Jonestown Massacre (mass suicide)

servotron · Mar 16, 2006

Wow, I'm really sort of stunned. I'm listening to the "suicide tape" where there's a debate between Jim Jones and a woman named Christine. Jim Jones is convincing 1,000 people to drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

You can get a link to it by Wikipedia Jonestown.

Wow.

....and people ask me why I'm agnostic.

Riz · Mar 16, 2006

... and now begins the discussion in here on the difference between a cult and organized religion.

Disclaimer: I myself am absolutely fascinated by Jonestown from a sociological point of view. I actually got a copy of the original newspaper articles on Jonestown that appeared in the Washington Post shortly after it happened. Absolutely fascinating.

bigredfutbol · Mar 16, 2006

Riz said:

... and now begins the discussion in here on the difference between a cult and organized religion.
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Tax-exempt status.

servotron · Mar 16, 2006

I'm just geting done listening to the whole thing. The silence with the music at the end is quite creepy.

Knowing though that Jim Jones didn't take his own life at that point though is also creepy. He was shot in the head, either by himself or by an escaped/hiding defector.

Riz · Mar 16, 2006

servotron said:

I'm just geting done listening to the whole thing. The silence with the music at the end is quite creepy.

Knowing though that Jim Jones didn't take his own life at that point though is also creepy. He was shot in the head, either by himself or by an escaped/hiding defector.
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I like to think it wasn't suicide but by a survivor/defector.

I can't recall off the top of my head if there are any living survivors of Jonestown, but that would be a fascinating interview.

So the audio was linked in the Wiki article on the massacre?

StrikerCW · Mar 16, 2006

Riz said:

... and now begins the discussion in here on the difference between a cult and organized religion.
Click to expand...

Coming from heresay from my roomate that took a religion course in uni (if that means anything to you guys) he was taught that a cult is technically a sect of a religion that hasn't survived past one generation. Once a cult can surivive continuosly for a generation of members then it becomes a demonimation.

I am not sure how accurate this is, but figured I'd throw it in.

BTW, Jonestown was rather interesting and shocking. It does make you wonder how gullible people can be and believe what they are fed.

servotron · Mar 16, 2006

Riz said:

I like to think it wasn't suicide but by a survivor/defector.

I can't recall off the top of my head if there are any living survivors of Jonestown, but that would be a fascinating interview.

So the audio was linked in the Wiki article on the massacre?
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http://www.archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16

Ismitje · Mar 16, 2006

servotron said:

....and people ask me why I'm agnostic.
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If, in fact, all episodes of senseless killings and selfish manipulation of people for whatever outcome a person with influence desired, committed in the name of any "ism" also led you to a rejection of that principle, then this reason for becoming agnostic makes sense to me. But it shouldn't be/probably isn't this alone (I assume you were just making a point and there is more to the story, some of which you posted in other places).

I've seen a couple of good History Channel docs on Jonestown. And a 1980 TV movie for which Powers Boothe won an Emmy for his portrayal of Jones is still available on Amazon for $12.74. It also stars Ned Beatty (one of my favorite actors) and Irene Cara. It's pretty good but my memory is a bit hazy on that one.

Mel Brennan · Mar 16, 2006

servotron said:

http://www.archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16
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worst. audio. ever.

servotron · Mar 16, 2006

Ismitje said:

If, in fact, all episodes of senseless killings and selfish manipulation of people for whatever outcome a person with influence desired, committed in the name of any "ism" also led you to a rejection of that principle, then this reason for becoming agnostic makes sense to me. But it shouldn't be/probably isn't this alone (I assume you were just making a point and there is more to the story, some of which you posted in other places).
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Yeah, if I based my beliefs on one event or source of information I'd be in no better boat than the folks in Guayana that day.

bungadiri · Mar 16, 2006

Riz said:

I like to think it wasn't suicide but by a survivor/defector.

I can't recall off the top of my head if there are any living survivors of Jonestown, but that would be a fascinating interview.

So the audio was linked in the Wiki article on the massacre?
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I heard an interview on NPR last year or the year before that with a woman who was part of the cult. She missed the suicide/murder because she was running a house for the commune in a nearby city. It was a very painful interview to listen to.

edit: I think this may be it:

http://bama.ua.edu/~sprentic/672 Block 2003 Interview.htm

gaijin · Mar 16, 2006

Very chilling...

Pints · Mar 16, 2006

Deborah Layton(an escaped member of the People's Temple) wrote a book, which received good reviews.

Seductive Poison

Mel Brennan · Mar 16, 2006

Pints said:

Deborah Layton(an escaped member of the People's Temple) wrote a book, which received good reviews.

Seductive Poison
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Prescient?

AFFIDAVIT OF DEBORAH LAYTON BLAKEY
RE THE THREAT AND POSSIBILITY
OF MASS SUICIDE
BY MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S TEMPLE

I, DEBORAH LAYTON BLAKEY, declare the following under penalty of perjury:

1. The purpose of this affidavit is to call to the attention of the United States government the existence of a situation which threatens the lives of United States citizens living in Jonestown, Guyana.

2. From August, 1971 until May 13, 1978, I was a member of the People's Temple. For a substantial period of time prior to my departure for Guyana in December, 1977, I held the position of Financial Secretary of the People's Temple.

3. I was 18 years old when I joined the People's Temple. I had grown up in affluent circumstances in the permissive atmosphere of Berkeley, California. By joining the People's Temple, I hoped to help others and in the process to bring structure and self-discipline to my own life.

4. During the years I was a member of the People's Temple, I watched the organization depart with increasing frequency from its professed dedication for social change and participatory democracy. The Rev. Jim Jones gradually assumed a tyrannical hold over the lives of Temple members.

5. Any disagreement with his dictates came to be regarded as "treason". The Rev. Jones labelled any person who left the organization a "traitor" and "fair game". He steadfastly and convincingly maintained that the punishment for defection was death. The fact that severe corporal punishment was frequently administered to Temple members gave the threats a frightening air of reality.

6. The Rev. Jones saw himself as the center of a conspiracy. The identity of the conspirators changed from day to day along with his erratic world vision. He induced the fear in others that, through their contact with him, they had become targets of the conspiracy. He convinced black Temple members that if they did not follow him to Guyana, they would be put into concentration camps and killed. White members were instilled with the belief that their names appeared on a secret list of enemies of the state that was kept by the C.I.A. and that they would be tracked down, tortured, imprisoned, and subsequently killed if they did not flee to Guyana.

7. Frequently, at Temple meetings, Rev. Jones would talk non-stop for hours. At various times, he claimed that he was the reincarnation of either Lenin, Jesus Christ, or one of a variety of other religious or political figures. He claimed that he had divine powers and could heal the sick. He stated that he had extrasensory perception and could tell what everyone was thinking. He said that he had powerful connections the world over, including the Mafia, Idi Amin, and the Soviet government.

8. When I first joined the Temple, Rev. Jones seemed to make clear distinctions between fantasy and reality. I believed that most of the time when he said irrational things, he was aware that they were irrational, but that they served as a tool of his leadership. His theory was that the end justified the means. At other times, he appeared to be deluded by a paranoid vision of the world. He would not sleep for days at a time and talk compulsively about the conspiracies against him. However, as time went on, he appeared to become genuinely irrational.

9. Rev. Jones insisted that Temple members work long hours and completely give up all semblance of a personal life. Proof of loyalty to Jones was confirmed by actions showing that a member had given up everything, even basic necessities. The most loyal were in the worst physical condition. Dark circles under one's eyes or extreme loss of weight were considered signs of loyalty.

10. The primary emotions I came to experience were exhaustion and fear. I knew that Rev. Jones was in some sense "sick", but that did not make me any less afraid of him.

11. Rev. Jones fled the United States in June, 1977 amidst growing public criticism of the practices of the Temple. He informed members of the Temple that he would be imprisoned for life if he did not leave immediately.

12. Between June, 1977 and December, 1977, when I was ordered to depart from Guyana, I had access to coded radio broadcasts from Rev. Jones in Guyana to the People's Temple headquarters in San Francisco.

13. In September, 1977, an event which Rev. Jones viewed as a major crisis occurred. Through listening to coded radio broadcasts and conversations with other members of the Temple staff, I learned that an attorney for former Temple member Grace Stoen had arrived in Guyana, seeking the return of her son, John Victor Stoen.

14. Rev. Jones has expressed particular bitterness toward Grace Stoen. She had been Chief Counselor, a position of great responsibility within the Temple. Her personal qualities of generosity and compassion made her very popular with the membership. Her departure posed a threat to Rev. Jones absolute control. Rev. Jones delivered a number of public tirades against her. He said that her kindness was faked and that she was a C.I.A. agent. He swore that he would never return her son to her.

15. I am informed that Rev. Jones believed that he would be able to stop Timothy Stoen, husband of Grace Stoen and father of John Victor Stoen, from speaking against the Temple as long as the child was being held in Guyana. Timothy Stoen, a former Assistant District Attorney in Mendocino and San Francisco counties, had been one of Rev. Jones' most trusted advisors. It was rumoured that Stoen was critical of the use of physical force and other forms of intimidation against Temple members. I am further informed that Rev. Jones believed that a public statement by Timothy Stoen would increase the tarnish on his public image.

16. When the Temple lost track of Timothy Stoen, I was assigned to track him down and offer him a large sum of money in return for his silence. Initially, I was to offer him $5,000. I was authorized to pay him up to $10,000. I was not able to locate him and did not see him again until on or about October 6, 1977. On that date, the Temple received information that he would be joining Grace in a San Francisco Superior Court action to determine the custody of John. I was one of a group of Temple members assigned to meet him outside the court and attempt to intimidate him to prevent him from going inside.

17. The September, 1977 crisis concerning John Stoen reached major proportions. The radio messages from Guyana were frenzied and hysterical. One morning, Terry J. Buford, public relations advisor to Rev. Jones, and myself were instructed to place a telephone call to a high-ranking Guyanese official who was visiting the United States and deliver the following threat: unless the government of Guyana took immediate steps to stall the Guyanese court action regarding John Stoen's custody, the entire population of Jonestown would extinguish itself in a mass suicide by 5:30 P.M. that day. I was later informed that Temple members in Guyana placed similar calls to other Guyanese officials.

18. We later received radio communication to the effect that the court case had been stalled and that the suicide threat was called off.

19. I arrived in Guyana in December, 1977. I spent a week in Georgetown and then, pursuant to orders, traveled to Jonestown.

20. Conditions at Jonestown were even worse than I had feared they would be. The settlement was swarming with armed guards. No one was permitted to leave unless on a special assignment and these assignments were given only to the most trusted. We were allowed to associate with Guyanese people only while on a "mission".

21. The vast majority of the Temple members were required to work in the fields from 7 A.M. to 6 P.M. six days per week and on Sunday from 7 A.M. to 2 P.M. We were allowed one hour for lunch. Most of this hour was spent walking back to lunch and standing in line for our food. Taking any other breaks during the workday was severely frowned upon.

22. The food was woefully inadequate. There was rice for breakfast, rice water soup for lunch, and rice and beans for dinner. On Sunday, we each received an egg and a cookie. Two or three times a week we had vegetables. Some very weak and elderly members received one egg per day. However, the food did improve markedly on the few occasions when there were outside visitors.

23. In contrast, Rev. Jones, claiming problems with his blood sugar, dined separately and ate meat regularly. He had his own refrigerator which was stocked with food. The two women with whom he resided, Maria Katsaris and Carolyn Layton, and the two small boys who lived with him, Kimo Prokes and John Stoen, dined with the membership. However, they were in much better physical shape than everyone else since they were also allowed to eat the food in Rev. Jones' refrigerator.

24. In Febuary, 1978, conditions had become so bad that half of Jonestown was ill with severe diarrhea and high fevers. I was seriously ill for two weeks. Like most of the other sick people, I was not given any nourishing foods to help recover. I was given water and a tea drink until I was well enough to return to the basic rice and beans diet.

25. As the former financial secretary, I was aware that the Temple received over $65,000 in Social Security checks per month. It made me angry to see that only a fraction of the income of the senior citizens in the care of the Temple was being used for their benefit. Some of the money was being used to build a settlement that would earn Rev. Jones the place in history with which he was so obsessed. The balance was being held in "reserve". Although I felt terrible about what was happening, I was afraid to say anything because I knew that anyone with a differing opinion gained the wrath of Jones and other members.

26. Rev. Jones' thoughts were made known to the population of Jonestown by means of broadcasts over the loudspeaker system. He broadcast an average of six hours per day. When the Reverend was particularly agitated, he would broadcast for hours on end. He would talk on and on while we worked in the fields or tried to sleep. In addition to the daily broadcasts, there were marathon meetings six nights per week.

27. The tenor of the broadcasts revealed that Rev. Jones' paranoia had reached an all-time high. He was irate at the light in which he had been portrayed by the media. He felt that as a consequence of having been ridiculed and maligned, he would be denied a place in history. His obsession with his place in history was maniacal. When pondering the loss of what he considered his rightful place in history, he would grow despondent and say that all was lost.

28. Visitors were infrequently permitted access to Jonestown. The entire community was required to put on a performance when a visitor arrived. Before the visitor arrived, Rev. Jones would instruct us on the image we were to project. The workday would be shortened. The food would be better. Sometimes there would be music and dancing. Aside from these performances, there was little joy or hope in any of our lives. An air of despondency prevailed.

29. There was constant talk of death. In the early days of the People's Temple, general rhetoric about dying for principles was sometimes heard. In Jonestown, the concept of mass suicide for socialism arose. Because our lives were so wretched anyway and because we were so afraid to contradict Rev. Jones, the concept was not challenged.

30. An event which transpired shortly after I reached Jonestown convinced me that Rev. Jones had sufficient control over the minds of the residents that it would be possible for him to effect a mass suicide.

31. At least once a week, Rev. Jones would declare a "white night", or state of emergency. The entire population of Jonestown would be awakened by blaring sirens. Designated persons, approximately fifty in number, would arm themselves with rifles, move from cabin to cabin, and make certain that all members were responding. A mass meeting would ensue. Frequently during these crises, we would be told that the jungle was swarming with mercenaries and that death could be expected at any minute.

32. During one "white night", we were informed that our situation had become hopeless and that the only course of action open to us was a mass suicide for the glory of socialism. We were told that we would be tortured by mercenaries if we were taken alive. Everyone, including the children, was told to line up. As we passed through the line, we were given a small glass of red liquid to drink. We were told that the liquid contained poison and that we would die within 45 minutes. We all did as we were told. When the time came when we should have dropped dead, Rev. Jones explained that the poison was not real and that we had just been through a loyalty test. He warned us that the time was not far off when it would become necessary for us to die by our own hands.

33. Life at Jonestown was so miserable and the physical pain of exhaustion was so great that this event was not traumatic for me. I had become indifferent as to whether I lived or died.

34. During another "white night", I watched Carolyn Layton, my former sister-in-law, give sleeping pills to two young children in her care, John Victor Stoen and Kimo Prokes, her own son. Carolyn said to me that Rev. Jones had told her that everyone was going to have to die that night. She said that she would probably have to shoot John and Kimo and that it would be easier for them if she did it while they were asleep.

35. In April, 1978, I was reassigned to Georgetown. I became determined to escape or die trying. I surreptitiously contacted my sister, who wired me a plane ticket. After I received the ticket, I sought the assistance of the United States Embassy in arranging to leave Guyana. Rev. Jones had instructed us that he had a spy working in the United States Embassy and that he would know if anyone went to the embassy for help. For this reason, I was very fearful.

36. I am most grateful to the United States government and Richard McCoy and Daniel Weber; in particular, for the assistance they gave me. However, the efforts made to investigate conditions in Jonestown are inadequate for the following reasons. The infrequent visits are always announced and arranged. Acting in fear for their lives, Temple members respond as they are told. The members appear to speak freely to American representatives, but in fact they are drilled thoroughly prior to each visit on what questions to expect and how to respond. Members are afraid of retaliation if they speak their true feelings in public.

37. On behalf of the population of Jonestown, I urge that the United States Government take adequate steps to safeguard their rights. I believe that their lives are in danger.

I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct, except as to those matters stated on information and belief and as to those I believe them to be true.

Executed this 15 day of June, 1978 at San Francisco, California.

(signed) Deborah Layton Blakey
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URwormfood · Mar 17, 2006

StrikerCW said:

Coming from heresay from my roomate that took a religion course in uni (if that means anything to you guys) he was taught that a cult is technically a sect of a religion that hasn't survived past one generation. Once a cult can surivive continuosly for a generation of members then it becomes a demonimation.

I am not sure how accurate this is, but figured I'd throw it in.
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Heck.... I was taught that in a Cat-a-holic Highschool....I always wonder why I never got an answer to my question:

Me: "So Christianity started as a cult?"

Brother Francis: "A funny glare.....ok lets talk about the Miracle at Fatima....take notes....Quiz on Monday."

~worm~

Barbara · Mar 17, 2006

Mel Brennan said:

Prescient?
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Holy shit.

Mel Brennan · Mar 17, 2006

Barbara said:

Holy shit.
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Barb, because I love you and because I know you like to have a clear heads-up on content, I'm tellng you...do not listen to that tape.

I've been spending today on the floor with my daughter in intense play just trying to dispel that heinous shit, and I listended to it 36 hours ago...still bothering me.

bojendyk · Mar 17, 2006

Mel Brennan said:

Barb, because I love you and because I know you like to have a clear heads-up on content, I'm tellng you...do not listen to that tape.

I've been spending today on the floor with my daughter in intense play just trying to dispel that heinous shit, and I listended to it 36 hours ago...still bothering me.
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I've heard the tape, as well as recounted testimony by a survivor about what happened that day. It disturbed me to no end, and it still bothers me to think about it, especially the fact that Jones chickened out himself and tried to escape with a massive amount of money.

bungadiri · Mar 17, 2006

Mel Brennan said:

Barb, because I love you and because I know you like to have a clear heads-up on content, I'm tellng you...do not listen to that tape.

I've been spending today on the floor with my daughter in intense play just trying to dispel that heinous shit, and I listended to it 36 hours ago...still bothering me.
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Totally agree--I heard it a while back (25th anniversary of the deaths, I think) and it still hangs around like an infection. It's the children that make it so horrible.

edcalvi · Mar 22, 2006

I'm not even gonna try to listen to this. I learned my lesson when I saw the Armstrong beheading by that militant group.

royalstilton · Mar 22, 2006

i think the word "cult" in the religious sense means something different to conservative Christians that it means to people who are less conservative-minded.

"cult" includes, for such Christians, the idea that there is heretical ( to Biblical Christianity ) teaching involved, a misguided or deliberate shift in theology, where a person or persons assigns to God or to themselves qualities that are not supported by the Bible. ( in Jones' case, maybe he was just crazy, with a messianic twist so popular among cult leaders. Rev Moon also comes to mind )

for example, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches that Jesus is a created being, the brother of the angel Lucifer. LDS teaching also includes the concept that the person referred to as "God" was once a man, though i must confess that i am not sure in what sense that is meant. God managed, thru some sort of self-improvement process to become God. i figure there's a lot of work involved in that, but it may have happened by divine self-revelation.

bungadiri · Mar 22, 2006

royalstilton said:

i think the word "cult" in the religious sense means something different to conservative Christians that it means to people who are less conservative-minded.

"cult" includes, for such Christians, the idea that there is heretical ( to Biblical Christianity ) teaching involved, a misguided or deliberate shift in theology, where a person or persons assigns to God or to themselves qualities that are not supported by the Bible. ( in Jones' case, maybe he was just crazy, with a messianic twist so popular among cult leaders. Rev Moon also comes to mind )

for example, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches that Jesus is a created being, the brother of the angel Lucifer. LDS teaching also includes the concept that the person referred to as "God" was once a man, though i must confess that i am not sure in what sense that is meant. God managed, thru some sort of self-improvement process to become God. i figure there's a lot of work involved in that, but it may have happened by divine self-revelation.
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Yep I think that's pretty accurate. More generally than that I'd say that when most of us these days use the word "cult" we use it disparagingly, to talk about something that's (in our opinion) obviously based on false premises, or is somehow strange or dangerous.

Anthropologists and other students of religious behavior tend to use the word less judgmentally, to refer to new or context-specific religious communities that haven't yet survived beyond a generation or two, or haven't generalized beyond a particular focus on an area of belief or person. For example, the so called Cargo Cults of 1930's Melanesia involved magical activities (et rituals involving wooden radios and airstrips) designed to draw the wealth and power of European cargo to the natives of places like Papua New Guinea. While some elements of Cargo Cults eventually expanded into a political movement advocating Papuan independence, Christian missionaries were successful enough that Cargo Cults as religious activities eventually died out (I believe--if anybody knows better please feel free to jump in here). I think Mormonism is a pretty good example of something that would have been called a cult at its beginnings in the 19th century, but now is rightly (by the standards of analysis) called a religion.

I also think that the members of a group so labeled would almost certainly reject either meaning described above.

bigredfutbol · Mar 22, 2006

bungadiri said:

While some elements of Cargo Cults eventually expanded into a political movement advocating Papuan independence, Christian missionaries were successful enough that Cargo Cults as religious activities eventually died out (I believe--if anybody knows better please feel free to jump in here).
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For the most part, they have died out--but the February issue of Smithsonian magazine had this article about one that is still thriving.

bungadiri · Mar 22, 2006

bigredfutbol said:

For the most part, they have died out--but the February issue of Smithsonian magazine had this article about one that is still thriving.
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Cool--thanks very much.

royalstilton · Mar 22, 2006

bungadiri said:

I think Mormonism is a pretty good example of something that would have been called a cult at its beginnings in the 19th century, but now is rightly (by the standards of analysis) called a religion.

I also think that the members of a group so labeled would almost certainly reject either meaning described above.
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---
the issue is whether Mormonism is "standard" Christianity, if such an animal exists, or something divergent.

the dictionary definition (dictionary.com) of cult goes like this: A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

in the case of Mormonism, much of the Christian community, the part that knows what Mormonism teaches, especially the specific part of Jesus being Lucifer's brother, would "generally consider false" that doctrine, which is a core position of their church.