ignorant he played in Brasil so what? the best futebol country in the world, if you can be a star in Brasil where the people know the sport that well, you will be a star anywhere, he was worshiped in Japan and in europe but you don't know that kid, because since you're born yesterday and you haven't seen the best of the best as the 82 team like I did see. you have to be happy with gornaldo and dream that he is some great deal ahahah u r a joke
you know what? i really like you man! you call it as you see fit and could careless! str8 from the heart! hahahahahahahahah! bold!! keep posting my man! you kinda remind me of me!
I am one of the fortunate fans that managed to watch both Zico and Ronaldo play (yes I'm that old). With all due respect I don't think a top form Zico is close to a top form Ronaldo. leonidas and other fans keep throwing the 'you have not watched Zico' line way too much. As if they're using that line as back up and proof that he was better than Ronaldo. People talk about how present players get more praise now by fans because they are seldomly seen playing, but really, also old school players get this 'aura' of being untouchable. To mention anyone alongside Pele for example is taboo, it's a crime! He's Pele for God's sake. You get my drift? That's borderline ignorant too and unfortunately it has been displayed in this thread often. Ronaldo is having a tough time currently, mostly due to injuries, and people like Colorado_GAUCHO obviously get blinded with that fact. Mind you Ronaldo has one of the best goal to game ratios in the world despite all the criticisms. I remember he got criticized for scoring 23 La Liga goals once and fans everywhere saying he had a bad season. If any other striker scored that much it would probably have been their greatest season ever! That's the high standards that Ronaldo has set for himself. I'm a Madrid fan and I can tell you that Ronaldo was receiving no service whatsoever but still scoring bucketloads. He got us many undeserved points. It's in his blood. He missed nearly half the last season but still was our topscorer. I don't think he gets enough credit and some mind-numbing freaks would rather repeat the same ole dreary fat jokes. It's sad. Anyways back to topic, I think the pre-injury Ronaldo is easily better than Zico. Some would consider him up there with Pele and Maradona, others even better. So in my humble opinion I think after Pele comes Ronaldo.. a guy who adapted himself after 2 career threatening injuries and still kept doing what he was born for.. and thats to score goals. His achievements speak for themselves and he had skills that no other strikers could ever dream of. I mean which other player has the audacity to do a step over on a goalkeeper in the first minutes of a WC knock out game? That was the first time I've seen such a thing. Ronaldo has really changed the game and in his prime he didn't even need the Zidane's and Ronaldinho's to win games. Heck they just passed him the ball and he did everything himself. That's why I think he was second best. That Ronaldoooo! dude might be over-exaggerating his comments but really should not be deemed stupid for that. He at least tries to draw arguments.. something the people against him have not.
Good post. I understand your point of view. The individual skills that Ronaldo had pre-injury are unmatched. But IMO what makes Zico a better player is the fact that he made everyone around him better. Ronaldo is very much a one-man show. But Zico was a team player with exceptional individual skills like dribbling, shooting, short and long passing.
Argument goes both ways, you need a balance team to win at club level. Something I admit Ronaldo hasn't done that good but not bad either like Zico in the International level. These great players are one of the best but because of them not winning the WC, It might be in favor of Ronaldo (when he retires) to be ranked ahead of them. Because, like i said he still 29 years and can improve his club achievemnts and if he did that then the argument for best ever would start. Cuz internationally, his achievements are better than most of these legends including Pele.
I realize you haven't had the opportunity to argue these points against Ronaldoooo yourself, but since he has apologized for his lack of civility I suggest we just drop a lot of these claims and start fresh.
Haven't seen your opinion Ombak. I think your 2nd pick is Garrincha ... but do you rank Zico as the 3rd ?
I'm not saying that. All i'm saying is that at the international level his achievements are better than Pele. It's not my opinion but rather a fact. 1 World Cup in 2002, second place finish in 98 while also winning the golden ball, 2 Copa Americas, and breaking Mullers record to become the all-time wc top scorer with 15 goals. But of course, Pele has scored so many goals for Brazil so in goals departement he has the edge and he still the best ever.
I don't see what you are talking about. Pele' won 2 World Cups and was part of a 3rd World Cup victory. He scored in 2 different finals. Ronaldo has more goals (15 to 12), but he also played 4 more games (18 to 14). I must mention as well Pele' was hurt in 62 against Czechoslovakia and against Portugal in 66. So in essence he played 12 full games. I am sure had he played 18 full games, he would have at least 15 goals. Copa America is a different story. Eventhough Pele' was a high scorer of the competition in 59.
Ronaldo also took part in 94 but i think we all know that doesn't count. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13579685/ "When it comes to the World Cup, though, not even Pele, the trendsetter for soccer’s single-name elite, is Ronaldo’s equal." Copa America is an international achievement, or am i wrong? Ronaldo was also top scorer in 97 i think. Its unfortunate that Pele didn't play that much games and could have improven his goal tally, but so would Ronaldo if he played in 94 World Cup.
But still. Pele' has one more World Cup and he actually played a game and a half in 62 having scored one goal. While Ronaldo was on the bench for the whole of 94. So he has 2 full World Cup victory participations (well, in 58 he played from the 3rd game on) against Ronaldo's one. You don't point that out on your post.
In which years Ronaldo was in top form? Maybe 96-97 season and 2002. Otherwise he was a great letdown in 1998 wc and 2006 worldcups. He is 29 and can not even run for full 90 minutes. Zico has kept his form for long long years .....In fact all great players does. Even when he was playing in Japan ( when he was 35-37 years old ) he had shown his mastery. Compare him to this Fat Ronaldo who can not even walk at the age of 29....Hmmmmm . Hope Dunga takes the decision this guy deserves
I'd say Ronaldo was at his best from 95-98. Then 02-04. Although in 03-04 you could already see him not running as much as before.
I fear hard man Ombak will shortly be telling people to talk about Zico and not Ronaldo. I can feel his presence.
i would argue that ronaldo had arguably one of the greatest single seasons in history following WC02. not only was he a dominant force in the World Cup, but he had a stunning season for Madrid following his WC triumph leading them to the league title. he played relatively well in the CL, but madrid didnt win it.
Have you thought for a second that he had a career threatning injury? And why aren't you including his Brazilian club days? Ronaldo was amazing from 1993 playing for Cruzeiro till 1998 when he suffered an ugly injury that almost ended his career. Now lets do the match, thats 5 straight years playing awsome football. He returned to football in 2002, which should be considered an accomplishement itself and played brilliant not to his pre-injury days but still good enough to be on top of the World again. His reign ended in 2004 but he still remained top 5 striker. Lets do the math again, so he was still amazing from 2002 since his return till 2004 and was above average from 04 till 06. Overall, he was consistently brilliant for 7 straight years, and in those years is already considered one of the true legends of the game. And he still young and if somehow gets in shape again. We'll be up for more brilliant display from O Fenomeno .
I disagree with Ombak there. The thread starter is asking "Is Zico the best Brasilian footballer (pele not included"? And as far as i know Ronaldo is Brazilian and its not like he doesn't have a case in this discussion. His fooball resume speaks otherwise. So if it comes down to comparison between the two players, be it. I agree though that this whole thing should be discussed in a civil way.
Dude, that's a pretty weak argument. All you have to do is compare goals per game ratio. From the data you guys are presenting, Pele has a higher ratio. Even if you count 94, Pele has 3 to Ronaldo's 2 and he actually played over 60 minutes in all three. You can also look at winning ratio including WC qualifiers. You have not backed your claim of Ronaldo's better international record or performance. I just saw Pele Eterno, so I'm pretty high on him right now. This thread is not really about Pele vs Ronaldo but I just wanted to respond to your claim and ask you to provide more evidence. Touting more WC goals does not suffice. Both players have played enough game for us to compare goals per game or even per minutes ratio. BTW: why do we omit Romario from this conversation. Someone explain to me why Zico should be regarded higher than Romario? Seriously, I'm bias toward Romario so I refrain from making any claim. I'd like to hear some of your analyses on this. For me, Romario is still my hero when it comes to the selacao.
well, it depends on what you want. if you want an extremely complete player...a well-rounded one, it would probably go pele first and zico second. now if you wanted a striker, well, it gets a lot harder. i argued about this a few pages back, but ronaldoooooo doesnt seem to care about history so to him, a discussion of leonidas and friedenreich is worthless...both of whom are probably the founders of attacking brazilian football. as for romario, well, if you wanted a pure scorer who could score goals...i would probably pick him. romario just scores goals. to this day, i think you'll have a hard time finding a pure striker as good as him. he might only be surpassed by Der Bomber himself, Mr Muller...but Romario might even be equal to him...and it's all the more amazing when you consider his height and weight.
Well said.. If we are talking about a complete player .. who can score goals who can create goals who can give mesmarising passes who can score from free kicks who is a leader in and out of field.. Then zico is far far above Ronaldo .Idon't know whether Pele was as good as zico in dead ball sistuations.I doubt so..Any way when we talk about a player second to Pele then I don't think anybody else comes other than Zico.. May be we can add Garncha and Rivaldo as third and 4th ...