Post-match: International Friendly: USA vs Jamaica; June 5th 2019

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by tomásbernal, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    When putting a majority MLS team on the pitch, shake them by the shoulders before the game and remind them they aren't in MLS anymore and actually need to put some urgency in their game. I never thought much of Pomykal but when he got on the pitch with the European players like Weah, Soto, KDLF, Ledezma, at U20's his whole game just lit up and turns out he's actually a good player. There's a bunch of players like that in MLS. They are actually quite good and just need to get more international exposure to pick their game up. What we saw against Jamaica was Djordje/Roldan/Trapp midfield having a quiet Wednesday nite (MLS) game in Mapfre stadium.
     
  2. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    I know you are mostly correct and I also know that there really is no cure for the MLS' lazy attitude but it really should not be necessary to shake up the MLS players, they should do that themselves. If they were truly good players they would psyche themselves up and play at or near the top of their game. Having to be pushed to play well is unprofessional at best.

    The MLS is a league where mediocre play has become OK and is even rewarded. It is a reason they have lost viewers like me that want to see teams putting out effort to try to win every outing. Most teams, in fact every team I have watched this year, have long periods where they just go through the motions of playing so the have an excuse to shower after the game.

    But that is not a problem with the National team directly it is just one of the causes.

    Playing for the national team should never require external forces to get excited and play hard and the fact that it does says a lot about the poor developmental environment we have developed in this country.

    It also helps very little that the coach and other leaders are not handling the team well at all. We should have dumped every one of the older players that participated in the qualifying debacle because all they are teaching the kids is how to lose. We then could build a fresh team without the baggage introduced in the last cycle.
     
  3. GiallorossiYank

    GiallorossiYank Member+

    Jan 20, 2011
    NJ/Roma/Napoli
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Holden never calls out individual players. He was weak yesterday, Taylor and Lalas are so much better and I don’t like Lalas.

    It’s tough for these guys as they don’t want to be too critical
     
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  4. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Haiti has gone all the way to Chile to prepare for the Gold Cup.

    That'd be unthinkable for us, no?
     
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  5. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    Oh man. berhalter completely ignores players (just to quickly name a few) who are competent like Fabian Johnson, canouse, and Morales.

    Pick a side

    A) Berhalter sucks as a coach

    or

    B) He was given the job under the conditions that he is a puppet at his masters will and must please them and their golden egg royalty players (a.k.a Bradley and Altidore)

    It seems so hard for FW's and DM's to get into this team...……...hmmmmmm.
     
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  6. zhe fulano

    zhe fulano Member

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 31, 2010
    Florida Keys, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you are saying GB got out-coached. I agree. The issue now is whether he learns and improves or stays in his predictable zone. The latter will lead to many more games where he gets outcoached and we (the fans) get severely disappointed.
     
  7. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    I think it is a cultural thing....the mentality of US players is just not nuanced enough...the national team coaches cannot make players "think the game" ...(they can however pick players that do a la Holmes and not pick those that don't a la almost all of GBs pets) how many US players grew up playing pickup or street soccer and understand the game on a visceral level? There's a reason Dempsey is an all-time great.....

    if they haven't learned that by the time they are in their 20s and already professional they likely never will....is it just an intelligence thing im wondering? Athletically most Americans are on-par with or even superior to their foreign counterparts - even technically a lot are pretty good now - but between the ears - the US players are still often way behind their opponents...even those from underdeveloped countries....and that's really what matters when picking players not "lockerroom fit" or whether you have any prior connection at club level to the national team coach:rolleyes:

    Even on the U20s - there were a handful of US players out there who lack in this regard - but the team was strong enough to overcome it. The strong players in the u20 team seem to be able to think the game way better than this group did - so maybe there is a paradigm shift under way.....

    The best teams and players can think the game on a level that these US players cannot. And that doesn't even address the woeful technical level displayed in the game vs Jamaica...I mean these guys were missing wide open passes....that has nothing to do with system and everything to do with not being good enough. period.

    The problem is that being on the USMNT is still the only way for a lot of these players to advance their careers despite the growth of MLS so there is a bit of coddling and "thataboy" and "inner circle" stuff that will go on under a guy like GB...he wants to help his associates and comrades advance their lives.....even if they suck at soccer.
     
  8. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Jamaica 1-0 USA: US, in an ill-suited formation, were unable to overcome Jamaica's athleticism, organization, and physicality.

    I was finally able to watch the game. :D It wasn't all that horrible. But, then again, I have modest standards!

    1st half
    Man, Robinson struggled mightily. He seemed unprepared for Jamaica's physicality and athleticism. And when not under pressure, he was still horrible, which was understandable, given he's a true fullback. He did well at wingback in a 352 against France where he stayed outside, could run onto passes, and had closer support. Against Jamaica, he was tasked with being more of a possession passer and playmaker in 3421. That's not his game. Who would've been better in the role? Brek Shea. Pre-injury Saief. Nagbe. Holmes. Saucedo. Castillo.

    Roldan was the best player. He seemed to thrive in the argy-bargy of this Concacaf match. He created several openings.

    Despite the US's playing a compressed central midfield alignment,Jamaica were still able to run their game through the center circle as the box diagram attests. Trapp, Yueill, Roldan, and Mihailovic didn't offer enough of a resistance.

    Dangerous attacking movements were created, the team lacked the technical skills and pace to take to finish. That and Robinson's struggles were the biggest features of the half.

    Jamaica did a nice job of varying their line and their press.

    2nd Half:
    More of the same. And shooting from distance, which seemed part of Jamaica's strategy, finally paid off.

    Things perked up for the team once 3G abandoned the experiment and switched back to a 433. That and the introduction of Lima and Holmes helped turn things around.

    Conclusion:
    Robinson was ill-suited to the tactics. A speed forward(Morris) or a power forward(Altidore) would have been better than Sargent here. The central midfield can easily be upgraded. And how is Nagbe not on this roster?

    If tactics result in Robinson losing out to Lovitz/Ream, Trapp/Bradley starting at d-mid, and Adams starting at RB then one has to question the wisdom of those tactics.
     
  9. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    really missing a great chance to at least educate and inform the soccer-viewing audience in the US with these announcers that are currently on-air.

    What they say matters - it really trickles down to a lot of people who tune in and has a big impact on fan sentiment around the team - I suppose that's why they pick the guys they do.....
     
  10. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I don't think there's cultural issue with US players. These guys are perfectly fine with their club teams.
     
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  11. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    #286 adam tash, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
    How domestic players fare in MLS really has no correlation to how they might translate to the international game...

    It is very hard for many to grasp this. it is totally ILLOGICAL for this to be true.

    MLS is a house of mirrors. MLS teams need a certain # of domestic players and have different ways of going about building teams - bottomline...

    If American player X is playing for his MLS team and American player Z isn't - it really means nothing when comparing player X and Z. It should!

    but it doesn't.

    I'm pretty sure a decent manager could put together a lineup of domestic USL/MLS bench players that could beat the lineup vs Jamaica....which IS insane....

    but the way MLS has built itself ...is convulted, overly complex and really is not doing any favors to the USMNT....just because Trapp has "established" himself in MLS means nothing for USMNT.....

    the "game" of becoming a good and high paid MLS player has no connection to how good a US player one might be......
     
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  12. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    short-term it would not help. it would be a disaster.

    Long-term - it could . perhaps force a reality check that has been decades-delayed.

    the bar needs to be way higher than how do they do in concacaf.
     
  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    i mean a cultural thing as far as identity....how they experience and interact with the game as players is not conducive to success.

    not cultural in terms of how they socialize with each other as a team.
     
  14. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I understand that.
     
  15. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The idea is if a player does well in MLS they get a shot with the National Team. If they do well with the National Team they'll probably get more opportunities. Most national team operate along these lines with respect to their domestic leagues.
    Which comes across as some a great stinking strawman.
    Do you have anything substantiate the claim?

    Who stated it shouldn't?
    It was just friendly, man.
    What does Trapp have to do with MLS being 'overly complex'? What is 'overly complex' in this context?

    the "game" of becoming a good and high paid MLS player has no connection to how good a US player one might be......[/QUOTE]
     
  16. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The long-term benefits greatly outweigh the short-term problems, but USSF is too short-sighted to see that.
     
  17. SamsArmySam

    SamsArmySam Member+

    Apr 13, 2001
    Minneapolis, MN
    The more I think about the Jamaica game, the more it bothers me.

    I mean, the US could not connect on basic passes. Players didn't know where their teammates would be running.

    And when we pressed, same thing. It was disjointed, and people pressed without help from teammates. Made us look like the "monkey in the middle" game. We were the monkey hosting the game in our nation's capital.

    While it wasn't our A squad to be sure, that shouldn't happen with any senior US team that's had an extended camp to prepare. How can that be the end product after that much time in camp?

    That's squarely on the coaching.
     
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  18. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    [/QUOTE]
    I get the idea. I get it that doing well in MLS is and has been the pre-req for getting into the USMNT. I understand the logic and I think THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE......BUT MLS is WEIRD. MLS is just a very weird league that doesn't play players that it should a lot of times.

    you look at a player like jonathan lewis who made the gold cup roster but couldnt get on the field for NYC....that has never happened before...but lewis has acquitted himself well.

    look at miles robinson. He couldn't get on the field for Tata FOR YEARS...now he's an all-star level/usmnt callup in his first stretch of extended playing time...? does that really make sense to you?

    Loom at Yueill...He couldnt get on the field for SJ under the old regime...now he gets an extended stretch of playing time and he's a USMNT call-up?

    it works the other way too....Wondo SUX for the USMNT but he lights up MLS....how does that work?

    Roldan looks awesome for Seatlle but SUUUX for USMNT.
    etc

    there's no ryhme or reason as to who makes it and who doesn't in MLS, for the most part. IT IS A CRAPSHOOT. it is LUCK.

    Are you under a coach that plays americans? are you owned by the right team? is there a DP at your position?
    Do you play a position that uses DPs?

    These questions are more important to the career success of an american mlser than HOW GOOD THE PLAYER IS.

    THEREFORE, if anyone wants to compare MLS players and project how they would do on the USMNT...you can look at MLS play/success...but there is likely going to be MINIMAL or INSIGNIFICANT correlation between the 2.

    if USL jamaicans can beat a team of standout MLSers....what does it tell you about the worthiness of requiring that USMNT players "prove it in MLS" first?

    MLS is not the "proving ground" that it is considered as.

    What needs to happen is that there needs to be a coach in place who can see through the levels of BS that permeate the sport in the USA....who can discern who is good and who is not regardless of club success....b/c you cannot go by how MLS rates and values players if you want to have a good USMNT.
     
  19. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Even when not under pressure, England had trouble connecting passes against the Netherlands. This can happen when players are rusty, unfamiliar with one another, or totally unused to the coaches system.
     
  20. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, we went to a semi-final in Russia and lost to the Netherlands? Whew, I thought for a second there that we failed to qualify and we got smoked by Jamaica at home!

    GGG had weeks with this team. Then, he threw out an obviously putrid lineup that's begging to get abused.

    Worried about pace? Better have your fast wingbacks push waaaay up, then race back before your three slooooooow CB's get overrun! And don't forget to have slooooow, unathletic midfielders too, none of which are required to defend!

    Want to send in crosses? Better use ONE striker who's better when the ball's played to his feet!

    Want to defend? How about a non-eligible, helter-skelter Jackson Yueil who has no international experience, comes from a wildly different system, and even if he plays well can't play in the GC? And let's pair him with the most unathletic, awful-defensively, number 6 in Will Trapp! What could go wrong?

    Oh, the wingbacks can't connect with the midfield because Mihailovic (and to a slightly lesser extent, Roldan) is having the worst game in his life, and nobody understands what anybody else is doing? Better wait till after Jamaica scores to do anything to the lineup that was getting abused for 60 minutes, and had obvious holes from minute 10 onwards!

    This coach was supposed to be "cerebral". I think he's just arrogant and stupid, a dangerous combination.
     
  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Sigh. I am referring to the Nations Cup match that was played other day.
     
  22. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I watched England's game till ET, and I watched Portugal's game in full. I know about the Nations League.

    I'm referring to the fact that Gareth Southgate has built-in credibility with his team because he's actually had success with them. GGG does not have that.

    And also, Southgate was 1-1 until ET, having weathered a Dutch team for a long time. The 2 ET goals against were brainfarts by his defense.

    We were at home (not neutral France) against a minnow that didn't qualify for the Hex last year in Jamaica. Who were playing their B team.

    Apples and oranges.
     
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  23. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    England used a number of players who at club level had gotten little playing time this calendar year. There were a number dangerous, misplaced passes when under no pressure. These things are more likely to happen when players are rusty or unfamiliar with one another. This is independent of 'good will', competitive circumstance, or location.
     
  24. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Players making mistakes in isolation are not necessarily as a result of coaching failures. If, for example, I kick a ball into my own net, that's not the coach's fault. But, if I'm put in a position that I am unfamiliar with that causes me to make routine mistakes, then that is an issue. English players were not played in unfamiliar positions, nor were they put under undue pressure by the Netherlands in a way that is not commonplace in high-level European competition. The tactics were also reasonable, and exactly what Southgate has done for multiple years now. There were no surprises there, just surprisingly-bad errors for no reason.

    OUR errors were the direct result of coaching. We didn't have many smoking-gun brainfarts (except Steffen's pass to a Jamaican in his 18 yard box), but we saw a disjointed team unable to press, pass, or possess against a minnow at home. They were unable to do so because of GGG's decisions in that game. Because he decided to put players in unfamiliar roles. Because he decided to "try out" tactics that unraveled after 10 minutes.

    There's a big difference between why each team performed poorly, and a huge difference between the relative quality of each opponent (otherwise you could suggest that a similar 1-0 defeat to Brazil would be just as embarrassing).
     
  25. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    We need players with physical presence. Not sure why anyone would think that small players like Pulisic, Adams and McKennie are going to win midfield battles away to CONCACAF rude boys. Get accustomed to seeing more of what Jamaica did last night.
     

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