It’s time to have an honest discussion about our home support and the SJ Ultras

1. I evidently was not copied on your emails, because I don't remember them. I only know what you posted on BigSoccer and in PMs to me.

2. In my view, there's no context in which collective punishment is appropriate, and if you tried to get the ban lifted, I assume you agree that collective punishment was not appropriate in the Ultras' context in 2013. I don't know why you could not say that straightforwardly on BigSoccer at the time, with words such as, "I stand in solidarity with the innocent Ultras who are being unjustly punished."

3. That's not the way I read the PM back-and-forth. I understood you to be advising me against threatening legal action.

And, as mentioned, my bitterness is a reflection of the scab that has been removed by this thread.That and the serious principle that seems to have eluded so many.

 

An answer to the Timbers Army and their fascistic glorification of street thuggery:

. . . "One has to take sides," Shuja Haider wrote at Jacobin, echoing other voices on the left. . . .

Take a side? You bet. But Haider and company are trying to force a false choice. They'd have you believe that advocates of free speech, open society, tolerance, and peaceful political change have to pick between fascists with tiki torches and masked "anti-fascists" clashing with them in the streets. But advocates of a free, open, and liberal society are a side—the correct side—and the left-wing and right-wing thugs battling in the streets are nothing more than rival siblings from a dysfunctional illiberal family . . .

Fight-club dates? Yes. This is an old and unoriginal kabuki theater of political violence, echoing another period when demoralized advocates of liberal democracy were urged to pick between competing brands of illiberalism as if their own set of principles didn't represent a side in itself.

"Antifa traces its roots to the 1920s and '30s, when militant leftists battled fascists in the streets of Germany, Italy, and Spain," notes Peter Beinart in The Atlantic.

Partisans of "pick a side" insist that every mention of violence by both right-wing and left-wing thugs is an exercise in "whataboutism." That is, an attempt to deflect from one's own sins by invoking the misdeeds of the opposition . . .

But that doesn't mean we have to pick a competing brand of ideological awfulness as a viable alternative to fascism. The thugs on the left have already proved themselves to be violent and intolerant. There's no reason to favor one illiberal force over another when our country has a long history based on much different, and much better, political principles. . . .

We do have to pick a side. But we already have one. Despite our many differences over specific policies, most Americans have traditionally supported the side of liberty, tolerance, free speech, and peaceful political change, within broad parameters. That side is in opposition to the violent, authoritarian thugs of the right and of the left. If we regain our faith in what we already have, there's no reason to choose between rival siblings competing to rule over the ruins of everything that's worthwhile on behalf of their illiberal family.

https://reason.com/2017/08/22/choose-sides-you-bet-but-antifa-and-fasc

 

More "logic". Post Portland Ultras were asked to police their own better. Shortly later two brothers who again like the thread starter and many others were welcomed with open arms decide to physically assault a fellow ultra during a private event. Ultras leadership takes action, get rid of these two violent elements. Next season the same two people start a new group with revenge in mind: Imperio Sismico. Plenty of provocations for the Ultras who keep their cool. The Ultras are being trolled, the members of the other group talk plenty of shit about the Ultras online. Evidence is right there even nowadays you see the leftover guys from that group insulting the Ultras any chance they get. You do not see one Ultra posting anything about Imperio Sismico or other fellow groups or regular fans. The hate is always a one way avenue and the Ultras are at the dead end. Eventually a couple of seasons later this group disbands. Public statement: the two leaders who were kicked out by the Ultras for violent behavior admit that it was too much work and they called it quits. The usual Bigsoccer anti-Ultras members "The ultras are too be blamed for the IS not succeeding and disbanding". The hatred is real.

 

This whole conversation about Antifa really takes us off topic, I doubt seriously that Timbers Army soccer fans as a whole endorse street thuggery or Antifa or their tactics. They may have bad elements in their ranks but they will sort that out, I imagine most of them are just there to support their team and have some fun, probably looking for a distraction from politics if anything.

I do agree with the sentiment above though.

 

More "logic" seen on here: "I wish we had groups like LAFC, Portland or Seattle. I won't do anything about it, but someone needs to do it. Meanwhile we will slander those who are trying to do something for the atmosphere. "

Facts: All these groups accept money from their front office. Leaders are on club's payroll making big money from that and merch. LAFC group leaders were bought trips to Dortumund to "learn the trade". Paid trips, paid tifos. Supporter specific sections given. Meanwhile...Portland and Seattle throw a tantrum and leave their teams because they cannot hold Antifa rally inside the stadiums. But of course though, Ultras are all about themselves...LAFC has the most violent things in the league. They got into fights repeatedly, threw objects on the pitch, chant homophobic chants. I witnessed myself four attempts of assaulting our traveling fans a couple of months ago. Old Quakes fan being dragged on the pavement. 17-18 year old Quakes fan punched repeatedly. Don't believe it? Call the Quakes head of the security and ask. But yes, The Ultras are violent and we want LAFC fans...The double standard and the bias are amazing. Some based on ignorance and lack of research, but some based on pure hatred for a group that was always supportive and inviting to other Quakes fans and that has always made everything happen out of love, dedication and hard work without any help from the front office, not even a decent supporter section.

 

Tbh proud smurf, rivalries between sg’s and all that related nonsense is just a great big *yawn* for me and most fans who just want to enjoy the beautiful game - all the stuff you’re going on about seems like grade school squabbling and has nothing to do with supporting your soccer team. My advice, stay out of the weeds, keep it simple, enjoy the game. It’s supposed to be fun.

 

The Timbers Army is all about the politics. It's not a distraction, it's their essence. Because Portland.

The Timbers Army just sent representatives to Las Vegas to negotiate with MLS executives to allow them to continue to display a banner, the Iron Front, representing a political party's paramilitary auxiliary. If you agree with me that political parties in liberal democracies should not have paramilitary wings, and that the Iron Front is the flip side of the Nazi coin and contrary to American values, than you can begin to understand why I analogize the Timbers Army in-game pageantry as akin to a Nuremberg rally.

Mind you, I agree with the Timbers Army that they should be allowed to fly their Iron Front flags, and MLS should rescind its no politics policy, but my reasons are grounded on liberal as opposed to illiberal values. Everyone should be able to display whatever banner they choose, even disgusting banners like that of the Iron Front.

It's not off-topic, because while the Timbers Army tries to turn Portland games into political rallies, ala Nuremberg, the San Jose Ultras have always been expressly non-political, in part because some of their leaders have lived under communist regimes. No one has bothered to compliment them on their self-discipline in this regard.

 

This Fascism nonsense that people talk about in Portland and Seattle becoming a major problem in America is so hilarious. Let's just say USA has a better chance of winning the 2022 WC, than America becoming a fascist state. 99 percent of people going to watch a soccer game go to actually watch the game, not someone waving a damn iron front flag in the stands thinking they're making a difference. If the current admin was fascist these "protesters" would have disappeared never to be heard or seen again.

 

Too bad we cant teleport them back in time to Eastern Europe and let them experience real Fascism.

 

Why not?

I would not like it, but I would respect their right to exercise freedom of expression.

 

This reminds me of something I just heard on MLS ExtraTime. Sam Stejskal asked Wilmer Cabrera if it was tough having owner Joey Saputo come into the locker room after Montreal’s game (I guess they lost?). Anyhow, Cabrera, who played in Columbia in the 80s-90s, said that back then, when the drug lord came into the locker room post-game, THAT was scary.

 

Some things are so offensive, incendiary and hateful that they have no place in the public square, let alone the friendly neighborhood soccer game. By now we’ve reached a level of absurdity if you’re really suggesting that swastikas should be tolerated at soccer games.

 

LOL. So Cabrera was calling Joey Saputo a mafiosi?

 

If you really think that Don, then you don’t understand racism and where it comes from. People stand behind symbols, whether graphic or human, and then feel free to harass or dehumanize targeted people because they are different.

This is why German clubs are outspokenly anti-Nazi, because they don’t want it to happen again.

 

No I assume Cabrera meant he wasn’t worried about Joey Saputo. Anything less than a Columbian drug lord is not scary, i guess.

 

Where do you draw the line? Censorship does not stop with swastikas. First they remove confederate statutes in the Deep South, and then it's a Depression-era mural of George Washington in San Francisco.

 

Try flying an Israeli flag in the Timbers Army section and see who's racist.

 

The Germans have far larger problems with racism than Americans do. Today. Not just 75 years ago.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/23/6316...-says-he-quit-national-team-because-of-racism

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...oy-sane-racism-premier-league-manchester-city

 

This conversation is becoming too broad and too removed from the original topic - I’m still wondering why our SG went from the huge numbers we saw at Buck Shaw, bouncing the bleachers until they nearly collapsed, to a huge impressive group that we saw once Avaya opened, to the much smaller group today? and, what can be done to help them rebuild?

 

proud smurf answered your question, in part, and you dismissed what he told you with the reply:

" . . . all the stuff you’re going on about seems like grade school squabbling and has nothing to do with supporting your soccer team. My advice, stay out of the weeds . . ."

Both Faultline and Imperio Seismico were/are Ultras splinter groups. You keep advocating for "unity" but no one ever asks for an "honest discussion" about these groups (or about any other MLS supporters group).

 

In 1978, the ACLU took a controversial stand for free speech by defending a neo-Nazi group that wanted to march through the Chicago suburb of Skokie , where many Holocaust survivors lived. The notoriety of the case caused some ACLU members to resign, but to many others the case has come to represent the ACLU's unwavering commitment to principle. In fact, many of the laws the ACLU cited to defend the group's right to free speech and assembly were the same laws it had invoked during the Civil Rights era, when Southern cities tried to shut down civil rights marches with similar claims about the violence and disruption the protests would cause. Although the ACLU prevailed in its free speech arguments, the neo-Nazi group never marched through Skokie, instead agreeing to stage a rally at Federal Plaza in downtown Chicago.

https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie

 

The Rose City Anfia (and by extension the Timbers Army) rejects the liberal worldview of the ACLU:

. . . Unlike the ACLU, whose supposed defense of “freedom” leads them to support the KKK and neo-Nazis, we support self-defense and self-determination above all. What’s the purpose of free speech, if not to foster a world free from oppression? Fascists oppose this vision; thus we oppose fascism by any means necessary. (Emphasis added).

http://rosecityantifa.org/faq/

"Any means necessary" -- including violence.

 

We ignore facts and explanations because the lies posted by the individual who wanted to have an "honest" LOL discussion fits their agenda better. Let's just keep pretending that the Faultline and Imperio did not work out because the Ultras did voodoo. It fits their narrative better than the actual truth

 

Coming from someone who wants a whole group of people who poured their hearts, hard earned money and work into the Quakes organization for 16 years completely wiped out because they didn't support her #savethecrew move. Fascist mentality.

 

Maybe these groups are inherently conflict prone and thereby unsustainable. I have know idea why the Faultline and Seismico groups splintered off, perhaps you’d be willing to have some honest conversation and tell us about that? I suspect that in much the same way that there exist elements within TA that would like to take the group in a direction that’s unpopular, maybe the same thing happened here? Some people maybe can’t separate their politics from soccer, perhaps some are interested confrontation and conflict while others really just want to have fun, enjoy the game and at most, want a little light hearted good natured rivalry as we saw with the Casbah... I really don’t know but there seems to be a pervasive sense of tension and conflict about all this which seems ridiculous....should just be fun, and simple, it’s soccer for gods sake and we’re all cheering for the same team, what am I missing?