I'm watching Dash v. Sky Blue. Less than 1/2 the starters are U.S. players. My interest in the league is as a developmental league for U.S. players. Having less than 1/2 of the players on the field being U.S. players diminishes my interest. The league is subsidized by U.S. soccer, it should be focused on U.S. players. Here's Man City Women's roster, as a point of comparison. What's the ratio of England to non-England players? And, does the EFA even put a penny into this squad? With the NWSL non-existent w/o the Fed, it should be predominantly U.S. players.
using Man city as an example is probably a bad idea. Let's look at how the men's squad fares in national development. Here's who they put on the pitch against Monaco Willy Caballero Sergio Agüero Raheem sterling Alexandar Kolarov Kevin De Bruyne Leroy Sane David Silva GAel Clichy John Stones Fernandinho Listed as subs were Bravo Zabaleta Navas Delph Otamendi Toure Iheanacho No cheating.... see if you can pick out the English players, but they are doing a fine job employing Argentina players...
Using their women's team is the point of comparison. Pick any other team from a decent women's league. Find one that isn't heavily dominated by domestic players. Using Man City's men team as a point of comparison is wrong in so many ways. 1) The PL is the richest, most watched league in the world. The league is not subsidized by the English FA. Think about how irrelevant that fact alone makes the comparison. 2) City is historically one of the least English teams in the PL. 3) England, as a team, wildly under performs in relation to the money generated by their top division and the wages paid. 4) The English media is in a constant state of kvetching about how the massive amount of non-English talent in the PL is suppressing the development of English players. t comes up as a topic on bbc sports talk show's on a weekly basis. Mind you, the topic isn't *whether* the huge numbers of non-English players is suppressing the development of English players, it's what to do about it. You couldn't have picked a league, and a team in particular, that is the topic of more concern about the proper balance between domestic and imported talent.
The solution naturally is to add expansion teams and up the roster sizes. Oh, but that will dilute the player pool, oh no. It's a catch 22 that we'll never solve.... /s When you have different people arguing both sides, it's usually a good sign that you've got a decent balance.
Considering how many players currently in the USWNT player pool have come up through NWSL, I think NWSL is doing just fine at development. Also, remember that the CSA is also putting money into the league, so if you're counting CAN players then your argument is flawed right off the bat. Well you clearly can't math. Of the two starting IXs in that game: HOU : 4 int'l, 5 US, 2 CAN NJ : 3 int'l, 7 US, 1 CAN Heck, even if you DID lump the Canadians into the int'l basket, it's still only 10 non-US players versus 12 US players. So you can't math. Your use of Man City, even for the women, still kinda defeats your own point. There are 6 international players on their squad of 20. Each NWSL team is allowed just 4 int'l slots, which they can admittedly be traded so individual teams might have more (namely the MLS-backed teams), but not all int'l spots are used, and there are only 10 allocated Canadians in the league, so either way Man City women actually beats the NWSL average in terms of international players. And remember that the FA literally runs the WSL. (USSF does not run NWSL.) And that the FA founded it with forcing the restructure of the English pyramid, so it would also be non-existent without the fed. And that the FA gave each of the original WSL members £70,000 a year for their first two years. So actually get a grip of the history and the league structures before complaining.
With regard to federations, I'm more interested in funds, not runs. "he FA gave each of the original WSL members £70,000 a year for their first two years" They don't give them anything now. The USSF keeps the NWSL afloat, if the USSF back out, the league would close up the next day. The FA could back out tomorrow and the women's league in England wouldn't lose a dime. As long as the USSF is funding the the league, then there should be a strong emphasis on showcasing/developing/paying U.S. players. I couldn't find City's roster for their last match, were more than 1/2 of their starters non-English? And, in the end, maybe City is a bad example. The USSF pays the bills for the NWSL, not so in England. "only 10 allocated Canadians" This is a side topic, why should there by any allocated Canadians?
Showcasing: hell yes. Have you not seen the cult of personality and the advertising focus on the USWNT players? And not just the USWNT players - Chicago is a prime example (and not the only example) of teams that promote and play their non-allocated US players incredibly well. Developing: see my post above about players joining the USWNT through NWSL. Paying: NWSL's minimum salary is higher than the average salary in all other top-level WoSo leagues. (Except maybe China with the new spending spree, but no one has good intel on China.) Anything else you want to ask of NWSL that it's already doing? My God, really? JUST GOOGLE IT. It's a cup final, it's NOT that hard to find. But to answer your question since you seem to like your echo chamber instead of actual research: four of the starting eleven. Not to mention this is a massive example of moving the goalposts. You initially asked and I answered it. Not the starters - the roster. But for the starters, City's 4 were higher than NJ's 3 and the same as HOU's 4 - unless you are truly dead-set on counting the Canadians, in which case City's 4 was the same as NJ's 4 four and under HOU's 7. However, You clearly have no clue how NWSL came to be. Or are just willfully ignoring that part of its history. It's not a "side topic" - NWSL was a joint effort by the USSF, CSA, and FMF to keep their current NT players in-practice and to develop upcoming NT players. The FMF ultimately dropped out because they felt their players weren't getting the practice and development; the CSA has remained in because they feel the league is doing that for their players. If you're asking why the CSA is allocating anyone, you've missed the point of NWSL in the first place.
Uh, no? To give you my perspective, I'm a big sports fan, but I'm more interested in spending time with my family than sitting on the couch. So, in the past month, the only sports I've watched was NWSL matches that I've dvr'd. I am completely unaware of any "cult of personality and the advertising focus on the USWNT players? And not just the USWNT players" Who? Seriously, fill me in. Because for a month, the only sports I've watched was NWSL, and I don't know who you're talking about. I'm sure you'll hyperventilate while filling me in, using exclamation points! and Italics AND ALLCAPS! and appeals to God. The cult building that I recall, has been a piece on Sinclair, positing that she's the best female player of all time. The piece on Rodriguez, A bunch of discussion about Kerr, a ton of shots of Marta scowling on the bench, with Jenny Taft reporting that she'd taken another sip of water (that's six, now!) (I'm not blaming Jenny, that's the producer's, and basically the league's decision). And the interview with Pugh this week. Was there one on Lavelle? This is a red herring. Uh, basically all the WNT players will come from NWSL. That's how it works. Except for the rare straight-from-college player, the WNT will come from the league.* That doesn't mean that the league isn't giving roster spots and pay checks to non-U.S. players that I'd like to see go to U.S. players. *The Fed told Press to come back to NWSL or kiss your WNT roster spot (basically, your livelihood) good bye. Of course the roster pool is going to come from NWSL http://footballschristenpress.blogspot.com/2014/01/win-or-go-home.html#comment-form I went to the Man City Women's website. I couldn't find the starting 11 on there: http://manchestercity.fawsl.com/news.html#1DARImSsI5vo8km6.97 Where is it? Like when I said that the NWSL would die without the Fed money where as the English ladies league would be just fine, and you responded that the FA used to give money to the English ladies league? That kind of goal post moving? Why wouldn't I be? I'm a fan of the USWNT. Not the CWNT. (Houston had 6, Mr./Ms. "Can't do maths.") Yep, I forgot that. The point of the NWSL is to develop Canadian players? I think you're overstating your point a little. Please define what you're saying the point of NWSL is. So, ok, I understand that why 10 spots are allocated to Canadian players (though, I think that the USSF did not need whatever $$ was put in by Canada in return for selling out spots that could have gone to U.S. players. But, they did.) So, reduce the number of spots that go to other non-U.S. players. I'd rather watch a U.S. eligible player than players such as: Daly; Prince; VanWyck; Bruna; and Galton. And, with that, you get the last word. I've spent wayyyyy to much time on this thread (I could have watched another NWSL match), for simply posting that I think the league has too many internationals, I'd rather be watching more U.S. players.
If you're seeing just what's been on TV, and you've only been watching for the past month or so, then I'll apologize and forgive you for that very limited exposure. The "cult of personality" I refer to is something that's hovered over NWSL since its founding, and it manifests in multiple ways. Both with my local team (the Spirit) and from reports of other fans on this board, the vast, vast majority of game-by-game advertising by teams is highlighting which USWNT star (or stars) is (are) coming to visit that the next home game. In the first year or two of the league, the visiting team was a very strong predictor of how good or bad that game's attendance would be. The attendance swings have more or less died down now, though they're still strong in a few cities (CHI, DC, HOU) and the Spirit have even taken things a step further this season and now have variable pricing depending on which team is visiting. Much of the league-wide discussion also seems to focus on USWNT players. Fans and pundits alike seem to measure the league by what the USWNT players do, with many feeling that the USWNT players often seem to get to do whatever they want, often to the detriment of their club teams. For example: -Year 1, much ado was made about how many games Solo and Rapinoe would or wouldn't play for Seattle -Year 3, Wambach decides to just sit out the season. Similarly, Lloyd opted to not return to HOU for quite a while in year 4 after the Olympics. -Year 4, Orlando joins the league and it looks like veritable mountains are moved so that Morgan can go be with her husband and be the "face of the team" - before missing most of the season -Year 5, SO MUCH hand-wringing and overblown fear about the fate of the league because a few top-level players - Morgan, Dunn, Lloyd - decide to go play overseas for a while And I do make a point to bring up the fans because the are jokes around about how you just don't mention some players depending on where you are online, because no matter what you say, you'll bring out armies of fanatics and haters alike (specifically, Press on The Equalizer and Harris on Twitter come to mind). So yes, both in terms of promotion and in terms of fan reaction, there's a massive cult of personality for the USWNT players withing NWSL. I mentioned CHI in my previous post as an example of a team that's done a great job of advertising its own non-allocated players (even if they focus on the allocated players of visiting teams) even before they did the #MKoT rebrand. HOU with Ohai (before the finally broke into the NT picture) and DC with Lohman are two other examples where the teams do a great job of building up a non-allocated fan favorite. You asked about NWSL developing players. Of all the players that have started getting caps in the past year, most got them thanks to what they've been able to show in the league, as opposed to getting senior caps just coming up through the NT-pipeline (which is actually how many players in the past have done it in the past, even the recent past - so your comment that "Except for the rare straight-from-college player, the WNT will come from the league." honestly isn't true). If you don't count those league-driven call-ups as development, I don't know what you're actually asking for. Google will show you game reports from many sites. BBC. Guardian. Telegraph. Even Fox Sports. That's not moving the goalposts, that's you not being able to follow properly. You asked "And, does the EFA even put a penny into this squad?" and I included that comment in my response to say yes, the FA has directly given money not just to ManCity but to all WSL teams. If I wasn't going to response to your question, I wouldn't have included it in what I quoted. And that's fine to be a fan of whoever you want. But as for the point of NWSL, it was founded as a place for current NTers to get weekly, professional experience and for upcoming NTers to be identified, and all three national federations signed in to that. Granted, there will be less "development" of the upcoming Canadian players since it's harder for them to get into the league unless they're allocated or dual-citizen, but the CSA is using its allocations as potential development tools with a history of allocating players who hadn't actually been capped yet - and there's no way to deny they're seeing the value in at least letting current NTers keep getting that weekly experience (I made a point of pointing out both purposes for a reason).
I don't see that as a distinction worth making. I want to see NWSL thrive as one of the top leagues in the world, with the best players and the best competition. Then playing in it, and winning it, means something. Dilute it artificially just to make yourself a big frog in a small pond, and it would be second-tier by design. Also, if half the teams are getting shellacked every week because they can't plug glaring roster gaps, that makes everybody on those teams look worse, which defeats the point of showcasing them. 4 int'l slots per team is a fairly standard bar for woso leagues world-wide. The problem isn't too few slots for USA players; it's too little $$$$ to entice them into staying in the league. If it paid as much as WNBA, we'd see US veterans stay 10+ years, gain wisdom, and wrest more slots back by actually being the best available option. Instead, every season we get some early retirements among the US kids, as the grind just isn't worth the ongoing fiscal hit. The roster-cut goes both ways: NWSL has (not-so-)quietly ground up and discarded some highly-touted int'l players, too. Being a stud overseas doesn't necessarily translate to NWSL's helter-skelter speed.
You picked the team, not me. http://www.skybluefc.com/player/christie-rampone-4/ She isn't even allocated
That "very limited exposure" is way more than the vast majority of soccer fans in the U.S. To be clear, I watched some matches on Youtube the last few years. To be more clear, I'm a soccer fan. My friends are soccer fans. I don't know anyone who has watched an NWSL match. I used to coach a women's soccer team and none of those women have watched an NWSL match. None of this has anything to do with whether there should be more U.S. eligible players playing in NWSL, but if you're going to belittle my knowledge of NWSL, I gotta say, it is wayyyyyyy more than the average soccer fan in the U.S. Clearly, it pales compared to the average NWSL fan, but that is a paper thin segment of the U.S. soccer fan pool. . This has nothing to do with my assertion that there should be more U.S. eligible players in the league. "Massive cult"? Nothing regarding NWSL is massive. Aside from attendance in Portland, it's all infinitessimal. So ..... you're saying that prior to NWSL, there were WNT players who played poorly in whatever U.S. women's league was in existence, but were still called up regularly? Who? Of course I count them as league driven call ups. Where did I say otherwise? Are you being intentionally stupid? I've said "I'd rather watch a U.S. eligible player than players such as: Daly; Prince; VanWyck; Bruna; and Galton" and I've said, "As long as the USSF is funding the the league, then there should be a strong emphasis on showcasing/developing/paying U.S. players." If there were more U.S. eligible players on rosters and playing, more U.S. players would be getting developed. And, reaping the reward of being a professional. And, setting the example for the next generation of U.S. player that you can get a pay check for playing soccer. That "very limited exposure" is way more than the vast majority of soccer fans in the U.S. To be clear, I watched some matches on Youtube the last few years. To be more clear, I'm a soccer fan. My friends are soccer fans. I don't know anyone who has watched an NWSL match. I used to coach a women's soccer team and none of those women have watched an NWSL match. None of this has anything to do with whether there should be more U.S. eligible players playing in NWSL, but if you're going to belittle my knowledge of NWSL, I gotta say, it is wayyyyyyy more than the average soccer fan in the U.S. Clearly, it pales compared to the average NWSL fan, but that is a paper thin segment of the U.S. soccer fan pool. . This has nothing to do with my assertion that there should be more U.S. eligible players in the league. "Massive cult"? Nothing regarding NWSL is massive. Aside from attendance in Portland, it's all infinitessimal. So ..... you're saying that prior to NWSL, there were WNT players who played poorly in whatever U.S. women's league was in existence, but were still called up regularly? Who? Of course I count them as league driven call ups. Where did I say otherwise? Again, this has nothing to do with my post. I looked on the teams website. Didn't find it there, asked for help as to where to find it. This is you being a jerk, and trying to deflect from the topic at hand. I asked "do" you replied with "did." That is moving the goalpost.
We have different goals. I want the NWSL to be the best league it can be for developing U.S. talent. The PL is arguably the best league in the world, and the English will tell you it's got big problems developing English talent. Any restriction on international players is a "dilution." That is absolutely a bigger problem. But, it has nothing to do with whether there should be fewer internationals on rosters. In fact, if the money is there to entice 2nd tier internationals to come over (like the ones I mentioned above), then maybe that money should be used to pay U.S. players to keep playing.
You picked the club. I just showed what their agenda towards development of English players is when it counts and money is on the line. But it doesn't matter. Go on with your analogy. I'd rather the nwsl be a premier league that recruits the best talent than another development league. The EPL is probably the model the league will be more successful at than another development league. We already have a couple of those that play to empty stadiums.
Remember when there were just 3 international slots, then it was "temporarily" expanded to 4 in 2015 because somehow having more internationals was supposed to help when there was a big international tournament and internationals would miss a large portion of the season. And then of course that temporary expansion became a permanent expansion. And then they even gave Orlando an extra international slot for 2 years when they joined... I just love how the the NWSL "rules" are enforced.
Of course it doesn't, because it was specifically answering your question to explain what I meant about the cult of personality within NWSL. This in turn was a response to one of three things (the showcasing part of showcasing/developing/paying) you had said you needed a "strong emphasis" in NWSL.You're mixing and matching which of my answers go with which of your questions without paying attention to which thread of the conversation you're in. Absolute versus relative. My point was that dialogue about NWSL has historically been almost completely dominated by topics directly concerning USWNT players. That's the cult of personality. And if you need extra reading, try this: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/feat...ional-players-underappreciated-sam-kerr-uswnt This is what I'm talking about. No, clearly if someone is playing poorly, their status in the NT pool is going to drop. What I was saying was that, in terms of development, many players first joined the USWNT either by climbing through the youth ranks or by strong showings in college. The number of players identified through whatever professional league has been in existence has generally been very small, though, which is a sign of lacking development. For the WUSA and WPS eras, it's easier to name players that were grown and identified in the leagues as opposed to youth NTs or college. Shanon Boxx and Abby Wambach were the biggest names that we got from WUSA but there were barely any more; Becky Sauerbrunn was essentially the only player who broke in the NT because of her play in WPS (she had been on youth NTs, but didn't impress in her first senior caps and didn't have her breakthrough until after she had shined in the league). You didn't - but you've been acting like NWSL isn't doing a good job of developing players. My point is it's actually doing an incredible job of identifying and growing new talent. Okay, no - you broke my statement in half to directly remove the context. As I said earlier, NWSL is already doing an incredible job of developing players. US eligible players makes up nearly 80% of the league, and it's resulted in way more players that weren't getting NT looks otherwise than either of the past leagues ever did. It seems to me that you're turning a blind eye to all the new players Ellis has called up in the past two years, and that's why I asked I don't know what else you could mean by having the league develop players. YOU were the one to bring up Man City and ask how many internationals they had. I answered. You then asked how many internationals started the Cup Final. I told you where to look as well as directly gave you the number. You went to go look somewhere that didn't happen to have the starting lineup instead of one of the many places that did have a starting lineup. I would argue that's semantics. But you were acting like the FA was completely hands-off in the funding of the WSL, while point remains that the investment was there and was necessary for the league to have begun. But when I gave you that 70k figure, you then acted as if that was my answer to the do-or-die-without-the-fed comment, which was ridiculous because I had specifically said that the FA directly runs the WSL while USSF does not run NWSL. Again, a case of mixing and matching which of my answers go with which of your questions. The WSL would disappear without the FA, while NWSL would simply lose its USWNT players if USSF stopped supporting it.
This is definitely a fair point. The presence of internationals in the league has been inching up on those two (three?) occasions. But I'd still say it's by no means out to lunch. As was also pointed out earlier, four internationals per team is pretty standard in the WoSo world. And NWSL, unlike other leagues, very explicitly favors the USWNT pool, which other leagues around the world don't do.