Iran's Asian Games record is still the best in Asia since Iran has more titles than anyone else, although it seems the loss to S.Korea in the bronze medal match gave S.Korea a slight edge in terms of overall number of medals in that tournament. Still, I don't think the Koreans should try to call their team something it is not, especially since they do have more important things to be proud about without needing to come up with superfluous titles and occasionally irritating excuses. Frankly, the Asian Games football tournament (especially since the 2002 edition) is quite meaningless anyway. (Before 2002 edition and the age restrictions which were introduced, the Asian Games were properly regarded as Asia's 2nd continental championship, behind only the Asian Cup).


Iran v. S.Korea in football

Iran was stronger than S.Korea during the 1970s. S.Korea was stronger than Iran during the 1980s up to the mid to 1990s. From the 1996 Asian Cup to the 2006 World Cup, Iran was often as strong and occasionally stronger than S.Korea, although certainly even in that period S.Korea outperformed Iran in terms of its overall achievements in light of its superb showing in the World Cup it hosted in 2002. Since 2006, Iran has declined in football and S.Korea today is stronger than Iran, albeit marginally and Iran is still quite capable of defeating S.Korea in any single game even in S.Korea

S.Korean Tears

I have seen many pictures of S.Korean coaches and players shedding tears after games between Iran and S.Korea. Some of those tears have appeared on their face to be tears of joy and others have appeared clearly to be tears due to losses that have hurt them. I have no idea why the S.Korean players were shedding tears after beating Iran in the bronze medal match? Some of the explanations I have read here have seemed credible and others less so. Regardless, I don't see why S.Korean fans should be so bothered by the obvious assumption that those tears have something to do with the joy of being able to come back from a 3:1 loss to win a match 4:3 in the last 10 minutes of the game? Even if that is not why the Korean players were crying, it is not entirely unreasonable assumption for anyone to make!

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

You sir, are no Brazil. Brazil doesn't have a loosing head-head record against Uruguay like you do against Iran. So yes, for you, Iran is "some sort of a mountain", and the results between the two teams are the proof of that. Even during the 2010 World Cup Qualifications, when Iran was at its worst in recent history, with a team in total disarray and a squad significantly weaker than yours, you still couldn't overcome Iran, and needed two dramatic late equalizers in Tehran and Seoul to escape Iran's sting.

Get off the high horse and come down to earth, South Korea is just one of the good Asian teams whose most notable accomplishment in recent years, was a scandalous fluke run at the 2002 World Cup, on your own home turf. Even on the international level, after the controversial 2002 World Cup, Australia and Japan have achieved more than you have overall, without any controversy surrendering them.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

That wasn't Iran's worst in history. You guys actually didn't do that bad compared to the 2002 WCQ failure.

So you admit Park and co. >>>>> Nekounam, Shojaei and co. Cool, our players > yours from your very own words.

Football is a 90+ minute game, Iranians can't seem to wrap their heads around this. I don't care if we scored in the 90th minute, we secured the points needed and Iran didn't. Simple as that, no amount of calling it late equalizers against Iran's sting (lol) is going to change that fact.

and huh? 2002 aside, the international records of Asia's top tier teams are pretty much dead even.

Australia 2006 = 1 W, 1 D, 1 L (Round of 16)
Korea 2006 = 1 W, 1 D, 1 L
Japan 2006 = 1 D, 2 L

Australia 2010 = 1 W, 1 D, 1 L
Korea 2010 = 1 W, 1 D, 1 L (Round of 16)
Japan 2010 = 2 W, 1 L (Round of 16)

We are exactly even with Australia at 8 points. Japan with 7 points.


Anyways, this will be my last post in this thread. We are going in circles and now we're about to start a flame war on the 2002 World Cup. I don't even know why you'd bring that up unless you're secretly half Italian or half Spanish, other than that it's just pure jealousy.

I'm happy that Korea walked away with at least something in this Asian Games. I'm sure Korea and Iran will meet in January's Asian Cup and I look forward to this shit talking that will occur then.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

Actually, 2010 WCQ was Iran's worst team since 1994. Just one year later, at least three of the starters from that team are reserve players in their own clubs , not getting any playing time. (Gholamnejad, Ashjari, Sadeghi) That just goes to show you how weak the Iran squad was, with an incompetent inexperienced coach like Ali Daei at helm.

The 2002 WCQ team , on the other hand, was one of Iran's best in recent history, with a great generation of players like Daei-Hashemian-Karimi-Mahdavikia at their prime, and coached by the great Miroslav Blažević who had taken Croatia to the semi-finals of 1998 World Cup. Their failure was to some extent self-infected, and more so the result of one strange match with a lot of side-issues, and had nothing to do with their abilities. Otherwise they managed to beat Saudi Arabia comfortably, which was the hard part of the qualification, before the infamous match against Bahrain who were essentially playing as Saudi Arabia's second team since the day they were mathematically eliminated. The Bahraini players even paraded around the stadium with a huge Saudi flag, as oppose to their own country's flag, after the match. But the world has a way of making people pay for mistakes, and I strongly believe that Bahrain's heart-breaking elimination from 2006 and 2010 World Cup playoffs has been the result of karma left from that infamous match.

As for Park and Nekounam, Park is obviously the more accomplished player. I have never claimed Nekounam is better than Park, to admit otherwise now.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

We are talking senior men's national teams here, and you're bragging about your clubs and your little girls' football team? We are talking about CONTINENTAL CHAMPIONSHIPS at men's senior level, something you have not won in quarter a century, and you are talking how many worthless Bronze medals mighty Korea has won in Asian Games football? It's the Gold medal that counts, that's called a title. This is why talking to you is pointless. You lost the argument, but you wouldn't concede. You are, and will always be, just another good Asian team. But given your record at Asian Cup, your claim to "superiority" and "dominance" in Asia is purely a figment of your imagination.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

You're once again derailing the subject here,

Did any Korean posters here claim that Korea is the most decorated Asian team?

Nope. - No Korean posters came here and said "Oh, we're the best in Asia now that we've won a yet again bronze medal in the Asian Games!". As a matter of fact, it was you who started all this by making this very comment,

In summary, you were saying, "Iran, the most decorated team in Asia with a rich history of Asian Games were beaten by Korea and the fact that some Korean players cried after the match proved how much the Korean players feared/cared this mighty Iranian team."

In response to that arrogant comment, KF and other Korean posters were simply trying to refute it by stating that Iran had nothing to do with how some Korean players got emotional after the match and also Korean players have absolutely no reason to fear this so-called "Asia's most decorated side, Iran (according to Mani)." Like KF said, Iran's achievements at all levels of football are embarrassingly non-existent compared to other Asian powerhouses like Australia, Korea, Japan and Saudi Arabia. Determining who's the best side in Asia is a very subjective topic that will never get a definite answer, but at least these 4 nations have the bragging rights to call & award themselves such a title based on their achievements in domestic & international stages.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

Mani,

Given the tone of your posts about Korea on this forum, why do you have the Korean flag as your avatar?

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

Very well said. I personally think it's a very sissy thing to do; Mocking the opponent for shedding tears after the match. There's no reason to feel any superior about that regardless of why they're crying. Only a person with full of complexes would have orgasms from it. Funny enough, it was actually the Iran team that lost the match and many of the Iranian players did cry too.

Put it reversely, I didn't see anyone arrogantly coming to this forum and mocking others when Zob Ahan players cried. I didn't also see anyone came here and said anything about the Iranian players when they cried at the Asian Cup 2007 after losing to South Korea.

Japan is our fierce rival in football. Many foreign experts regard this Korea-Japan rivalry as the "cleanest" one that exists in the world of football; There's no violence among the fans (The Red Devils fans and Blue Samurai fans actually do have close/friendly connections with each other), Players from both sides do have respect for each other - All this while it's still being played at a very competitive level. Iran is a strong team and most Korean fans are not taking Iran lightly. If the reaction from the Iranian fans, however, is something similar to what certain BS poster did by posting images of some Korean players crying, what would Korean fans react to that? They would certainly not give any respect to the Iran team for sure.

How wonderful would it be if some Iranian players and Korean players create a scene like this after the match,

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I said Iran is the most decorated team in Asian Games, and that's a FACT based on objective statics. You claim Korea is the most decorated team in Asia, and that's NONSENSE based on subjective mumbo jumbo.

Regardless, this whole thing was started by Korean Football who kept gloating and making uncalled comments about "dominance", being "the superior team they were suppose to be", after a match that was miraculously won in a matter of seconds, all this arrogant and unsportsmanlike posturing in spite of our original gracious and friendly posture towards you. So I simply did what any reasonable poster would to humble you, and bring you guys down to earth, reminding you that you have an embarrassingly pathetic record on the continental level, and you are indeed an inferior team to Iran as far as the Asian Games, Asian Cup, and head-to-head records are concerned. (The joyful tears were really just the icing on the cake) That was the bitter truth, and that's why you all got so hot and bothered, and tried to derail the conversation by attacking me personally, and going as far as bringing up your achievements in little girls' footy.

You simply can't stand FACTS. While other posters have no problem admitting the FACT you have done better that other Asian teams internationally, you are too proud, and arrogant to admit the FACT you have an inferior record compared to Iran, Japan and Saudi Arabia on the continental level. Not only that, you're obnoxious enough to claim that " no other team is more decorated than Korea in this continent" when you haven't won the Asian title in 50 years.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

Iran owns Asia like no other team owns their respective continent. Iran has a winning record against EVERY single team in Asia. Iran is heads and shoulders above everyone else in the history of Asian Cup, there is a huge gap between Iran and the other "big 4" in every field
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/international/asian-cup/all-time-table
we have played the most, we have won the most we have only lost 11 games out of 101, we have scored the most, we have the most points (50 more than the 2nd place!)

as mani already showed we also dominate the asian games football as well with 4 titles.

we might not have done as well as we should have in the world cup stage but when it comes to our continent we dominate Asia and there is no argument we are #1 of all time.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

Gotta love how "the most decorated team this continent" is actually ranked below Iraq, and Uzbekistan in the continent's premier football tournament.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

how are we "way behind"? We have played the same number of games 70, you have won 48 we have won 40 wow big difference, we have also scored more than any other team. So explain again how we are "way behind"? hell if it wasnt because of the war (The national team withdrew from the Asian qualifiers for the 1982 World Cup, and refused to participate in the qualifiers for the 1986 World Cup because of having to play on neutral ground) and if had participated in world cup qualifying as early as south korea, we would have been way ahead.
Again we dominate Asian Cup and Asian Games and have winning record against every side in Asia till these change we are #1 in Asia.

 

Both suck,I would prefer Japan over them.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

I'd point out that Japan's 2010 R16 game was a draw so I'd argue Japan has 8 pts. Anyway back on topic:
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To determine national footballing rep (in order of importance):

WC, WCQ, AC, Olympics, OQ, Youth WC's, Youth Asian record, various other notable things(Confed Cup record/maybe AG record etc)

Some of the Iranians say that we shouldn't include SK's 2002 FWC cause they hosted it. May I point out that the Iranian poster's entire argument is based on continental success and 2 out of the 3 AC titles they have were on home soil.

Also as much as I'm happy with the recent Asian Games tournament.... Its not a medium to truly test the levels of all Asian teams. Asian Cup is important to all nations that play (wait i'm not finished). But although each team sent plays to the best of their ability...... for the top teams with the right perspective, their Asian Cup teams are not close to finished products, rather an important part of the development up to the World Cup.

And to those who say Iran is no.1 in Asia ....... not even the teams that have an objective right to make that claim really say they are no.1 (ROK, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Australia)

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

Too bad you guys can never win or secure points when it actually matters.

Oh snap, this is true. Thanks AKITOD. All three teams level with 1 Round of 16 finish and 8 points.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

The fact you've only been to 3 World Cups. And you can only boast a draw against Scotland in 1978, one win against USA in 1998 and 1 draw against Angola in 2006. whereas Asia's Top Three have now all recorded respectable wins on the international stage.


Yeah if it wasn't for the Revolution Iran would be Penta Campeao.

 

Re: 2010 Asian Games [R]

About that "Embarrassingly pathetic record on the continental level", let's now have a very good look it one by one and compare that to Iran's,

1. Asian Champions League

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Champions_League

Korea has 9 titles and 5 runners-up which is nearly double of what the 2nd ranked nation, Japan (5 titles/3 runners-up) has. 2009 and 2010 ACL titles have also been won by the K-league teams.

In contrast, in ACL's entire history of 43 years, Iranian club has won the title only 3 TIMES. 1992 was the last time an Iranian club has won which is embarrassingly pathetic record for a team that calls themselves one of the big 5 powerhouses in Asia.


2. World Cup Qualifiers

WCQ is by far the most important competition in Asia. Every team sends their best available squad players to the WCQ as qualifying for the WC is their ultimate goal.

Korea has qualified for the WC 8 times. Since 1986, Korea has qualified for the WC for the 7th consecutive times. (The closest country in Asia that matches this record is once again Japan with 4th consecutive times)

Between 1986 ~ 2010 WCQ, Korea played 70 WCQ games and have lost only 5 times.

1986 WCQ - 7W 0D 1L with 17 goals scored and 3 goals conceded
1990 WCQ - 9W 2D 0L with 30 goals scored and only 1 goal conceded
1994 WCQ - 9W 3D 1L with 32 goals scored and 3 goals conceded
1998 WCQ - 9W 2D 1L with 28 goals scored and 8 goals conceded
2002 WCQ - bye (Korea qualified as the host nation)
2006 WCQ - 7W 3D 2L with 18 goals scored and 7 goals conceded
2010 WCQ - 7W 7D 0L with 22 goals scored and 7 goals conceded

Iran has qualified for the WC 3 times only. When you know a country like Australia joined the AFC since 2006 WCQ and has so far racked up 3 WC appearances (74 WCQ via playoff; They beat Korea in the final round ironically), Iran's 3 WC appearances is rather pathetic. Not to mention, they couldn't even qualify for the 2002 WC where two host nations in Korea and Japan didn't even participate in WCQ.

Iran played 74 WCQ games since 1990 and they only won 41 games with 12 losses.


3. Head to Head record

Iran is slightly ahead of Korea with 9W 7D 8L. However, if you look deeper into it, you'll find a very interesting pattern. Iran HAS NEVER WON ANY GAMES AGAINST KOREA IN WCQ. Iran's wins were mostly concentrated on friendly games.

In addition, Korea once beat Iran 5-0. Korea also beat Iran 3-0 twice at the Asian Cup and at the WCQ game. Iran also had one famous victory over Korea that happened in Asian Cup, they won 6-2.

What's more amazing was that in some of Iran's wins over Korea, there was this one time when Korea sent U-23 squad to Iran. It was recorded as an "A" match since Iran sent full NT squad with Nekounam, Ali Karimi, Hashemian, Teymourian, Nosrati & etc and it was the Asian Cup Qualifying match. Iran's recent win against Korea was also nothing to brag about since it was a friendly match where Korea used 5 U-20 players and Iran scored a fluke goal off from a communication error between the 20 yr old Kim Young-Kwon and Lee Young-Pyo


4. Youth Competition

Now, unless you're a South American or an European, everyone agrees that youth competition is taken very seriously. Especially, when it comes to Asia, every Asian confederation pour huge amount of money in preparing for the youth competitions. So, this is another great measurement to see where both sides stand in terms of its dominance on the continental stage,


a) U-20

Like in the Club and WCQ competitions, Korea once again dominate Asia largely in this competition with 11 titles and 4 runner-ups to their name. Iran, on the other hand, had never tasted any success at U-20 level since 1976.

It's really a mystery from Iran's point of view since Iranian FA's attitude towards this competition beats any other Asian federations in terms of preparation, investment and seriousness. Iranian FA takes this U-20 competition much more serious than any other Asian federations. The 2010 U-20 Iranian team, built from their success at U-17 competition in 08, was invested heavily by the Iranian FA. Most Iranian players were forcefully dropped out of school and they camped for almost 2 years basically playing like a club side. Yet, they failed to get out of the group that consisted of Australia and Korea.


b) U-17

Korea once again is ranked #1 in Asia with 2 titles and 1 runner-up. Iran has won once in 2008. Iran also made the final in 2000, however that achievement should not be counted as Iran was caught cheating by fielding several over-age players. AFC later found it out and Iranian FA got suspended for 1 year.


c) U-23/ Olympic Qualifiers

This is a bit hard to believe for the non-Koreans, but Korea Football Association's stance towards this Olympic Qualifiers had always been regarded as #2 priority just behind WCQ, which means it had been taken more seriously than the Asian Cup by the KFA until AFC changed Asian Cup calendar to 2007 instead of 2008 in order to make it more prestige. I'll provide more detailed info about this later on.

Korea has qualified for the Olympics for the 6th consecutive times. Again, Japan is the only Asian nation that comes close to this record with their 4th consecutive showing.

Iran, on the other hand, HAS NEVER QUALIFIED FOR THE OLYMPICS.



5. Asian Cup

The only thing that gives Iran an upper-hand over Korea is this Asian Cup. However, there's not much of difference to say anyway in terms of Asian Cup achievements between both teams since both nations have failed to win the Asian Cup since 1976. So, I don't see why some of Iranian posters boast about their Asian Cup showing when they're comparing their country to Korea.

Korea has two Asian Cup tittles while Iran has 3. Iran won 2 titles at home while Korea won 1 at home.

Now, here's a very interesting story. Due to KFA's stance towards this Asian Cup (Which had been briefly said above), during the period of 80s to early 90s, Korea sent a mixed side that consisted of university selection + "Silup" players (Translated as "semi-pro" players in English) - Link: http://blog.naver.com/siberianmink?Redirect=Log&logNo=120114035340

The interesting thing to note was that Korea advanced to the final in 80 Asian Cup and 88 Asian Cup with those semi-pro/university players. Korea lost to Kuwait 3-0 at Kuwait in the final of 80 Asian Cup while in 88 Asian Cup, which was also held in Middle East, Korea was narrowly lost to Saudi Arabia on PKs.

In 1992 ACQ, KFA humiliated the Korean fans by going one more step further and they sent an university selection side to the 1992 ACQ. Rightfully so, they were handed an embarrassing blow as they failed to qualify for the 92 Asian Cup!

As it was briefly explained earlier, part of the reason why KFA didn't take this Asian Cup as #2 priority behind WCQ was because they regarded Olympic competition to be deemed more important for the Korean players. AFC are obviously not very happy about this as Korea is one of the major powerhouse in Asia. That's why as soon as Bin Hamman stepped in as the AFC president, the first thing he did was to revamp the Asian Cup and hence changed the AFC calendar from 2004 to 2007 instead of 2004 to 2008 in order to avoid clashes with the Olympic Games.

The birth of Confederations Cup has also given added motivation to the AFC teams that participate in the Asian Cup since 2003. KFA's stance has also changed since 2007 Asian Cup after those changes surrounding the AFC were made, and they're now doing best they can to bring the best available players to the Asian Cup. However, it is not still satisfying enough from the eyes of the Korean fans as in 2007 AC, our squad was primarily a U-23 side with European legionnaires like Park Ji-Sung, Seol Ki-Hyeon, Lee Young-Pyo and Park Chu-Young all omitted from the squad.

So, with that being said, I really believe there's no reason to boast about Iran's Asian Cup achievements compared to Korea when you know that Korea had been participating in this Asian Cup up until 1992 with a squad primarily made of semi-pro players.


6. Asian Games

Except for Korea and Iran, no Asian country had been taking this competition seriously. Saudi Arabia, for instance, rarely participates while Australia is not participating either. The fact that Asian Games have now become an unofficial U-23 competition that prepares Asian teams for the Olympic Games qualifiers makes people wonder whether this competition is prestige enough to be reckoned as some kind of measuring tool to see who dominates who in Asia.

If we're to compare Asian Games achievements between these two countries, Korea is ahead of Iran in terms of total medals gained (9 vs 7) while Iran's ahead of Korea in terms of titles gained (4 vs 3)

So, in terms of consistency, Korea have the upper-hand over Iran. As a matter of fact, since 1986 Asian Games, Korea made it to the last 4 at all of the Asian Games tournaments with the exception of Bangkok Asian Games in 98.

 

No woorijim, you see, Iranians are so proud of their Asian Cup wins.

Let them bask in their glory. I on the other hand will enjoy the clips of our Korean team fighting bravely on the world's premier stage against the likes of Italy/Argentina 1986, Spain/Germany 1994, Portugal/Italy 2002 , France 2006, Greece 2010, etc. whilst the Iranians watch reruns of their mighty Asian Cup victories over mighty world-class Asian opposition.

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