Bobby Charlton lol - veron must have said that to try to impress the fans when he was at man utd. About this pele maradona thing. I have seen alot of footage of pele over the years, as you know i am a fan of brazilian football. Pele was an amazing player, a genius, a pioneer... but Maradona had better skills, control and technique and was certainly a better dribbler.
I've not followed everything so closely, but I think it is Juan Ramon Veron who placed Charlton as 2nd best ever (not sure if a date is given regarding the statement)? I guess mainly influenced after playing against Man Utd and probably previously watching the 1966 World Cup on TV and suchlike?
Yes, it is the father Ramon, not the son Sebastian, who considers Charlton the 2nd best he ever saw based on what he saw presumably only in those games you mentioned plus the 1970 WC, I guess. The son rates Maradona as the best.
Yeah, I guess you already understood which Veron it was. Maybe Giles didn't know it wasn't Juan Seba. Possibly he'd get to see some English league, or European Cup, highlights occasionally but I really don't know about that. Probably some Manchester United goals would get shown from time to time in Argentina, but not regular live 1st Division games.
It’s just a belief system, that he should even be considered the GOAT. Too bad many of his club matches aren’t available, where I should resort to watching his WC performances, friendly and few Copa Libertadores matches he played and the Bella Kona YT compilations.
Yeah, I thought so. I can imagine it could have happened in his first press interview while sitting next to him or something lol (maybe he could have picked up a few tips by watching his long range shooting or passing and admired him as a result!). But yeah, it was his Dad. I remember Michael Owen talking to the Madrid press about how his own Dad told him stories about Gento, soon after he signed for Real!
I disagree ... Pelé had more individual resources to beat opponents ... so, was more complete at dribbling than Maradona and for me Pelé was more impressive and unstoppable.
In my opinion, Pele was smarter to break defensive systems and beat his opponents and that was because his mentality was very vertical toward the goal and this in turn was given by the influence he had for the goal. In contrast Maradona, being a full playmaker, had a different intelligence, his field vision was wider because he could use more resources such as crossing the ball, sending a long pass, going to the wings, etc. and I'm going to advance a bit towards future comments that could be given ... for my Maradona is the best game creator that has been but the level of Pele in playmaking skills I also consider to have been among the best, however I have always seen in games and videos of Pele that his ability to create a game was very vertical and Maradona could take more roads. In conclusion ... both had different intelligence and each of them has been the best in what they did. Very true. I have always believed that Pele's teams played for him, whereas Maradona played for his teams. Finally, I do not think either option is better, that is, both options seem equally valid.
The creation of advanced game, is mainly (not only) associated with the chances created (assists + key pass), number and accuracy of passes, If we look at the greats Advanced Playmaker of the World Cup, we find interesting facts about the performance: CHANCES CREATED Cruyff 1974 = 5.1. per game Pelé 1970 = 4.7 per game Maradona 1986 = 3.9 per game Messi 2014 = 3.0 per game PASSES PER GAME Cruyff 1974 = 47.4 Pelé 1970 = 41.5 Messi 2014 = 37.5 Maradona 1986 = 37.4 PASSING ACCURACY Pelé 1970 = 83.9 % Cruyff 1974 = 81.3 % Messi 2014 = 80.3 % Maradona 1986 = 79.8% PASSING ACCURACY OPP. HALF Pelé 1970 = 78.2 % Messi 2014 = 78.2 % Cruyff 1974 = 69.2 % Maradona 1986 = 67.6 % With the intention of organizing the information, I assigned 4 points to the first in each item, 3 points to the second, two points to the third and one point to the fourth. If there is a tie, it is scored from the maximum score: CHANCES CREATED + PASSES + PASSING ACCURACY +PASSING ACCURACY OPP.HALF Cruyff 1974 = 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 14 Pelé 1970 = 3 + 3 + 4 + 4 =14 Messi 2014 = 1 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 9 Maradona 1986 = 2 + 2 + 1 + 2 = 7 Considering these basic aspects, Cruyff and Pele had better performance in the creation of advanced game than Maradona and Messi. In soccer many "accepted truths" are really "accepted lies" when you analyze in more detail, I am not saying that this is the case, but if it is clear that this look gives us a clearer way to find the truth, beyond subjective appreciations. In my opinion, Johan Cruyff has been the best advanced game creator in history followed by Pele, Maradona, Messi, Zico, Di Stefano, Platini, Zidane, Ronaldinho, among others.
I also believed that story, but analyzing the subject the picture is different. Do you think that great figures like Jairzinho, Gerson, Rivelino and Tostao played for Pelé? Studies show that in 1970 Pele helped them more, than them to Pelé. For example, if we look at the chances created for his teammates, Pele made 28, Tostao 16, Rivelino and Gerson 15, Jairzinho 13 and Clodoaldo 7. By common sense, it is inconceivable that in a team with great figures, all play for one, you can not waste talent on behalf of one, you have to articulate the capabilities to achieve a great product, that happened in 1970, they articulated all and the driving had 2 leaders, Gerson as Deep-lying-Playmaker and Pelé as Advanced Playmaker. To say that the Brazilian team was playing for Pelé is an "accepted lie". At that point, I think Juan Ramón Verón was right.
Do you think that in the South American qualifiers, the Copa América, the Copa Libertadores and the Intercontinental Cup, Pele was not as influential as in 1970?
Pele's dribble is undervalued, his WCs and his reputation as a scorer have spread so much that he has made invisible his creative talent and the versatility of his dribble, for me, his dribbling is as good or better than the geniuses Maradona, Messi and Garrincha . I want to comment on several personal conclusions: 1. I think Maradona's dribble was something finer, as has been said, Maradona's left foot was a little better than Pele's right. 2. I also think that Pele's dribble was more versatile and complete, in the sum of its parts, integrating the right, left and head, the general dribbling of Pele was more productive than Maradona. 3. Messi's dribble is less showy than Maradona and less complete than Pelé, but very effective. It is a phenomenon on the diagonal, nobody stops it. 4. Garrincha, unlike Messi, was unstoppable by band, reached the bottom and attended. He added feints and was also very effective. Finally, I am sure that they are the 4 most fantastic dribbles in the history of football.
Ronaldo Nazario & Jairzinho should also be included in the list. In fact Jair was much better dribbler than Pele & more creative than Garrincha. Most of his dribbles leaded to goals or dangerous situation in opponents penalty area
I'm curious what you say, do you have any source or information that proves that Jairzinho's dribble was more dangerous than Pele? I do not think he was more creative than Garrincha, Jair was a prolific dribbler, I do not think he had Garrincha's repertoire of feints. For a TOP TEN of dribblers we can agree or disagree with Jairzinho, Ronaldo Nazario, Zidane, Best, Ronladinho, Cruyff, Mattews, Sivori, Baggio, Bergkamp, Dzajic, and others bigs dribblers. But Garrincha, Maradona, Messi and Pelé will never be missing, that's what I think.
I have World Cup 1970 for proof He completed triple the number of dribbles Pele did & was a constant dribbling threat in every game. Scored solo goals Pele even at the height of his career in 1962 WC missed one on one with the keeper Garricha had extraordinary acceleration and ball control. He had 1-2 tricks up his sleeve which he repeatedly used to get past defenders and cross the ball/cut inside. But it didn't worked every time especially when 2 defenders were surrounding him
Friend, that has already been discussed here, most of the great dribblers were unstoppable in their early years, and their dribble diminishes as age advances, you can not compare the best Jairzinho of 1970 (25 years), with the last Pele of 1970. Pele's best dribble was between 1960-66, at this time we almost did not see him with Brazil in WC 1962 and WC 1966, but we could see him with Santos FC (1962-63), where he scored many goals in solo . The same goes for Maradona, he was a prolific dribbler in 1982 and 1986, but in 1990 he was not the same, he even completed fewer dribbles than Pelé 1970. How many dribbles did Jairzinho complete in 1974? If you review information, it was not the same bargainer. You can only compare Jairzinho 1974 with Pelé 1970 and Maradona 1990. If you want to compare the Jairzinho 1970 dribble, do it with Pele 1962-63 (Santos FC) and Maradona 1986. Jairzinho missed two goals against the goalkeeper in the match with Portugal in 1966, he could not solve it, that happens to all players, whether they are big or not.
Can't rate him highly for his club career sorry. Even Benfica (European cup winner) seemed pathetitic defensively & dubious at their goal keeping. 30 years isn't too old for a player if you look at Messi for example. He's still in excellent shape (although a different era argument can be made here) Injury and drug abuse played a big role in Maradona's 1990 performance so you can't compare him with anyone
Pele too suffered injuries in two world cups due to which he couldn't play.If only he had played.... Many people say that Pele led a promiscuous life and his flings were equal in numbers to the goals that he scored in his career.If only he had led a disciplined life....
You did not answer, who did more dribbling, Pele 1970 or Jairzinho 1974 ?, both had the same age and that comparison is fairer. Denying a comparison of Maradona 1990 for a "injury" is absurd, in no game you see him "hurt", as if it happened with Pelé in 1966 who played limping for 55 minutes. Why refuse to value Pele from Santos FC? With this idea you could not rate George Best, Di Stefano, etc. an absurdity! Pele's dribbling was decisive for the conquest of the 1962 and 1963 Copa Libertadores, as well as the 1962 Intercontinental Cup. Do you know another player with such an influential dribble for the conquest of a club title?