Kicker Rankings 1969 - 1979

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Gregoriak, Apr 22, 2005.

  1. BongartzUndRivera

    Sep 24, 2004
    NYC
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Any comments about him, Signore Greg? :)
     
  2. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Hannes Bongartz - a.k.a. Spargeltarzan - was a player with a delicate touch but who lacked physical strength. He played for Wattenscheid 09 in the Regionalliga West in the early 1970s and was already touted as the new big star, that's why Schalke bought him in '74. He had problems adjusting to the Bundesliga and Schalke at first, but by 1975, his performances got better. He started to play for West Germany around that time and was a member of the 1976 European Championship runner-up side. His finest hour playing for West Germany imo had been his superb cross (with the outside of his foot) to the head of Berti Vogts in the February 1976 EM-Qualification match vs. Malta (8-0), when Berti scored his first and only goal for West Germany. Hannes left Schalke in 1978 playing rather successfully for Kaiserslautern during the next 6 years. His time as a manager is not so well remembered, though. Today he excels at horse racing, I think. He even won a prestigious award not long ago.

    Did I pass the test? ;)
     
  3. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1977 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1977



    Torhüter / Goalies

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    Maier (Bayern)

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Kargus (Hamburg)
    Franke (Braunschweig)
    Gross (Tennis Borussia Berlin)
    Nigbur (Hertha)
    Kneib (M’Gladbach)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Burdenski (Bremen)
    Ferner (Saarbrücken)


    Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Kaltz (Hamburg)
    Vogts (M’Gladbach)
    Dietz (Duisburg)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    H Zimmermann (Köln)
    Neuberger (Frankfurt)
    Lameck (Bochum)
    Sobieray (Schalke)
    Hidien (Hamburg)
    W Schneider (Duisburg)


    Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper)

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    Beckenbauer (Bayern)
    Kaltz (Hamburg)


    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Wittkamp (Schalke 04)

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    R Gerber (Köln)
    E Schmitt (Saarbrücken)


    Vorstopper / Man-Markers

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Rüssmann (Schalke)
    Nogly (Hamburg)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Körbel (Frankfurt)
    Schwarzenbeck (Bayern)
    Höttges (Bremen)
    D Jakobs (Tennis Borussia Berlin)


    Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Grabowski (Frankfurt)
    Bonhof (M’Gladbach)
    Beer (Hertha)
    Flohe (Köln)
    Stielike (M’Gladbach)
    Hölzenbein (Frankfurt)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Bongartz (Schalke)
    Wimmer (M’Gladbach)
    Magath (Hamburg)
    Burgsmüller (Dortmund)
    Kapellmann (Bayern)
    Tenhagen (Bochum)
    Seel (Düsseldorf)
    K Allofs (Düsseldorf)
    Memering (Hamburg)
    W Schäfer (Karlsruhe)
    Bast (Essen)
    Segler (Dortmund)


    Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    R Abramczik (Schalke)
    Hölzenbein (Frankfurt)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    K H Rummenigge (Bayern)
    Steffenhagen (Hamburg)
    Geyer (Dortmund)


    Linksaussen / Outside Lefts

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Volkert (Hamburg)

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    K H Rummenigge (Bayern)
    Stegmayer (Saarbrücken)
    Seel (Düsseldorf)
    Janzon (Karlsruhe)


    Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Fischer (Schalke 04)
    D Müller (Köln)
    G Müller (Bayern)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Frank (Braunschweig)
    Reimann (Hamburg)
    Wenzel (Frankfurt)
     
  4. BongartzUndRivera

    Sep 24, 2004
    NYC
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Of course! :eek:
    One thing I would add on "Spargeltarzan" would be.....that he is from Bonn and started out with Bonner SC. :)
     
  5. BongartzUndRivera

    Sep 24, 2004
    NYC
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Well it was very strange to see out Cult Hero to see in a different uniform, who had to be sold to Hertha because Schalke could not give a raise because of the tight budget at the time mainly caused by the purchase of Bongartz few seasons ago.

    Maric wasn't bad that season at the goal for Schalke and Oblak was great at the Midfield.

    He was with Gladbach since after the skandal year.

    Der Flankengott was a really great that season, he would have remained great if he continued to provide flanks for Fischer.
    I think in a matter of 1~2 matches when Fischer could not play Rüdiger got to score few goals and I think that had changed his mind to go for the goals by himself (similar situation when Pele retired from the NT and Tostao was injured and Jairzinho wanted only to score).

    He wasn't the same for me anymore even when he managed to score at the WM78.......
     
  6. The Old Lady Hertha

    The Old Lady Hertha New Member

    Dec 15, 2004
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    China PR
    It's funny cuz he signed for Hertha...Schalke and Hertha hate each other, or at least Hertha hates Schalke. I think Schalke regard their Dortmund rivalry more seriously.
     
  7. BongartzUndRivera

    Sep 24, 2004
    NYC
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Schalke's biggest rival is definetly Doofmund as it is also the biggest derby of Germany, plus the famous "Hundebis" incedent at Doofmund in the late 60's made it even hotter. :D

    There are hatreds from Hertha towards Schalke, not real a rivalry.
    One of the main reason of the hatred goes back to the 1964/65 season when Schalke benefitted not to get relegated when they finished last was saved because of the expension from 16 to 18 clubs for the 1965/66 season.
    Where as in the other hand Hertha who finished 14th was relegated because they found guilty of paying their players under the table. :p

    Anyway, as a life long Schalker myself had always fond feelings towards Hertha BSC not only because of Nigbur being a Schalker, but also as a team who had great players like Beer, Sziedat, Sidka, Deisler (oops sorry if I had hurt you feelings... :eek: ) and Friedrich. :)
     
  8. The Old Lady Hertha

    The Old Lady Hertha New Member

    Dec 15, 2004
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    China PR
    Feelings not mutual lol...i don't have beef with Schalke personally (I hate Bayern much more) but a lot of Hertha fans (especially older fans) have disdain for Schalke.
     
  9. keller

    keller New Member

    May 20, 2003
    On The Galactica
    I'm beggining to weep at all these rankings, oh the glory days!! and where are we now?? narrowly avoiding relegation thats where! (wipes a tear from my eye)
     
  10. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Maric had a very shaky start at the beginning but consolidated later. Then came Volkmar Gross for the next season.



    Of course – just a typo.




    Exactly. The 78-79 season was the last hurrah of the two, Fischer scoring 21 times and Abramczik 18 times. It went all downhill after that.


    I wonder if we will ever see a small town club like Borussia dominating a whole decade and providing star after star for the national team.
     
  11. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    No German world class players after the 1978 World Cup!!!



    RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1978 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1978



    Torhüter / Goalies

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Maier (Bayern)
    Franke (Braunschweig)
    H Schumacher (Köln)
    Nigbur (Hertha)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Burdenski (Bremen)
    Kargus (Hamburg)
    Koitka (Frankfurt)
    Kleff (Gladbach)
    Roleder (Stuttgart)


    Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Konopka (Köln)
    Dietz (Duisburg)
    Vogts (M’Gladbach)
    H Zimmermann (Köln)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Lameck (Bochum)
    Bierofka (1860 Munich)
    Weiner (Hertha)
    Brei (Düsseldorf)
    Elmer (Stuttgart)


    Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper)

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Zewe (Düsseldorf)
    Kaltz (Hamburg)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    R Gerber (Köln)
    Schwarzenbeck (Bayern)
    Tenhagen (Bochum)
    Brück (Hertha)
    Neuberger (Frankfurt)
    Höttges (Bremen)


    Vorstopper / Man-Markers

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Rüssmann (Schalke)

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    K H Förster (Stuttgart)
    Hannes (Gladbach)
    Kliemann (Hertha)
    G Zimmermann (Düsseldorf)
    Strack (Köln)


    Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Flohe (Köln)
    Bonhof (M’Gladbach)
    Grabowski (Frankfurt)
    Hölzenbein (Frankfurt)
    K H Rummenigge (Bayern)
    Neuberger (Frankfurt)
    H Müller (Stuttgart)
    Beer (Hertha)
    Breitner (Braunschweig)
    Burgsmüller (Dortmund)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Cullmann (Köln)
    Ohlicher (Stuttgart)
    Bongartz (Schalke)
    Hadewicz (Stuttgart)
    K Toppmöller (Kaiserslautern)
    K Allofs (Düsseldorf)
    Wimmer (M’Gladbach)
    Hartwig (1860 Munich)
    Röber (Bremen)


    Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    None

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Hölzenbein (Frankfurt)
    Seliger (Duisburg)
    Del’Haye (M’Gladbach)


    Linksaussen / Outside Lefts

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    K H Rummenigge (Bayern)

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Worm (Duisburg)
    Seel (Düsseldorf)
    Volkert (Hamburg)
    Dressel (Bremen)


    Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    None

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    D Müller (Köln)
    Fischer (Schalke)
    G Müller (Bayern)
    K Toppmöller (Kaiserslautern)
    Abel (Bochum)
    Heynckes (M’Gladbach)


    Ausländer / Foreigners

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    Hellström (Kaiserslautern)
    Keegan (Hamburg)


    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Simonsen (M’Gladbach)
    Hickersberger (Düsseldorf)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Kristensen (Hertha)
    Larsson (Schalke)
    Holcer (Stuttgart)
    van Gool (Köln)
    Jara (Duisburg)
    Popivoda (Braunschweig)
    Lund (Düsseldorf)
     
  12. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    Interesting.

    As you can imagine Gregoriak, this type of rating system would illicit a couple of questions:

    What was the composition of the judges panel? Was it a panel solely comprised of sportswriters?

    How did they make the evaluations? Did they use statistical methods, or just individual judgement?

    Does the magazine clearly articulate the distinction between World Class, International Class, and Broader Circle?

    I understand that they only ranked players playing in Germany, because those outside "could not be judged properly"...but to determine if these were World Class performers wouldn't they have to be judged relative to non-Bundesliga competition anyway?

    No matter the answer to these questions its still a very ambitious excercise they undertook.

    Kudos for unearthing it.
     
  13. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    The pannel was composed solely of sportwriters - the Kicker staff of authors.

    The only thing they announced on how they came up with their results was that they laboured on it and often led heated discussions - but they didn't tell how exactly they determined their ranking. I have a feeling they didn't use statistical methods, just individual judgement.

    Let me translate for example what they wrote in the preamble to their December 1976 ranking:

    "For the assessment of a player, his performances in the bygone term are decisive, this being synonymous with the first half of the Bundesliga season and the second Bundesliga. Naturally international matches and European Cup games carry the most weight, especially regarding the ranking of the two highest classes.

    We rank the players into four groups: "world class", "international class", "broader circle" and "in focus". While in the first three categories a further classification is established by the ranking of the players, the players in the last category "in focus" are ranked alphabetically. Here all second division players are included. The decisive factor was - as always - constantly good performances over a longer period of time. It was not sufficient to shine here and there only to fall back into mediocrity again.

    Players that were injured for a longer period of time or that were forbidden to play for a longer period of time due to expulsion could not be gauged.

    It is possible that players are listed in two positions. Example: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, who mostly plays on the left wing for Bayerm but often played on the right side for the national team.

    Heated debates mostly occurred regarding who should be classified as world class. It would be ridiculous to argue about Franz Beckenbauer`s status as world class, but who should be considered equal to him in this field? In fact nobody. Almost we had to invent the category of "super world class" just for Franz, just to underline his exceptional position.

    But even with rigor judgement, German football is not that poor that we could only present you with one world class player. Next to Franz we also consider Sepp Maier, Berti Vogts and Gerd Müller as having shown world class performances during the last 6 months. Rainer Bonhof, who showed some great performances, but who didn't fully convince over the course of the last term, fell back to international class in a very narrow vote. But we don't want to indulge in details. To every position a member of the Kicker editorial writes a commentary - enough cogent arguments shall be found in these.


    To show what kind of stuff they wrote in the commentary for the position, here's the one for the December 1976 full backs:

    The last ranking was published immediately after the 1976 European Championship. No full backs were listed as "world class" in that ranking. For the first time in years Berti Vogts of Mönchengladbach wasn't graded as being world class. His weak performances contributed to the national team not defending the European title. In the final Vogts even initiated the first goal for the Czechoslovakians with a classic bad pass. Hennes Weisweiler, discoverer and conveyor of Berti during the last ten years admitted: "yes, Berti was weak. But every player has the right to play bad once in a while. Berti will come back." In his usual open manner, Berti admitted: "Yes I was bad and I am partly guilty that we didn't defend the title."

    Over! It's all water under the bridge now. Vogts obtained his former class again, contributed to Gladbach establishing a new Bundesliga record by being unbeated in the first 13 games of the season as well as conceding the lowest amount of goals. Berti Vogts is the last great of the old guard of adamantly grim man-marking defenders, of the specialists of defence-only. After all, Berti only scored 1 goal in his 75 international games for Germany. But what Vogts is worth especially for his club showed the last weeks. A man of high calibre does not only stand the test with the ball but also in the hearts and minds of his teammates. Sure enough, Berti Vogts is the last one in his team that addresses his former manager as "chef".

    Already to the new generation belongs Manfred Kaltz. It may be symbolic that the Hamburg player replaced Vogts in the last game vs. Czechoslovakia. Kaltz followed Vogts in impressive style. Kaltz - who can do everything - also has the physical condition to once become a world class player. The future belongs to him if he continues to exhaust his possibilities.

    Bernhard Dietz played himself into the national team especially due to his startling good performance in the European Championship qualifying match vs. the Bulgarians in Stuttgart. His teammate Heinz-Werner Schneider was called up for the first time prior to the game vs. Czechoslovakia.

    The Köln full back Harald Konopka shone brightly in the B-match vs. Romania in Bukarest, but unfortunately for him he had to come to terms with heavy reproaches by his captain Wolfgang Weber for getting booked in the UEFA-Cup game vs. Queens Park Rangers. Konopka is on the verge of stepping into the national team at this point despite a couple of weaker performances like against Bowles in London in the UEFA Cup.

    Among the rising players getting into focus are the young Werder-Defender Geils, who was unleashed by Hans Tilkowski (Werder manager) who should know a thing about defenders as he was the goalkeeper of the national team for many years.


    That's the type of commentary Kicker offers as justification for their ranking.

    Needless to say, in the weeks following the publishing of their half-year rankings, countless letters are being sent in by readers who bitch and moan about this and that not being right etc. Always quite amusing reading those letters. ;)
     
  14. KarlMai

    KarlMai Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    Witzenhausen/Germany
    Club:
    FF USV Jena
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Nowadays it's very different, the infamous grades are all over the place in every Kicker article nad of course particuliarly in the Rangliste. I think now they put too much emphasis on these statistics (which are subjective, too, anyway).
    Grades and stats are fine, but they are not everything.

    That's true, that's a lot of fun. Of course, there is always some room for debate, but in general the rankings are not that far from the reality IMHO as some readers tend to believe.

    Well, people writing letters to editors are a whiny bunch anyway, some are outright lunatics ;) Not like BS posters... *eg* ;)
     
  15. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Final part:

    RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1979 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1979



    Torhüter / Goalies

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Maier (Bayern)
    Nigbur (Hertha)
    Burdenski (Bremen)
    Kargus (Hamburg)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    H Schumacher (Köln)
    Roleder (Stuttgart)
    Stein (Bielefeld)
    Heinze (Duisburg)


    Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Dietz (Duisburg)
    Kaltz (Hamburg)
    Martin (Stuttgart)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    H Zimmermann (Köln)
    B Förster (Stuttgart)
    Konopka (Köln)


    Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper)

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    None

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Fichtel (Schalke 04)
    Vogts (M’Gladbach)
    Zewe (Düsseldorf)
    Cullmann (Köln)
    Bast (Bochum)
    Weyerich (Nürnberg)
    Neues (Kaiserslautern)
    Schwarzenbeck (Bayern)


    Vorstopper / Man-Markers

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    K H Förster (Stuttgart)
    G Zimmermann (Düsseldorf)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Briegel (Kaiserslautern)
    D Jakobs (Duisburg)
    B Schuster (Köln)
    Rüssmann (Schalke 04)
    Geils (Bremen)


    Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    H Zimmermann (Köln)
    Breitner (Bayern)
    Beer (Hertha)
    H Müller (Stuttgart)
    Bongartz (Kaiserslautern)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Memering (Hamburg)
    Cullmann (Köln)
    Ohlicher (Stuttgart)
    B Schuster (Köln)
    Groh (Hamburg)
    Magath (Hamburg)
    Kulik (M’Gladbach)
    Riedl (Kaiserslautern)
    Hartwig (Hamburg)
    Röber (Bremen)
    Körbel (Frankfurt)


    Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    R Abramczik (Schalke 04)
    K H Rummenigge (Bayern)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Kelsch (Stuttgart)

    Linksaussen / Outside Lefts

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Volkert (Stuttgart)
    K H Rummenigge (Bayern)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Lienen (M’Gladbach)

    Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    None

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    K Allofs (Düsseldorf)

    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Fischer (Schalke 04)
    D Hoeness (Stuttgart)
    K Toppmöller (Kaiserslautern)
    Hrubesch (Hamburg)
    D Müller (Köln)


    Ausländer / Foreigners

    Weltklasse / World Class:

    Keegan (Hamburg)

    Internationale Klasse / International Class:

    Buljan (Hamburg)
    Hellström (Kaiserslautern)
    Oblak (Bayern)
    Pezzey (Frankfurt)
    Popivoda (Braunschweig)
    Jara (Duisburg)


    Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle:

    Simonsen (M’Gladbach)
    Holcer (Stuttgart)
    Borg (Braunschweig)
    Roentved (Bremen)
     
  16. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Follow-up thread can be seen here.
     
  17. Borussia

    Borussia Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    Fürth near Nuremberg
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    C'mon, we really had no 'world class' German players back then? :confused:
     

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