InTheNet's Teaching Methods

Discussion in 'Education and Academia' started by Iceblink, Jun 3, 2005.

  1. Jacen McCullough

    Nov 23, 1998
    Maryland
    Re: Teaching Methods

    For starters, the reason you gave for why SOME people are against NCLB is only a partial answer. It's not that some students just can't do well in school, it's that some students just don't learn in the same way. There are different types of intelligences. Some people are good at book learning. Some people are better at interactive learning. There are students (my older brother for example) who languish away in a classroom environment, but could re-wire a house in a work environment. So that's what he did. He joined the school's vo-tech program and won awards in electrical engineering, eventually going to RIT. That's why those students still go to school. They are entitled to an education regardless of how they learn. If they learn through vocational training, then that's what they get in addition to their content courses.

    That ties into the biggest complaint about NCLB. NCLB bases ALL the rating on standardized test scores. Special education students, vo-tech students, etc, just don't learn that way. Thus, a school might receive a failing score if they had a large population of people like my older brother. He did lousy on the SAT, but because of what he learned through other programs, he got money to go to a top tech school. How does that make sense?
     
  2. Paddy31

    Paddy31 Member

    Aug 27, 2004
    Pukekohe, NZ
    Merchant of Venice Act II Scene 2

    LAUNCELOT
    Certainly my conscience will serve me to run from
    this Jew my master. The fiend is at mine elbow and
    tempts me saying to me 'Gobbo, Launcelot Gobbo, good
    Launcelot,' or 'good Gobbo,' or good Launcelot
    Gobbo, use your legs, take the start, run away. My
    conscience says 'No; take heed,' honest Launcelot;
    take heed, honest Gobbo, or, as aforesaid, 'honest
    Launcelot Gobbo; do not run; scorn running with thy
    heels.' Well, the most courageous fiend bids me
    pack: 'Via!' says the fiend; 'away!' says the
    fiend; 'for the heavens, rouse up a brave mind,'
    says the fiend, 'and run.' Well, my conscience,
    hanging about the neck of my heart, says very wisely
    to me 'My honest friend Launcelot, being an honest
    man's son,' or rather an honest woman's son; for,
    indeed, my father did something smack, something
    grow to, he had a kind of taste; well, my conscience
    says 'Launcelot, budge not.' 'Budge,' says the
    fiend. 'Budge not,' says my conscience.
    'Conscience,' say I, 'you counsel well;' ' Fiend,'
    say I, 'you counsel well:' to be ruled by my
    conscience, I should stay with the Jew my master,
    who, God bless the mark, is a kind of devil; and, to
    run away from the Jew, I should be ruled by the
    fiend, who, saving your reverence, is the devil
    himself. Certainly the Jew is the very devil
    incarnal; and, in my conscience, my conscience is
    but a kind of hard conscience, to offer to counsel
    me to stay with the Jew. The fiend gives the more
    friendly counsel: I will run, fiend; my heels are
    at your command; I will run.​
    http://www-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/merchant/merchant.2.2.html
    or what about A Midsummer Night's Dream, Act IV Scene 1

    OBERON
    Welcome, good Robin.
    See'st thou this sweet sight?
    Her dotage now I do begin to pity:
    For, meeting her of late behind the wood,
    Seeking sweet favours from this hateful fool,
    I did upbraid her and fall out with her;
    For she his hairy temples then had rounded
    With a coronet of fresh and fragrant flowers;
    And that same dew, which sometime on the buds
    Was wont to swell like round and orient pearls,
    Stood now within the pretty flowerets' eyes
    Like tears that did their own disgrace bewail.
    When I had at my pleasure taunted her
    And she in mild terms begg'd my patience,
    I then did ask of her her changeling child;
    Which straight she gave me, and her fairy sent
    To bear him to my bower in fairy land.
    And now I have the boy, I will undo
    This hateful imperfection of her eyes:
    And, gentle Puck, take this transformed scalp
    From off the head of this Athenian swain;
    That, he awaking when the other do,
    May all to Athens back again repair
    And think no more of this night's accidents
    But as the fierce vexation of a dream.
    But first I will release the fairy queen.
    Be as thou wast wont to be;
    See as thou wast wont to see:
    Dian's bud o'er Cupid's flower
    Hath such force and blessed power.
    Now, my Titania; wake you, my sweet queen.​
    http://www-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/midsummer/midsummer.4.1.html

    How's that for a slice of fried gold?
     
  3. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    The Bard's prose, as well as his poetry, are generally available in most public libraries. Surprised that such a thing befuddles you!

    Certainly, but such a concept would require that you utilize an open mind, and I doubt that you have such potential. Further, since D.C. United is now playing San Jose, I think the effort on your behalf would be foolhardy, so I'll watch the game and let you ponder your ego and your lexicon in singular pursuit.
     
  4. Metros Striker10

    Metros Striker10 New Member

    Jul 7, 2001
    Planet Earth
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Jacen, I agree with what you have said and wish that there were more stories like that. The problem is that not many people have that same interest or desire to want to learn and do something. There's way too many kids out there who have no motivation to learn or simply do something. They think that they can get by school by skateboarding all day like the guys on Viva La Bam or wearing bling like the guys in the latest rap video. I've seen a lot of this. So what happens is, they walk around school and don't do anything. They don't go to vo-tech, nor do they take some decent courses. I'm not saying that every kid needs to take both AP Calc and Stats before graduation, but to forget the idea of the study hall, and take a more demanding course. It's tough for me to explain. I personally think that every can work hard and achieve something. These NCLB standardize tests aren't that hard. The results that I have seen, really does seperate the kid who studys and works hard, from the student who barely gets by, or simply doesn't work hard because going to parties everyweekend and hanging out every night is the first priority. The SAT can't be compared to the NCLB tests because they are no where near the same level of toughness. But then again, the SAT is overrated. Many test takers simply can't handle the pressure, or just don't do well on those tests, and that's probably the reason why they remade the test and don't weigh the SAT the same way they once did. A lot of students get 1200s today, but 20 years ago, not so many did.

    Oh yeah, the study hall really needs to be taken away. They should put an end to the whole you need 26 credits minimum to graduate out of the possible 30 or whatever. Students should have to take the major courses and then the electives. There isn't any studying done in a study hall, besides the students who are doing homework from the night before. Most of the time they are either sleeping, listening to music, or playing cards. Plus, it really is unfair in terms of GPA. It boosts the GPA in a sense because it lessens the chance of a student from getting a low grade, which in turn, gives them a higher class rank then the kid who gets a B in a Calc class that wasn't necessary to take. It's their option to take it, but they should be rewarded for taking it.
     
  5. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member

    May 28, 2001
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Ever the coward, still not answering the question.
     
  6. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Helps them what? Bitch ever-so-smugly about how stupid and incompetent teachers are?
     
  7. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Really? Damn. That's news to pretty much every Shakespeare scholar active these past 400 years

    (oh, and Paddy: most people know that Shakespeare's plays contain a mixture of verse and prose passages, but teachers and scholars don't refer to "Shakespeare's prose" to describe those passages for the same reason that they don't refer to the prose of Arthur Miller, David Mamet, August Wilson, etc. -- unless they are specifically referring to the essays, reviews, autobiographical writings, whatever of those writers. In general, people will refer to Shakespeare's work as a dramatist and his work as a poet. Since he left no essays, etc, for the sake of clarity, you won't find to many references to Shakespeare's prose. Except for the intellectual stylings of people like IntheNet, that is, people who don't know what they're talking about. Speaking of which...)

    Sorry, genius. the "open mind" required for understanding such a blatant contradiction is the sort of open mind that believes 2+2 = Albany, New York. The methods discussed by Montessori and her followers are diametrically opposed to the aims and intentions of NCLB. Prove me wrong if you think otherwise.
     
  8. Paddy31

    Paddy31 Member

    Aug 27, 2004
    Pukekohe, NZ
    Re: Teaching Methods

    OK, InTheNet is not really making much sense when s/he says that kids should read Shakespeare's prose. However, "teachers and scholars" refer to "Shakespeare's prose" to differentiate from the verse sections of the plays. Its a commonly used term in English teaching, and the focus of an element of the GCSE course.

    I'm sorry that I had misunderstood your point in this case.
     
  9. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Proving Wanky A Moron: One Post at a Time!

    Prose and Verse in Shakespeare
    http://ise.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/literature/prose&verse.html

    Bantam Shakespeare Website: Contemporary explanations of Shakespeare's prose so you can better understand Elizabethan English
    http://www.randomhouse.com/bantamdell/shakespeare/

    The Shakespeare Play: A Drama in Rhythmic Prose
    http://www.canadianshakespeares.ca/a_shake_play.cfm

    Bookrags.Com: Shakespeare's Use of Poetry and Prose
    http://www.bookrags.com/essays/story/2005/5/5/131344/2490

    ---

    Asked and answered Samarkand!

    You might ignorantly call a female professional a "bitch" but I wouldn't.
     
  10. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Not a problem. It wasn't my point really, it was Samarkand's. But if you tell a university press you want to write a book on Shakespeare's prose, they'll look at you as oddly as they would if you say you want to explore the prose style of David Mamet.

    In any case, IntheNet: find a volume of Shakespeare's prose. You still haven't done that, genius.

    EDIT: A cursory glance of the MLA database indicates that a small handful of articles turn up if you search "Shakespeare's prose," mostly in King Richard III. But more precisely those essays deal with "prose in Shakespeare's plays, as distinct from the verse passages."

    I would imagine, given the superabundance of Shakespeare scholarship, one could find articles comparing the use of commas in various folio versions of the early texts, too.
     
  11. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    (1) [​IMG]

    ~

    The Oxford Shakespeare by W. J. Craig
    "The 1914 Oxford edition of the Complete Works of William Shakespeare ranks among the most authoritative published this century. The 37 plays, 154 sonnets and miscellaneous verse and prose constitute the literary cornerstone of Western civilization..."
     
  12. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Thank you for clarifying. Are we to assume, then, since you originally wrote...

    Hemingway's "The Old Man and the Sea," Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath," and Poe's "The Fall of the House of Usher" are all excellent American prose, while the Europeans certainly offer a bountiful crop: Tolstoy's "War and Peace," Dumas' "The Count of Monte Cristo," and any of Shakespeare's prose certainly should be emphasized in all grades."

    ... that you will only teach the prose passages of Shakespeare's plays? At what stage should students be introduced to the verse passages? Are the verse passages to be rendered into prose for younger students? Or do you not know enough to have been smart enough to have said "Shakepeare's plays" in the first place?
     
  13. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Dr. Wankler: I wise man once said, "When you find yourself in a hole, it is best to stop digging." This became the First Rule of Holes. Sage advice. Suggest you take it.
     
  14. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Umm, answer the question which I repeat for your convenience:

    Thank you for clarifying. Are we to assume, then, since you originally wrote...

    Hemingway's "The Old Man and the Sea," Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath," and Poe's "The Fall of the House of Usher" are all excellent American prose, while the Europeans certainly offer a bountiful crop: Tolstoy's "War and Peace," Dumas' "The Count of Monte Cristo," and any of Shakespeare's prose certainly should be emphasized in all grades."

    ... that you will only teach the prose passages of Shakespeare's plays? At what stage should students be introduced to the verse passages? Are the verse passages to be rendered into prose for younger students? Or do you not know enough to have been smart enough to have said "Shakepeare's plays" in the first place?
     
  15. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Prose: n. Ordinary language, not poetry.
    Webster's New World Dictionary.

    Most of us know the definition of the word but I see you're still digging.
     
  16. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Excuse me, troll: did anyone say "there's no prose in Shakespeare?" No one did. Most of us responded to the way you wrote "Shakespeare's prose," a reference which makes no sense given the ways people read and perform Shakespeare (unless you really are claiming that students should ONLY read prose passages in his plays, not the verse passages -- and which is why, when people are referring to the work Shakespeare is known for, they use the word "play" or "drama."

    Oh, and we're still waiting for your response to the simultaneous and non-sensical endorsement of Montessori methods and No Child Left Behind.
     
  17. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Look behind you... there's nobody there! I suppose I should chuckle at your asinine use of the Argumentum ad Populum... it is a favorite among juvenile writers. What other rhetorical devices you have in store? Should I tremble? Exactly whose "waiting" Wanky? I responded to your questions earlier and I did not link Montessori and NCLB but spoke of each individually! Scroll up to check.

    Learn to read. It helps your audience.
     
  18. Iceblink

    Iceblink Member

    Oct 11, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods


    My god, ITN... why are you not getting this?

    You talked about teaching Shakespeare's PROSE. Others pointed out that Shakespeare's work is part prose and part VERSE. The majority of it is verse.

    He asked if you planned only to teach the PROSE and to skip the VERSE entirely since you said that students should learn "Shakespeare's prose."

    Do you get it now?

    The only holes being dug in this thread are for Ophelia and YOU.
     
  19. Paddy31

    Paddy31 Member

    Aug 27, 2004
    Pukekohe, NZ
    I still want to know what age group the reading list suggested by IntheNet is for.

    So many unanswered questions
     
  20. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Teaching Methods


    oi.
     
  21. Paddy31

    Paddy31 Member

    Aug 27, 2004
    Pukekohe, NZ
    Re: Teaching Methods

    I think you did.

    later in the same post...

    This seems to indicate support for both.

    You suggest the Montessori method as a good way of building basic skills and also NCLB. They are somewhat different.

    Anyway, are you in favour of a centrally prescribed curriculum, or approved teaching methods?
     
  22. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    Iceblink: Since you started this post to inquire on my suggested "teaching methods" I seriously replied in post above. The "he" that you mention above is not the slightest interested in whether I would instruct all of the Bard's writing -- both prose and poetry -- indeed, the "he" skimmed through my initial post in reply to you looking for anything to sidetrack the post. The moron does that quite a bit. Satisfied that "he" found a way to parse "...and any of Shakespeare's prose..." into a complete denial of Shakespeake's poetry the "he" began digging....furiously. For the record, I did not mention any of E.A. Poe's poetry either in my initial post (I just refered to his prose) so when "he" exhausts the foolishness of his current reckless pursuit expect that to be a major touchstone of "his" upcoming posts.

    Further, you will see "he" was a bit confused when my ongoing support of the Department of Education's "No Child Left Behind" legislation seemed -- in "his" warped mind -- to intersect with my advocacy of the Montessori teaching method, which I surfaced in answer to your question. Scrolling up, you can these as distinct entities in my discussion. I mention this as "he" is no doubt going to cast dispersion in this direction as well.

    I should instead ask this of you. I intended my response to anwer the questions YOU posed in YOUR thread. Instead I see where this is heading... you too had no interest in this becoming a serious education thread but instead a inquisition for which I should have known better to play.
     
  23. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Re: Teaching Methods


    Where do you get the idea that only one person is pointing out weaknesses and inconsistencies in the content of your posts?
     
  24. Paddy31

    Paddy31 Member

    Aug 27, 2004
    Pukekohe, NZ
    http://www.montessorimagazine.com/magazinebody10.html

    http://www.ed.gov/nclb/methods/whatworks/doing.html

    These seem to be poles apart. Montessori allows room for experimentation and development of ideas in response to the child. NCLB is an attempt to bring consistency to teaching and remove useless teaching ideas, focussing only on what works.
     
  25. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Teaching Methods

    The Argumentum ad Populum surfaces its head again... anything else in your arsenal?
     

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